SEPTA's 'Doomsday Plan'

[AlanB]

Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.

And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.

That's interesting too, you would think the smaller and lighter cars could go faster. And more agencies are building light rail instead of heavy rail, while not building interurbans that could serve suburbs very well.

Just to be clear here since we seem to be throwing lots of words around;
Heavy Rail means subways and L's, like NYC subway or the Chicago L.

LIght Rail doesn't mean a lighter vehicle. The "light" in light rail refers to the fact that the cars carry fewer passengers than their heavy rail counterparts. They're light on passenger carrying capacity. But some light rail cars are just as heavy in physical weight at their Heavy Rail cousins.

Light rail trains can mix with traffic, unlike Heavy rail trains which cannot. Light rail trains typically spend more time running in a private ROW than in mixed traffic lanes.

Streetcars are generally lighter in weight than their Light rail cousins, generally have slower speeds because they dont need higher speeds, and they spend more than 90% of their run in the street mixing with cars.

At least those are the official definitions, as there is some blurring of the lines between Streetcar & light rail. Like for example, the new Sugar House Streetcar in Salt Lake City. Technically that should not be called a Streetcar, since at least initially it will spend most of its run in a private ROW and not in a street. And at least initially, it will be using the same cars used by all the light rail lines in SLC.

And out on the west coast, the Tacoma Link Light rail line uses the same cars as Portland's Streetcar. But because Tacoma Link spends a majority of its run in a private ROW, it is classified as light rail. But down in Portland, because the cars spend most of their time mixing with traffic, they're classed as Streetcars.

Confused yet? :unsure: :lol:

 

[MattW]

I'll also add that Atlanta's streetcar project is using true light rail vehicles, the Siemens S70 which I believe can operate at up to 70mph, but the project will only run them in mixed traffic though the plan is to eventually connect to a more conventional light rail system.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, you bet I'm confused. I give up trying to understand rail transit, I guess I'm not a "light rail person".

 

[cirdan]

I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.

It's all physics. Think of it like a pendulum or a metronome.

A long pendulum swings slowly. It takes a long time to complete a swing cycle and get back to its original position.

A short pendulum is much faster.

Think of a grandfather clock versus a tabletop clock.

Think of drums. The smaller the drum, the higher the pitch.

Your light rail car is like a pendulum. The suspension allows it to swing and the distance to the center of gravity determines how fast it swings.

The higher the center of gravity, the slower the swing.

Old fashioned light rail cars had the heavy stuff under the floor and close to the suspension, hence a short pendulum.

A modern light rail car has it on the roof and a long way from the suspension, hence a long pendulum.

A slow swing is more comfortable than a fast one. It's less abrupt. It's more predictable.

Of course the trade off is that with a high center of gravity, it's also easier to derail and easier to topple over. But generally cars are designed to be sufficiently stable that that won't happen.

 

[Nathanel]

The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area.

This is not an accurate description of University City. Last I heard, these routes are pretty busy Center City to University City.

 

[cirdan]

The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area.

This is not an accurate description of University City. Last I heard, these routes are pretty busy Center City to University City.

The only sub-surface line I've done end to end is the 10, and thus I don't know if that one is typical or not. But whereas that area isn't exactly pretty or well looked after by any stretch, it still has a lot of people of all ages living in it, and they all need to get around. As such there should still be a lot of ridership potential.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.

It's all physics. Think of it like a pendulum or a metronome.

A long pendulum swings slowly. It takes a long time to complete a swing cycle and get back to its original position.

A short pendulum is much faster.

Think of a grandfather clock versus a tabletop clock.

Think of drums. The smaller the drum, the higher the pitch.

Your light rail car is like a pendulum. The suspension allows it to swing and the distance to the center of gravity determines how fast it swings.

The higher the center of gravity, the slower the swing.

Old fashioned light rail cars had the heavy stuff under the floor and close to the suspension, hence a short pendulum.

A modern light rail car has it on the roof and a long way from the suspension, hence a long pendulum.

A slow swing is more comfortable than a fast one. It's less abrupt. It's more predictable.

Of course the trade off is that with a high center of gravity, it's also easier to derail and easier to topple over. But generally cars are designed to be sufficiently stable that that won't happen.

While this may be true, I have experienced less stable rides in top-heavy vehicles than bottom-heavy vehicles, I'm not sure why. For example, the ride on a bottom-heavy 102DL3 is more stable than on a top-heavy G4500 or J4500.

 

[afigg]

SEPTA has announced the highlights of what it plans to do with the new funding. Philadelphia Inquirer: SEPTA announces ambitious capital-improvement plan.

With new state funding on the way from the recently signed transportation law, SEPTA has switched from doomsday threats to promises of a grand restoration.

SEPTA will move quickly to replace aging vehicles and infrastructure, to keep trains and trolleys running on routes that had been threatened with extinction, deputy general manager Jeffrey Knueppel told the SEPTA board Thursday.

SEPTA hopes to double its annual spending for vehicle purchases and construction projects to $600 million within five years, Knueppel said. Currently, SEPTA's capital budget is about $300 million a year; increasing contributions from the state are expected to incrementally boost that amount each year.

SEPTA has posted a 19 page viewgraph presentation which lists the projects by phase for all parts of the system. For rolling stock, new electric locomotives are in phase 1, which could be the rumored 10 unit ACS-64 order to replace the AEM-7s. New trolley cars are phase 2.

For railroad stations shared with Amtrak, Exton is in phase 1 while Paoli is in Phase 5. But since Paoli is to become the Paoli Transportation Center, the plans may be to try to land a TIGER grant to help fund the new station.

 

[Acela150]

SEPTA has announced the highlights of what it plans to do with the new funding. Philadelphia Inquirer: SEPTA announces ambitious capital-improvement plan.

With new state funding on the way from the recently signed transportation law, SEPTA has switched from doomsday threats to promises of a grand restoration.

SEPTA will move quickly to replace aging vehicles and infrastructure, to keep trains and trolleys running on routes that had been threatened with extinction, deputy general manager Jeffrey Knueppel told the SEPTA board Thursday.

SEPTA hopes to double its annual spending for vehicle purchases and construction projects to $600 million within five years, Knueppel said. Currently, SEPTA's capital budget is about $300 million a year; increasing contributions from the state are expected to incrementally boost that amount each year.

For rolling stock, new electric locomotives are in phase 1, which could be the rumored 10 unit ACS-64 order to replace the AEM-7s. New trolley cars are phase 2.

New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.

Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!

 

[afigg]

New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.

Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!

The viewgraph presentation I linked to is a SEPTA document. The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (linked to earlier in this thread) lists a regional rail car and locomotive acquisition program to replace the electric locomotives as well as the Silverliner IVs as an unfunded program. So these are official SEPTA plans for better or worse despite your belief that SEPTA has been trying to ditch the push-pull for years. SEPTA now has more money, so they are advancing the purchase of new electric locomotives, presumably because of the opportunity presented by the Siemens ACS-64 production run.

As for ordering new bi-level cars, would the Bombardier multi-level cars used by NJ Transit to operate to NYP fit through the Center City tunnel? MARC is buying a bunch of them, so why not SEPTA?

 

[PRR 60]

New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.

Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!

The viewgraph presentation I linked to is a SEPTA document. The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (linked to earlier in this thread) lists a regional rail car and locomotive acquisition program to replace the electric locomotives as well as the Silverliner IVs as an unfunded program. So these are official SEPTA plans for better or worse despite your belief that SEPTA has been trying to ditch the push-pull for years. SEPTA now has more money, so they are advancing the purchase of new electric locomotives, presumably because of the opportunity presented by the Siemens ACS-64 production run.
As for ordering new bi-level cars, would the Bombardier multi-level cars used by NJ Transit to operate to NYP fit through the Center City tunnel? NARC is buying a bunch of them, so why not SEPTA?

Yes, the Bombardier NJT multi-levels can operate through the center city tunnel.

 

[Nathanael]

The "Phases" in SEPTA's new capital improvement plan confused the heck out of me. Different programs have different numbers of phases. Some of the programs seem to have incredibly urgent things in phase 5, while others have things which could probably be put off in phase 1 ("Parking Expansion Program Partnership Opportunities").

I suspect the phasing is only within each department, and a separate decision will be made as to which departments get priority allocation of funds.

Some of the departments' descriptions are even odder: "Media/Elwyn Catenary" is the first *three* phases of "Railroad R.O.W. power program". You'd think that would be broken down into more specific descriptions if it's in three separate phases... Similar vagueness is present in "Track Program".

Anyway, thank goodness that SEPTA finally has some money to start catching up on its backlog.

 

[afigg]

The "Phases" in SEPTA's new capital improvement plan confused the heck out of me. Different programs have different numbers of phases. Some of the programs seem to have incredibly urgent things in phase 5, while others have things which could probably be put off in phase 1 ("Parking Expansion Program Partnership Opportunities").

I suspect the phasing is only within each department, and a separate decision will be made as to which departments get priority allocation of funds.

The viewgraphs are a public presentation, not a detailed schedule planning document. The phases are probably self-contained to each major system and are a rough estimate timeframe at present.

There is news this week on SEPTA looking at ordering 36 bi-level coaches to provide peak capacity: Double-decker train cars for SEPTA?. There is a clearance study underway to determine if the prospective bi-levels will fit.

The article also states that SEPTA is looking to increase the electric locomotive fleet to 12 units, which suggests that they may be planning to order 12 ACS-64s. The order has to be put out for a public bid, but I don't see who other than Siemens would be willing to provide a competitive bid for 12 electric locos. Could be a very good year for the Siemens Sacramento plant with an order for passenger diesel locos and a piggy-back order for 12 additional ACS-64s.

Also, with $600 million in TIGER grant funds in the FY14 appropriations, SEPTA could apply for a grant for a new/rebuild intermodal station project or two.

 

[Nathanael]

Also, with $600 million in TIGER grant funds in the FY14 appropriations, SEPTA could apply for a grant for a new/rebuild intermodal station project or two.

If they could ever nail down the plans for Paoli, that would be a worthwhile project for TIGER funds.