September Surprise from Amtrak

[Ryan]

That's nice, but it isn't the September Surprise (and it isn't 100% factual - low bucket sleepers are still out there).

I don't know how the bucket pricing structure has changed but I can relate an actual experience.

You also don't appear to know the difference between an anecdote and data. The fact that you weren't able to secure a low bucket ticket for your particular trip doesn't mean that they no longer exist.

Perhaps the 50% bonus points is not the Amtrak surprise

Perhaps nothing. Something that has already been announced, by definition, is not a surprise.

Too bad that even folks here who have read the PIP have chosen to forget that part, and are going on and on about something that cannot be done this year.

I haven't chosen to forget that - I've mentioned both that I recall reading that an different plan had been conceived that allowed them to do the work without the switch (I really wish I could find it) and that a September Surprise doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to start the service right away.

 

[Ryan]

As far as "racing to make a cutoff window", that decision is made at Cleveland. The few minutes extra only comes into play in the narrow case where the train just barely makes the cutoff at CLE by whatever amount of time the switching takes and would only delay the start of work by the few minutes that it takes. Can't see that being a huge issue.

The decision is made at Cleveland on the basis of there not being any switching done in Pittsburgh. If there were through cars in Pittsburgh, the "Cleveland cutoff" time would either not be there (i.e. a Pittsburgh cutoff instead of a Cleveland cutoff), or an earlier time would be specified at Cleveland.

And none of that precludes a change being made to implement this service before the tunnel work is over. If you add 15 minutes to the run time between CLE and the work site, either the CLE cutoff becomes 0315, or CSX accepts the fact that they MAY have to start work up to 15 minutes late. Certainly the 0330 cutoff provides some padding, so even if the train leaves CLE at 0320 and spends 15 extra minutes in PGH, it's possible that it'll get through the work site on time.

There's a little bit more involved in cutting a car than just opening the coupler and pulling away. You have to set handbrakes on the cars being cut, you have to shut off the HEP, you have to disconnect the HEP cables and the air hoses, separate the train, close the HEP loops, do an air test, etc. All that is on top of the normal station work (i.e. letting passengers off and on the train).

Thanks for stating the obvious - I'm well aware of that.

 

[Trogdor]

As far as "racing to make a cutoff window", that decision is made at Cleveland. The few minutes extra only comes into play in the narrow case where the train just barely makes the cutoff at CLE by whatever amount of time the switching takes and would only delay the start of work by the few minutes that it takes. Can't see that being a huge issue.

The decision is made at Cleveland on the basis of there not being any switching done in Pittsburgh. If there were through cars in Pittsburgh, the "Cleveland cutoff" time would either not be there (i.e. a Pittsburgh cutoff instead of a Cleveland cutoff), or an earlier time would be specified at Cleveland.

And none of that precludes a change being made to implement this service before the tunnel work is over. If you add 15 minutes to the run time between CLE and the work site, either the CLE cutoff becomes 0315, or CSX accepts the fact that they MAY have to start work up to 15 minutes late. Certainly the 0330 cutoff provides some padding, so even if the train leaves CLE at 0320 and spends 15 extra minutes in PGH, it's possible that it'll get through the work site on time.

If you've ever worked with freight railroads, especially related to Amtrak operations, you'd understand how picky they can be about the tiniest amounts of time when they want to be (which, when it's in their favor to do so, is all the time).

There's a little bit more involved in cutting a car than just opening the coupler and pulling away. You have to set handbrakes on the cars being cut, you have to shut off the HEP, you have to disconnect the HEP cables and the air hoses, separate the train, close the HEP loops, do an air test, etc. All that is on top of the normal station work (i.e. letting passengers off and on the train).

Thanks for stating the obvious - I'm well aware of that.

Some aren't.

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

 

[RPE]

I think Amtrak is going to announce that they are converting to an inter-city bus service (dba Amroad) as of October 1.

No, because "Amroad" was already used in the movie "Silver Streak", and they got tired of throwing the same passenger (Gene Wilder) off the train over and over!

And don't forget the arrival in Chicago!

They got tired of having to rebuild the station after every arrival!

Someone actually insisted to me that the ending scene of Silver Streak was real: that they intentionally ran a train into the station, then repaired the station after the scene was shot. They were serious. I nodded my head in mock agreement. There is no arguing with logic like that.

The station in the end scene was Toronto's Union Station. (And No - They did not have to repair it. :giggle:

 

[Michael061282]

Someone actually insisted to me that the ending scene of Silver Streak was real: that they intentionally ran a train into the station, then repaired the station after the scene was shot. They were serious. I nodded my head in mock agreement. There is no arguing with logic like that.

You mean it wasn't real? My whole childhood has just been ruined! :giggle: The shattering of illusions is always painful ::sigh:: :help:

 

[abcnews]

I still don't see why they can't just drop the Viewliner in Pittsburgh, and just keep it real simple. Just one Viewliner on the rear of the Cap. And yes - the transdorm would have to be the last car on the Superliner consist. And the baggage could be one or two Superliner Coach/baggage combine cars. So no need for a Heritage baggage, if you have the Viewliner on the rear. Just use a "Baggage/Coach" combine somewhere in the consist.

 

[jdcnosse]

It's amazing the amount of comments this has gotten on here and on Facebook. 401 likes and 142 comments at the time of writing this. Makes you wonder if Amtrak's marketing team finally figured out a way to get the general public excited about trains. lol

 

[cpamtfan]

When I rode 29 in July, they had to run the consist backwards except for the baggage car due to having 5 private varnishes on the rear, so I don't see it as being a huge issue.

 

[afigg]

I still don't see why they can't just drop the Viewliner in Pittsburgh, and just keep it real simple. Just one Viewliner on the rear of the Cap. And yes - the transdorm would have to be the last car on the Superliner consist. And the baggage could be one or two Superliner Coach/baggage combine cars. So no need for a Heritage baggage, if you have the Viewliner on the rear. Just use a "Baggage/Coach" combine somewhere in the consist.

Amtrak posting a teaser about a "September surprise" on their Facebook page has certainly resulted in an interesting thread with all sorts of ideas for what will likely turn out to be a yawner of a "surprise".

If you read the Capitol Limited report, the plan is not just to attach one Viewliner, but also 2 Amfleet II coach cars and an Amfleet food service car. If they are going to go to the trouble of connecting to the CL, they have to include coach cars for the revenue and capacity. To start the new service, Amtrak will need 2 additional Amfleet II coach cars, 3 Viewliner sleepers, and a food service car. From the track diagram in the report, NS will have to restore a connecting track and add a 480v ground power supply. I think it is pretty clear from the information posted here about the status of the track work and the needs for 3 Viewliner sleepers, that this won't be the "surprise" this September.

If Amtrak prioritizes it's LD upgrades, going to daily service on the Cardinal is more important - and achievable in the short term. The Cardinal had a poor cost recovery of 27% in FY08 which puts it at risk if the House Republicans insist that only LD trains with cost recoveries of at least 50% or those close enough to get there in the near term will be allowed to continue. Going daily improves the projected CR to 35% and an annual ridership increase of 134,900. The Cardinal would still be short on CR, but the arrival of the Viewliner II baggage-dorms, option to add a 2nd sleeper for peak travel periods should boost revenue further. Keeping the Cardinal running maintains service to Cincinnati and leaves the option of a future Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati corridor service in better circumstances than if Cincinnati had no Amtrak service at all.

But we shall see what the "surprise" is sometime this month. My bet is on an underwhelming surprise.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I suspect increased service on the corridors from cars freed up by the discontinuatiOn ofD trains

 

[fairviewroad]

Either that or a free Amtrak softball cap for the first person to successfully complete the CZ route from Emoryville to Chicago.

Nice! And it would truly be a surprise if this happened in the month of September, unfortunately.

It's amazing the amount of comments this has gotten on here and on Facebook. 401 likes and 142 comments at the time of writing this. Makes you wonder if Amtrak's marketing team finally figured out a way to get the general public excited about trains. lol

Yes, but this can cut both ways. If you build up expectations like this, you'd better follow it with something worthwhile. Anything less than amazing/interesting/unique at this point will be met with a round of jeers.

 

[Donctor]

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

And couldn't putting the Viewliner on the Capitol simply entail a P42 taking the car off the end of 43 and putting it on the tail of 29? (I'm assuming that the sleepers and dorm would be placed on the rear of 29/30.)

 

[had8ley]

I was going to say "AE stopping in KIN", but I don't want that! It would end AE running thru the station (tracks) at 150 MPH!

Like the old goat says in the Geico commercials Dave....Naaaahhh, Naaaahh, Naaaahh :lol: It's probably something simple like the 50% bonus for fall trips.

 

[jis]

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

And couldn't putting the Viewliner on the Capitol simply entail a P42 taking the car off the end of 43 and putting it on the tail of 29? (I'm assuming that the sleepers and dorm would be placed on the rear of 29/30.)

One of the constraints for the proposal to be cost effective is that all car moves be done by the road locomotives using road crews. So no second locomotive sitting around with separate crew to do the shunting. If the cost incurred in adding the cars is not fully covered by incremental revenues and then some, then this is not going to happen, and they appeared to be quite serious about that one. Remember that the reason for this is not to keep us on the forum here amused. It is to increase CR for the train.

 

[Donctor]

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

And couldn't putting the Viewliner on the Capitol simply entail a P42 taking the car off the end of 43 and putting it on the tail of 29? (I'm assuming that the sleepers and dorm would be placed on the rear of 29/30.)

One of the constraints for the proposal to be cost effective is that all car moves be done by the road locomotives using road crews. So no second locomotive sitting around with separate crew to do the shunting. If the cost incurred in adding the cars is not fully covered by incremental revenues and then some, then this is not going to happen, and they appeared to be quite serious about that one. Remember that the reason for this is not to keep us on the forum here amused. It is to increase CR for the train.

Yup. I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere that there was a way to do this without requiring much. Exactly how it's possible, I cannot quite recall. (Given the lack of anything concrete in my memory of this, it certainly seems possible that I am misremembering entirely.)

 

[Anderson]

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

And couldn't putting the Viewliner on the Capitol simply entail a P42 taking the car off the end of 43 and putting it on the tail of 29? (I'm assuming that the sleepers and dorm would be placed on the rear of 29/30.)

One of the constraints for the proposal to be cost effective is that all car moves be done by the road locomotives using road crews. So no second locomotive sitting around with separate crew to do the shunting. If the cost incurred in adding the cars is not fully covered by incremental revenues and then some, then this is not going to happen, and they appeared to be quite serious about that one. Remember that the reason for this is not to keep us on the forum here amused. It is to increase CR for the train.

Yup. I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere that there was a way to do this without requiring much. Exactly how it's possible, I cannot quite recall. (Given the lack of anything concrete in my memory of this, it certainly seems possible that I am misremembering entirely.)

My understanding is that they were willing to consider this if the marginal revenue wasn't quite at 100% if the CR numbers tightened enough as a result (i.e. the deficit went up by $500,000 but the CR went up by 4%). Honestly, I think that Viewliner will be sold out on a regular basis because of PHL/HAR...and EB, this makes sense. WB, however, you have to depart far earlier from NYP to make it.

If it were just a matter of a decently-timed single-seat service from PHL-CHI, I'd suggest sticking the Viewliner on the last NE Regional that could leave NYP and make WAS with an appropriate buffer (125 is an option here WB, and EB you could pretty much just stick it on the next Regional out of town if you're late) and just revive the old Capitol Limited service (i.e. what B&O inaugurated back in the 20s), but I suspect there's enough incremental improvement from the intermediate stops PHL-PGH to make the Pennsylvanian option make sense. The biggest problem with the Pennsylvanian option is that the PGH layover is a dog.

 

[MikeM]

Personally, I think it's going to be a new Amtrak Bingo game. Guess the car number of the car next to be sidelined in a derailment on the CZ and you win a complementary flat iron steak.

 

[Lazy Z]

I have it on good word that Amtrak and the US Post Office will be announcing a partnership to fill up their baggage cars with bulk rate mail.

Please tell me that is a joke!!

 

[Lazy Z]

Does anyone recognize the landscape??

 

[Anderson]

It looks to be somewhere out west...but I think it might also be a stylized drawing instead of a picture.

 

[Lazy Z]

Yes, it does, but it seems like the middle of Arizona with an ocean in the background Maybe like you day, it is a drawing..maybe representative of the whole southwest.......

It looks to be somewhere out west...but I think it might also be a stylized drawing instead of a picture.

 

[MattW]

What about the Coast Daylight? It certainly looks like a Southern California scene at least to me and I don't remember reading anything about stuff happening to the Coast Starlight.

 

[jis]

How long does it take to disconnect a car off the rear of the train? The Capital Limited could actually pull away - without any delay at all, simply by dropping the Viewliner in the station - as long as that track is blocked and protected. And then, once the Capital Limited is well out of sight, the empty Pennsylvanian would pull into the station (or back into the station) and hook up to the Viewliner. It's only one car - thats all. No other switching is required.

And couldn't putting the Viewliner on the Capitol simply entail a P42 taking the car off the end of 43 and putting it on the tail of 29? (I'm assuming that the sleepers and dorm would be placed on the rear of 29/30.)

One of the constraints for the proposal to be cost effective is that all car moves be done by the road locomotives using road crews. So no second locomotive sitting around with separate crew to do the shunting. If the cost incurred in adding the cars is not fully covered by incremental revenues and then some, then this is not going to happen, and they appeared to be quite serious about that one. Remember that the reason for this is not to keep us on the forum here amused. It is to increase CR for the train.

Yup. I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere that there was a way to do this without requiring much. Exactly how it's possible, I cannot quite recall. (Given the lack of anything concrete in my memory of this, it certainly seems possible that I am misremembering entirely.)

Well, there have been many unworkable proposals from many who have nothing to do with actually being responsible for operating anything. The folks responsible for this who carried out the study and planning came to the conclusion that they need to put in a crossover to a siding at the west end of PGH station, a crossover that was removed within the last half dozen or so years, unfortunately.

 

[Anderson]

I'm running it up the flagpole and seeing who salutes. I've got to wonder...what would the Coast Daylight's timetable look like? The Coast Starlight runs LAX-EMY 10 AM-10 PM NB and 8 AM-9 PM SB...and honestly, though you definitely want daylight on that section of track, I can't see 12-hour LAX-Bay Area service quite meriting two not-very-spaced-out trains per day unless the Coast Daylight will include some kind of fancy "Coach Plus" accommodations...the train. I'm also wondering if "split the train in San Jose" might not make more sense, too.

(For what it's worth, I could see an 8 AM departure and an 11 AM departure making sense, even if the 11 AM is going to be a bit of a dog in terms of its San Francisco arrival time...and I do believe that 2-3 daily frequencies on a line are necessary.)

 

[John Bredin]

Remember that Amtrak said regarding the wrong guesses that "some of the guesses are on the horizon". I think that's an intentional choice of words; that is, it's meant to be a clue.

My guesses, upon the presumptions that (a) "horizon" is a clue and (b) the surprise is actually something worthy of a fanfared and hyped announcement to the riding and general public:

1) An order for new equipment to replace the Horizon cars on the Midwestern and California corridors. While money was recently allotted for new bilevel equipment for this purpose, and while a standard design for bilevel corridor cars has been issued, no cars have yet been ordered from any manufacturer AFAIK.

2) Daily Sunset Limited (going to where the sun sets on the horizon <_< ) on the previously-discussed basis of CHI-SAS-LAX with SAS-NOL stub train.

3) As others have commented here, a Coast Daylight (again, operating where the sun sets on the horizon).

Note that I said a surprise to the riding and general public. The first two guesses would not be a surprise to those on this board, or passenger railfans and advocates elsewhere. But certainly not everyone that is an actual or potential Amtrak passenger is so obsessive well-informed. :giggle: