San Joaquins discussion

[randomguy65]

I've been riding the San Joaquins a lot recently for work, with a ~3 hour train trip and a ~2 hour Thruway trip. I've been fortunate enough to get the bi-levels with the proper cafe on all of 'em.

I hate, hate, hate that they're cutting service on the bi-levels too. A bag of chips and a warm soda or water is not acceptable on a trip that long.

Looks like it'll go into effect at the start of the new year.

 

[Harmon Shay]

So this means the same thing as is being done now on the Venture and Comet trainsets, but simply with a different vendor, now extended to all San Joaquin trains? Sounds like at least another year or two of waiting for the vending machine coaches by the time you add up the vending machine delays and the ongoing coach delays.

 

[Cal]

There are some changes to SJJPA food service announced at the November 22nd board meeting. It sounds like the California Cars will switch from a staffed cafe car to a complimentary snack station, to match the Venture cars. Vending is delayed due to unspecified regulatory challenges.

Nooo I love the California cafes.

 

[randomguy65]

It appears the SJJPA couldn't wait until the end of the year, the cheap b*stards.

All San Joaquins trains no longer have cafe service, including the bi-levels. Grab-n-go only!

 

[Harmon Shay]

Does that mean the San Joaquin bi-level cafe cars go into storage, or maybe just get used for axle count?

 

[GDRRiley]

Does that mean the San Joaquin bi-level cafe cars go into storage, or maybe just get used for axle count?

They'll likely get used for axle count for now but given their layout they aren't really ideal for a coach car and surfliner isn't going to trade their cars which are coach on the 2nd floor and cafe below

 

[Cal]

They'll likely get used for axle count for now but given their layout they aren't really ideal for a coach car and surfliner isn't going to trade their cars which are coach on the 2nd floor and cafe below

Can't they be slapped onto Capitol Corridor sets just as a lounge area? Wouldn't change operations at all, just have it on the set and let people chill there if they want.

 

[randomguy65]

Can't they be slapped onto Capitol Corridor sets just as a lounge area? Wouldn't change operations at all, just have it on the set and let people chill there if they want.

All bi-level sets on the SJ currently have a Comet coach used for axle count. They'll need to keep the cafes on the bi-level sets until that's resolved or when all the Venture sets enter service.

 

[GDRRiley]

Can't they be slapped onto Capitol Corridor sets just as a lounge area? Wouldn't change operations at all, just have it on the set and let people chill there if they want.

There are 14 of them so not enough to give every CC set 2 and some will still be used by San Joaquin trains until even more ventures or some other car type gets ordered.

 

[Harmon Shay]

They'll likely get used for axle count for now but given their layout they aren't really ideal for a coach car and surfliner isn't going to trade their cars which are coach on the 2nd floor and cafe below

Thanks for the info. That was my guess. I think they're using one set of Comet cars in LA now and one set in San Joaquin service, so I assume that means there will be fewer of those available for axle count service.

 

[Cal]

There are 14 of them so not enough to give every CC set

There wouldn't need to be one on every train since it wouldn't be marketed or sold differently, it would just be there. But whole thing is nill since axle cars are needed.

 

[Trogdor]

Can't they be slapped onto Capitol Corridor sets just as a lounge area? Wouldn't change operations at all, just have it on the set and let people chill there if they want.

If a car isn’t needed for axle count purposes, neither Amtrak nor the state of California are going to pay to lug a car back and forth (including extra fuel burn and higher maintenance costs), just to let people “chill” for a bit.

 

[Cal]

If a car isn’t needed for axle count purposes, neither Amtrak nor the state of California are going to pay to lug a car back and forth (including extra fuel burn and higher maintenance costs), just to let people “chill” for a bit.

Unfortunately true.

 

[Neil Rubin]

By "zig-zag" I am assuming you mean the route jogging over to the Antelope Valley/Palmdale, not its path over the Tehachapis and the San Gabriels, that is quite straight for mountain railroads. The jog over to Palmdale was due to political, not engineering, considerations. Antelope Valley interests lobbied very hard not to be bypassed and were successful. There was an alternative over Tejon Pass, roughly parallel to Interstate 5 and a pretty straight shot between LA and Bakersfield, but politics won out. Also, I have heard that Tejon Ranch was pretty adamantly opposed to it crossing their land and put their thumb on the scale, too.

I often see people criticizing the choice of the Antelope Valley route rather than the Tejon Pass route or the choice of the Pacheco Pass route over the Altamont Pass route as being due to the power of certain politicians forcing an inferior design on the system. But I find it interesting that the below map appeared in a 1994 report from researchers at the University of California Transportation Center. Leavitt (1994).

This study looked at a bunch of possible upgrades to existing lines in the state and at two possible new-build high-speed corridors, one in the central valley and the other on a coastal route. It favored the central valley route and specifically favored the route in the map below. It's striking to me just how similar this map is to what CAHSR ultimately settled on as their design. The terminals are the same (L.A. Union Station and a new S.F. Transbay Terminal). The study considered both Palmdale and Tejon Pass routes and favored Palmdale because it estimated the time cost was only 5 minutes and noted the (largely correct) predictions of rapid population growth in the Antelope Valley. The biggest difference from what CAHSR settled on is that this plan had no HSR service to Orange County or San Diego, but rather would have focused on upgrading LOSSAN to improve service there. That's arguably a huge and hugely expensive change in the overall plan (assuming it all gets built) for political reasons. There are a lot more votes in Orange Country, the Inland Empire, and San Diego County than in the Antelope Valley. 125-mph dedicated passenger tracks between L.A. and Anaheim are certainly going to be useful for other passenger services, but they won't even carry that many HSR trains and add plenty to the overall cost of "CAHSR."

Otherwise, the big differences are: more stations in the central valley, stations in downtowns in the central valley rather than closer to Route 99, and deletion of suburban stations at Palo Alto and Santa Clarita. Each of these was influenced by politics, and at least the station deletions seem to me to significantly reduce system utility to satisfy NIMBYs.

There are a lot of tradeoffs in this sort of thing, and it's at least interesting that a few academic transportation researchers working in Berkeley in the early 1990s reached the same conclusions on so many of the major tradeoffs as were reached in a much more elaborate process decades later.

 

[randomguy65]

It appears the SJJPA couldn't wait until the end of the year, the cheap b*stards.

All San Joaquins trains no longer have cafe service, including the bi-levels. Grab-n-go only!

Spoke too soon and was incorrect. I based this off a Reddit post (a photo) + a report from a friend. Seems that was a one time issue, perhaps due to staffing? My apologies for inaccurate info.

Currently riding 711 which is still using a staffed cafe car.

 

[desertflyer]

The next SJJPA Board Meeting is January 24th in Sacramento, but also can be joined by members of the public on Zoom for those of you who are interested in attending: https://sjjpa.com/event/sjjpa-january-24-2025-board-meeting-1030-am/

 

[MARC Rider]

According to this hand-out, the SP cars were wonderful. I think this was from my once in a lifetime on the San Joaquin Daylight in the summer of '68.
View attachment 37948

View attachment 37949

Actually, not a bad looking menu for a corridor train. And they did have an attendant. I would be happy with a grab and go menu made by Pret a Manger with the option to pay at an automated kiosk. Everybody complains about surly Amtrak OBS, here's an opportunity to avoid that.

 

[Cal]

Moderators are digging into the urbanist talk, and I'm all here for it.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Moderators are digging into the urbanist talk, and I'm all here for it.

Interesting that ad talking about US congestion uses a photo from the UK - looks like the M25 based on the road signs.

 

[cirdan]

If a car isn’t needed for axle count purposes, neither Amtrak nor the state of California are going to pay to lug a car back and forth (including extra fuel burn and higher maintenance costs), just to let people “chill” for a bit.

True of course.

Although one might have hoped that if there was one place in the world where the value of a place to chill might override such pedantries of logic and reality, it might be in California