Coming in from New Jersey, either on NJT or PATH, I don't care to schlep into the 8th Avenue subway concourse with all its characters to get to Moynihan just to to gauk at its skylit ceilings only to schelp back to the West End concourse to bypass the Gate Dragons. Legacy Penn is fine, though the mens room is disgusting, and can access tracks 1 thru 17. There's also the Exit Concourse.
Serious Amtrak mishandling of passengers
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From what I've read, in the old days and at least on the PRR, at major terminals there was a system of lights and buttons used to co-ordinate between the conductor, the tower, and the porter at the platform entrance. When I commuted on Metra from CUS, the system was still partially operated. Part of it was the conductor letting the tower know they're almost ready to go and the tower responding by lighting a yellow light on the platform light that said "you're lined up, depart when ready." The final step, not used by Metra, was the porter pushing his button that would light a green light saying all passengers have made it to the train. The train didn't depart until it had the green light from the porter (these lights were indicator lights along the platform, not signals). I guess Amtrak has no system at Washington that lets station personnel tell the train crew that all passengers have made it (or if they do, it was misused - whoever said all passengers were aboard without checking).
Being retired airline, there is a major difference between how plane and train departures are handled. Airline station customer service is who closes the airplane door and until the door is closed, the captain has no authority to move the plane (for safety reasons, the transfer of control from station to captain is a very detailed process to insure the plane is not moved until all is clear to do so). A plane departing without all passengers boarded just can't happen.
Being retired airline, there is a major difference between how plane and train departures are handled. Airline station customer service is who closes the airplane door and until the door is closed, the captain has no authority to move the plane (for safety reasons, the transfer of control from station to captain is a very detailed process to insure the plane is not moved until all is clear to do so). A plane departing without all passengers boarded just can't happen.
That can certainly happen. But typically if you head there as soon as the track is known it’s pretty quick.Yeah, but sometimes there's a line for the elevator.
It varies crew by crew.
As a Chief Petty Officer I had a Commanding Officer who would not listen to or accept my solution to a problem with the equipment, and put out a call for a tech-rep, who was flown from Norfolk, Virginia to Key West, Florida, and brought out in a helicopter, was lowered down to the deck. He was taken to the bridge to see the Captain, then came down to where I was, heard what I suggested, and went back up to tell the Captain just how much money he wasted by not listening to his Chief.
blueman271
OBS Chief
Cards on the table, as a young Second Class Petty Officer standing watch on my first submarine I reached a level of frustration with a specific officer and proceeded to maliciously comply with the orders he gave. After a full six hour watch of me waking him up every hour on the hour he relented and rescinded his previous order.
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Via Rail Canada.
In PRR parlance, the employees you refer to are “Usher’s”, not “Porter’s”. I believe this practice continues, at least in NYP…
Steve's Wanderlust
Train Attendant
Such was so this morning at PHL. Though the young lady ushering our train 110 was overheard saying she'd not yet worked the line for "this train" (her words).
There's a lot at play, people-wise that can hold up a process these days. Our line at track 2 was allowed to queue between the ticket counter and baggage area!
Same thing happens in LA, just with a bit bigger platforms. Isn’t it *technically* required to have a ticket to ride the LIRR and NJT? Also people wouldn’t just be going about randomly
checking tickets, in practice it would probably only come up when/if there’s someone who is clearly homeless or something else.
Oh okay. I still there is probably a rule one could come up with where light enforcement could keep the platforms clear of people who shouldn’t be there
So what you'd do in that situation is plan on two interactions. For the first, you ask the person what train they're planning to board/where they're going. If they say Amtrak, obviously they need a ticket; if it's one of the other two, then presuming they're on the right platform for it (which might or might not be the case), I'd make a note to follow up if they miss the next train.
[If they're not planning to travel, then they could be moved along easily enough.]
There is no staff for any of the 3 railroads wandering around the platforms asking such questions. The Gate Dragons work for Amtrak and are at the top of the Moynihan stairs, no place else. When 1,000 people are getting on LIRR or NJT in 5 minutes, such a person would be run over in any case, especially by LIRR commuters. I know what they are like - I used to be one of them. During rush hours, there are 18 NJT trains per hour. On the LIRR about 24.
https://jasongibbs.com/pennstation/
NYPS is a lot more complicated than LA or DC.
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The cynic in me imagines that the train crew was aware that the passengers were not boarded, but took advantage of the situation (someone else to blame) and had a good laugh at their “good fortune”, of working an empty train….
Nah, no one could be that callous, could they?
Must have changed since I worked there from 1989-1994…back then Amtrak ushers loaded all Amtrak AND New Jersey Transit trains…
blueman271
OBS Chief
Yes it has changed. NJT and LIRR customers have unfettered access to the platforms and tracks. The track assignment is posted, the passengers head to the appropriate platform, the train loads and departs. Just like everywhere else on earth. Only Amtrak treats their passengers like children and then it’s only those that don’t know any better.
Amtrak thinks they are an airline. In Chicago, they slam the gate shut 5 minutes before departure like they are a Swiss watch operation (hah).
LIRR thinks they are a subway. Rush hour trains have fixed track assignment every day because they have an operating plan and a Joint Operating Agreement with Amtrak, which dates from Pennsy days.
NJT is on the continuum between the two.
LIRR thinks they are a subway. Rush hour trains have fixed track assignment every day because they have an operating plan and a Joint Operating Agreement with Amtrak, which dates from Pennsy days.
NJT is on the continuum between the two.
New York Penn has always restricted passenger access to the platforms of the intercity trains, at least since I started riding there in 1969 or so. This makes sense because the platforms are so narrow that there's no room for the people getting off and the people boarding to be on the platform at the same time. Back in the PRR/PC/early Amtrak days there were proportionately more NEC trains originating in New York than there are now, but people would crowd the gates until they announced the track and let people down. Of course, people in the know would just go downstairs to the Long Island RR level and board without the crowds.
Philadelphia 30th St. would let you go down on the platform as soon as they knew the track for the train. In any event, even if you came down as part of the cattle line, they would announce the train a good 20-30 minutes before arrival, so no need to be first on the platform. As a kid, I don't remember long lines at the gates.
At Baltimore, it's supposedly "ticketed passengers only," but no one checks you. They announce the trains 10-15 minutes before arrival, and there's never any real lines to get to the platforms and plenty of time to position yourself at your desired spot on the platform. By the way, I used to sometimes board without a ticket if I was running late, and then fire up the app and buy it while on the train before the conductor passed by. You gotta be quick, though, you lose cell service/wifi when the train goes into the tunnels at ach end of the station.
The 1980s renovation of Washington actually had airport-style departure lounges at each gate (which nobody uses for that anymore,) but they usually let people riding the Northeast Direct trains (during the 1990s) wander out to the train without lining up. This all started changing in the early 2000s when they eliminated the unreserved Northeast Regional trains and then had, for a brief time, the gate dragons checking tickets.
It does seem that back in the olden days of circa 1970 - 2000, the trains would consistently be at the platform ready for boarding at the terminals (i.e, WAS, BOS, etc.) a lot earlier than they are now, although when I've used a red cap, I've sometimes been surprised at how early the train is really ready for passengers, as opposed to when they announce the track to let the cattle in.
Not for me it wasn't, never had a 2nd thought about it.
Several times in the 1970's, the newly Amfleeted Bankers would come in from Springfield, MA at 10:20am, and depart for Philly at 11am.
No platform access issues from the Exit Concourse, no what-are-you-doing-here, and no closing of the snack bar. The train was mostly empty for the duration. I went on board, bought a scrumptious roast turkey on wheat sandwich labeled Springfield Commissary along with a Coke, headed to the half of the cafe car with coach seats, pulled down the drop tray, chowed down, and got off well before general boarding.
No yelling, no loaded questions, no need to shut the cafe down for incessant bookeeping and counting money. That was when Amtrak was run by adults for adults, not authoritarian headmasters against children.
Several times in the 1970's, the newly Amfleeted Bankers would come in from Springfield, MA at 10:20am, and depart for Philly at 11am.
No platform access issues from the Exit Concourse, no what-are-you-doing-here, and no closing of the snack bar. The train was mostly empty for the duration. I went on board, bought a scrumptious roast turkey on wheat sandwich labeled Springfield Commissary along with a Coke, headed to the half of the cafe car with coach seats, pulled down the drop tray, chowed down, and got off well before general boarding.
No yelling, no loaded questions, no need to shut the cafe down for incessant bookeeping and counting money. That was when Amtrak was run by adults for adults, not authoritarian headmasters against children.
Can you answer a question as a Conductor? When there is a crew change, as at NYP, is my observation correct that one crew leaves and another takes over without any kind of hand-off? So if the train has a layover, due to padding in the schedule or other reason, the train with passengers on board sits there with no train crew in charge? Is there any Amtrak operating rule for that?
"Conductor" is an AU term for some members. I'm not a RR conductor.
UserNameRequired
Lead Service Attendant
Or, if there is a line, go down to west end concourse level and press the up and down buttons at the same time, it may be empty on the way up so you can get on to ride back down to platform level.
Should be a hand off, especially on the NEC.
Not aware of any no crew at all on-board situation that occurs regularly. Could it happen, by accident yes.
Chicago has in the past recover sleeping passengers from the yard and take them back to the station. This type of situation is not common or planned, and happens by accident.
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The new crew should be waiting for the train to arrive, even if it’s early. The schedule should prevent it from coming in unreasonably early. When it arrives there is the handoff, which is usually quick.
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