SEPTA's 'Doomsday Plan'

[afigg]

The transportation funding bill was passed by the state Senate and House and will be signed by the Governor early next week. So SEPTA can put away the doomsday plan and instead pull out the maintenance, repair, and system expansion project plans.

The bill, BTW, includes up to $144 million a year for "multimodal" projects which include airports, rail, pedestrian, and bike path projects. While I would expect airport authorities will go the money, there should be more money available for Keystone corridor upgrades.

 

[Nathanael]

"Multimodal" is a vague term, but it's possible SEPTA might be able to land some of it for the various planned rail/bus transfer stations.

Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!

Pittsburgh's T has been in retrenchment mode, and this should help it out a lot too.

 

[AlanB]

Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!

Except for the 15 line, whose PCC's were extensively rebuilt, all other lines use LRV's.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.

 

[fairviewroad]

Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.

Other than nostalgia reasons, there would be no point (IMO) in replacing the Subway Surface cars with

PCC's. The current Kawasaki cars are reliable workhorses that have been plying the streets for more than

three decades. They're not pretty, but they're a staple in west/southwest Philadelphia and I'd imagine that

people who use them are probably more attached to them than to PCC cars, which are several generations

removed for most people by now. I rode those Kawasaki cars every day for 4 years when I lived in Philly

in the 90's. Never once had one break down on me.

Edit to add: I can't speak to their more recent reliability...I still manage to sneak in a ride once or twice a year,

but certainly don't have the day in, day out experience like I used to. But considering that three of those subway-surface

routes operate 24/7, the Kawasaki cars have more than proved their worth.

 

[afigg]

Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.

Why would SEPTA do that? Much better use of money to buy new rolling stock if they have the funds available. If they are restoring service to Trolley routes 23 and 56 with a substantial investment in improvements, they may have to procure ADA compliant equipment depending on the regulations on ADA compliance regarding restoration of service after so many years of buses. Better to get modern equipment.

The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (64 page PDF) has the restorations of trolley routes 23 and 56 listed in the unfunded capital needs section with estimates of $189 million for infrastructure improvements and $130 million for purchase of new vehicles. The unfunded capital needs through FY2025 total $4.1 billion, so the additional state funding will be put to use to address the long core capital project list.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I grew up in West Philadelphia and back then the Kawasaki trolleys were new. They worked but they weren't very comfortable. The old PCC's were more comfortable and they wouldn't have broken down so much if SEPTA had actually maintained them.

If they choose to buy modern LRV's, at least buy something that's decently fast and comfortable. Low-floor LRV's are horrors to ride, they feel like riding in a huge bathtub. Get high-floors with wheelchair lifts instead.

Besides, SEPTA has all those PCC's in storage, why not make some use out of them?

And WMATA is going all-out stupid with their "streetcar" project, using low-floor vehicles at only 30 mph out to the 'burbs! Dumb planners! Don't expect me to ride!

 

[Eric S]

Isn't the trend (almost everywhere) in non-heavy rail transit (so including light rail, streetcar, and hybrids of the two, but excluding subway/metro) to move to low-floor vehicles and away from high-floor vehicles? I believe that this is indeed the case. Evidently ramps from low-floor vehicles are more reliable/easier to maintain than lifts from high-floor vehicles. And, boarding/de-boarding is quicker with low-floor vehicles.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Isn't the trend (almost everywhere) in non-heavy rail transit (so including light rail, streetcar, and hybrids of the two, but excluding subway/metro) to move to low-floor vehicles and away from high-floor vehicles? I believe that this is indeed the case. Evidently ramps from low-floor vehicles are more reliable/easier to maintain than lifts from high-floor vehicles. And, boarding/de-boarding is quicker with low-floor vehicles.

And low-floor vehicles are slow, uncomfortable, ugly, can't carry many passengers, generally unreliable, and boast no tourist appeal. I'm sure that the ramp is better than a lift, but all that underfloor equipment in a high-floor has to go somewhere, and that's where problems happen.

 

[Ryan]

And WMATA is going all-out stupid with their "streetcar" project, using low-floor vehicles at only 30 mph out to the 'burbs! Dumb planners! Don't expect me to ride!

What the heck are you talking about here? D. is doing streetcars, but they don't go "all the way out to the 'burbs". Maryland is doing the Purple Line, which runs through the suburbs.

The only project WMATA is going is the Silver Line, which does go "all the way out to the 'burbs" but uses the same rolling stock as the rest of the system.

 

[AlanB]

And low-floor vehicles are slow, uncomfortable, ugly, can't carry many passengers, generally unreliable, and boast no tourist appeal. I'm sure that the ramp is better than a lift, but all that underfloor equipment in a high-floor has to go somewhere, and that's where problems happen.

I won't argue aesthetics with you, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you are wrong about carrying capacity. San Diego's original high floor LRV's carried 96 commuters. The newer low floor cars carry either 104 or 102 commuters. Up in Portland their high floors carry 166, their low floors carry 172. And as someone who grew up riding the PCC trolley cars on the Newark City Subway, I an assure you that all LRV's have a higher carrying capacity than any trolley ever did.

As for that equipment, much of it goes to the roof where it is actually far more accessible than ever before. The MTA here in NY is finding that having the AC units on top of the commuter rail cars as a modular unit is a wonderful thing. They can replace a failed unit in just a few hours now instead of the days of work that a car used to face.

The same hold true for moving LRV equipment up top. Now you don't have to lift the entire car off of its trucks to get at most of the equipment, save the traction motors of course.

 

[fairviewroad]

Besides, I don't think "tourist appeal" is much of an issue for SEPTA's subway-surface routes. They don't exactly go to the touristy parts

of town.

 

[Nathanael]

Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!

Except for the 15 line, whose PCC's were extensively rebuilt, all other lines use LRV's.

Yes, LRVs which are going to need to be replaced soon. The newest Kawasaki LRVs in Philly are from *1982* and are already over 30 years old. San Diego is busily replacing similarly-aged equipment.
The reason all the subway-surface lines were on the "axe list" for the doomsday plan (though only in 2018) was anticipated lack of equipment -- they're going to start running out of LRVs due to normal age and wear and tear in five or so years. It's far more expensive for SEPTA to operate buses than it is to operate subway-surface, but if they couldn't afford to replace the LRVs, calculations are different!

The replacement of the subway-surface stock will provide an opportunity to get level-boarding low-floor wheelchair-accessible LRVs for the first time in Philadelphia. These are needed: no busy city can afford to delay an LRV to operate a lift. Recent low-floor LRVs are very nice (I've ridden them in several cities) -- early models rode a bit rough, the way low-floor buses still do, but recent models ride smooth as anything, assuming the track's maintained.

 

[cirdan]

Besides, SEPTA has all those PCC's in storage, why not make some use out of them?

Do they still have significant numbers in storage? I would have thought that after the cars they sold to places like Kenosha nd San Francisco, plus the ones they re-engineered for the 15, that anything that's left is probably not worth the effort, especially after all those years exposed to the elements.

 

[cirdan]

As for that equipment, much of it goes to the roof where it is actually far more accessible than ever before. The MTA here in NY is finding that having the AC units on top of the commuter rail cars as a modular unit is a wonderful thing. They can replace a failed unit in just a few hours now instead of the days of work that a car used to face.

Plus having the heavy stuff on the roof means you have a higher center of gravity and that means the car rocks more gently (lower frequency) which makes it more comfortable.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.

The reason those aforemetioned low-floors had higher capacity than the high-floors is because they are bi-artics.

Many light-rail accidents involve collisions with cars. When a car hits a low-floor, a lot more dangerous than hitting a high-floor.

Plus, high-floors always have higher speed than low-floors.

The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area. You don't need very high capacity, you don't need articulated vehicles. This is not the Newark City Subway or the N Judah.

I'm surprised that no one likes high-floors anymore.

 

[AlanB]

The reason those aforemetioned low-floors had higher capacity than the high-floors is because they are bi-artics.

The length of the original LRV in San Diego is 76 feet. The length of the newest car is 79.1; virtually the same size!

Many light-rail accidents involve collisions with cars. When a car hits a low-floor, a lot more dangerous than hitting a high-floor.

I'd love to see some stats backing up this assertion.

Plus, high-floors always have higher speed than low-floors.

This also seems to fly in the face of reality. Returning to San Diego again the first LRV they ever brought, a high-floor, has a top speed of 50 MPH. The newest cars all have a top speed of 55 MPH.

The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area. You don't need very high capacity, you don't need articulated vehicles. This is not the Newark City Subway or the N Judah.

Another assertion that doesn't seem to be supported by the facts; sorry! In 2011 Philly's subway-surface cars averaged 76.15 trips per revenue hour. And I suspect that number is being pulled down a bit by the lower capacity PCC cars running on the #15 line.

San Fran averaged 80.73, only slightly better. I can't break out the Newark subway from the rest of NJT's light rail systems, but NJT averaged 105.74 trips per rev hour, much better than both of the preceeding systems. And the national average is 77.5, meaning that SEPTA is right in the middle. It's not the busiest, but it is also not the emptiest system either.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, 55 mph is pretty fast. I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it. Oh well, I guess I ust like PCC's too much and hate bathtub rides too much. I'm sure you can understand.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it.

Yeah, clearly not worth it to waste time hunting down nonexistent facts to back wild and unfounded assertions. I like PCCs too, but that doesn't lead me to make stuff up about modern designs.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it.

Yeah, clearly not worth it to waste time hunting down nonexistent facts to back wild and unfounded assertions. I like PCCs too, but that doesn't lead me to make stuff up about modern designs.

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

Then again, one could go way out and argue that all high-speed trains are high-floor. But I'm not that one.

 

[Ryan]

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

WMATA doesn't have any streetcars.

 

[AlanB]

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.

And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.

And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.

That's interesting too, you would think the smaller and lighter cars could go faster. And more agencies are building light rail instead of heavy rail, while not building interurbans that could serve suburbs very well.

One mistake that SEPTA has not made, which I applaud, is buying intercity buses to run as mini commuter rail. I'm baffled as to why agencies keep buying intercity buses to get to the suburbs.

 

[afigg]

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

Then again, one could go way out and argue that all high-speed trains are high-floor. But I'm not that one.

According to the wikipedia entry on the Inekon streetcars type that DC brought years ago, their top speed is 70 kph or 43 mph. Which is a reasonable top speed for a streetcar that runs in city traffic for much of the route and makes frequent stops for use in shorter range trips. The streetcars won't be running on open highways in DC.

As others have pointed out, the DC streetcar system is not part of WMATA, but is being implemented by DC DOT and funded by the city. See the DCstreetcar.com website for info, photos, reports, maps. With any luck, the initial H Street segment will be running by February or March. Then we can see if the low floor streetcars have a notably poor ride.

 

[Anderson]

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

WMATA doesn't have any streetcars.

I sense a reference to the Columbia Pike project, if I'm not mistaken.