Seven Subway Line

[jis]

1, So? What does that have to do with the inability to get people to the train at Penn Station 8th Ave subway stop. BTW the 8th Ave subway stop will be over a street block and and an avenue block away from Penn Station South. People will at least improve their health and can drop their health club membership and save some money I suppose. Actually the E and the F stations will be about equidistant from PSNY South.

2. I see that you are into belaboring the obvious. That is the plan, so what's new that you have added to the discussion? AFAAICT nothing and hence there is nothing to say about it. If both were funded at proper levels on the same date, the 7 to Secaucus could be built much faster because it is a simpler project involving very little construction in areas where service has to be maintained during construction.

 

[afigg]

Because being confident does not cost any money What they are saying is that they would like to start construction in 2017, but that does not mean it will happen. by a long shot. Remember they first have to get money to do the EIS, for which they have exactly $0 at present.

Of course if they can get funding for it, the Portal North segment of Gateway can begin construction as soon as they get any funding for it. But the tunnel segment and the Portal to Bergen segment is is a different matter

The Senate still has to pass it, but it appears that we have a 2 year budget deal for federal spending. Still an austerity level budget, but one that should allow some breathing room on funding transportation programs. The DOD appropriations are set, the allocations of appropriations for rest of the other discretionary spending has to be agreed to. If Amtrak were to remain stuck at $15 million a year for Gateway engineering in the direct allocations for the next 2 fiscal years plus whatever support and funding it can get from NJ, is that enough to advance the project through the next environmental review and preliminary engineering stages?
Is there a publicly stated ballpark estimate on what it will cost to advance the Gateway project to a Tier II FEIS and 30% design?

As for the north Portal bridge replacement, don't know what the prospects are for getting funding for it in the next 2 fiscal years if the federal budget is going to remain at tight levels. OTOH, I could see Senator Schuumer and other NE Senators inserting a line into the appropriations bill providing some funds for the bridge replacement.

 

[jerichowhiskey]

I think the main issue is if NJ commuters want a 7 extension, then they should pay all or most of it. Not that there aren't any benefits for NJ commuters.

 

[jis]

I think the main issue is if NJ commuters want a 7 extension, then they should pay all or most of it. Not that there aren't any benefits for NJ commuters.

I do agree with both you and afigg, so don;t get me wrong, but....

Since at least as far as I can tell there are very few that disagree with that principle, I am not sure why it is an issue either

As a matter of fact at present the bigger issue is whether New York will make any significant contribution to Gateway at all, except through PANYNJ. Admittedly there is a similar worry about NJ too, and the reason for that is the sorry state of the state budgets in both states. And PANYNJ is of course completely focused on raising the Bayonne Bridge - literally!

I think it may be quite safe to say that NJ will just pay lip service to everything involving rail until this Governor is gone. OTOH if it is a road project he will find the money from somewhere pronto.

New York at least has a Governor who is more sympathetic to rail at present. But still he has not been able to staff his rail department adequately to actually take any leadership role in running the Empire Corridor, and instead is basically drifting along with the flow while minimizing the amount of money doled out to Amtrak, which his staff did an admirable job of, all three of them in the rail department of DOT handling Amtrak. So don;pt expect to see food service anytime soon on the NYP - ALB scoots, until something changes in Empire Plaza in Albany. Meanwhile they are yet to get a Final Draft of the NY State HSR EIS approved by the FRA for completely unknown reasons.

 

[tp49]

Many LIRR commuters who want to get onto E do the transfer to E at Jamaica. So that part of the analysis is somewhat flawed.

Just curious as to whether there is data to make this claim? Reason I ask is that when I was working in Manhattan (54th and 3d Ave) and commuting from Long Island on the LIRR the large majority of people I saw getting of at Jamaica were crossing over to the train to FBA not heading for the subway station. However, I did notice a good number of commuters getting off the train at Penn and taking the E from their to stops north of 42d Street. I also couldn't imagine getting off the LIRR and switching to the subway to Manhattan when doing so would extend the trip by at least fifteen to twenty minutes. Mind you my sample size isn't very large but I just don't see daily commuters who are very set in their ways doing the switch at Jamaica. However, I definitely see this changing once ESA opens up with access to GCT as the commute time to the East Side should be nicely reduced.

 

[jis]

I am trying to get the actual numbers from NYMTC, who ought to know. I have also sent an email to someone I know at Parsons. Since they are involved in ESA, Gateway and 7 to Secaucus, they probably have the core relative numbers and flows and projections handy.

It is possible that I might have spoken hastily regarding the transfers to E and will be proved incorrect. I can indeed believe that those bound for the vicinity of GCT would change at Penn Station rather than in Jamaica. And with the advent of ESA they will change at Jamaica to ESA thus relieving the E train a bit. But the E train access situation in the 8th Ave 34th St station remains quite critical and won;t improve by much given the narrow platform that cannot be made wider and the access points that are apparently not improvable too much. Though i can see how at least a few more turnstiles can be added. Bit providing access from those turnstiles to the E platforms is another matter I am told.

 

[Andrew]

1. But if the Seven Subway gets extended to Secaucus, than even way more crowding will occur at the 42nd street and 5th Avenue Station, which has a very narrow platform!

2. If Gateway gets chosen, then there is some talk of potentially extending the tunnels eastwards towards Queens. But wouldn't these tunnels be too shallow for TBM's within Manhattan?

 

[AlanB]

But the E train access situation in the 8th Ave 34th St station remains quite critical and won;t improve by much given the narrow platform that cannot be made wider and the access points that are apparently not improvable too much. Though i can see how at least a few more turnstiles can be added. Bit providing access from those turnstiles to the E platforms is another matter I am told.

Actually, one might see some small improvement for this situation if the City/MTA would restore & reopen the Gimbles' passageway. That would open up access to the 6th Avenue line without requiring a walk outside in the elements.

 

[PRR 60]

Gimbels.

PATH does a nice business from Newark to Lower Manhattan from both NJT and Amtrak. There is no reason to believe that a 7 Train extension to Secaucus would not be similarly patronized by passengers heading for the GCT and Upper East Side areas.

 

[Andrew]

Why are Schumer and Menendez leaning more towards Gateway than Seven Secaucus Extension?

 

[Fan Railer]

Why are Schumer and Menendez leaning more towards Gateway than Seven Secaucus Extension?

Why are you asking so many common sense questions?

...

You know as well as the rest of us that expanding capacity into Penn Station is going to be more beneficial in the long run than squeezing growth capacity onto a single subway line, where you would be asking commuters to cram into trains consisting of eleven 51' by 9'9" cars.

 

[jis]

Why are Schumer and Menendez leaning more towards Gateway than Seven Secaucus Extension?

Instead of yelling at you or giving you a non-answer, let me try to give you the big picture....

First of all, it is not clear that what railner claims is correct regarding what "the rest of us know". In order to disprove his point, I need to find just one person who does not think that Gateway is the best idea, and I actually know dozens such. As a matter of fact in NJ the support level is somewhere between 60/40 and 40/60 depending on what impression people have of who is going to pay how much for it. But leaving such petty and pointless bickering aside.....

At present clearly Gateway has the momentum since it has a clear owner and they are competent people at Amtrak, way more so than many other parts of Amtrak would seem to be, that own this project on the NEC. So the pragmatic thing to do irrespective of what problem it solves or does not solve is to support it and get others to support it so that at least it gets built if not anything else. This position is a rational one without passing any specific judgement on which of the half a dozen or so ideas floating around for Hudson crossing are better than which else. As long as a proposal does not have any show stopping flaws (like the final version of ARC did IMHO, and even on that there is much disagreement, usually from many who have rather sparse understanding of what ARC was or was not) it is the rational thing to do to support it.

Now specifically as it comes to Schumer and Menendez the issues are somewhat different.

First Menendez. He is a Lautenberg protege. Gateway is Lautenberg's crowning achievement as a concept after the failure of ARC which also was a Lutenberg backed project. So it is quite natural for Menendez to support Gateway, and it is a good thing too, since we have no idea where Booker is, though I expect him to support Gateway when the time comes.

Next Schumer. Schumer's support is tied closely to the HSR to Stewart from Penn Station scheme, so as to make Stewart Airport become a viable 4th airport for the tri-state area. This involves building the so called Loop-de-loop connection from the old Erie lines at Secaucus Jct. to connect to the new tunnel approach lines. Lautenberg has gone so far as to hint that he'd work on getting NY State to pitch in for the Loop-de-loop addition cost since it benefits NY state in many ways. More power to him on that. Loop-de-loop is not part of the Gateway plan as far as Amtrak is concerned since it has nothing to do with Amtrak service.

Hope that gives a reasonable picture of how things stand relative to th question asked.

 

[Andrew]

Any updates on that email you sent to Parsons?

 

[jis]

No. With every passing day now fewer and fewer people are still at work. So I don't expect to hear anything until January. And then of course I will be away starting next week till the middle of January, enjoying some train rides of a very different kind in India.

 

[Andrew]

1. Have fun in India!

2. I read somewhere that the Gateway Tunnel Alignment is pretty much understand--but that it just needs an EIS. But what about engineering--to understand the depths, etc--and how long would the EIS take?

3. What do you make of Christie's recent "Bridgegate" Scandal?

 

[jis]

1. Thanks

2. EISs of this size usually take about 3 years, give or take, provided the work is adequately funded. Otherwise it can take much longer.

3. That would be inappropriate to discuss here since it has nothing to do with Amtrak or even Rail

 

[Andrew]

Someone stated that there is usually a "3 year limit" regarding environmental permits. Does this mean that once funding gets secured, that there is a 3 year window BEFORE EIS work can begin, or does it mean something else?

 

[Fan Railer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6RiLzW7ng

 

[CHamilton]

For a Mayor on His Way Out, a Subway Station on Its Way In

For years, Michael R. Bloomberg has been a subway rider of singular distinction: a mayor who often took the train to work, as common New Yorkers do, albeit after a chauffeured drive from his townhouse to an express stop a mile away.
So with less than two weeks left in his term, perhaps it was appropriate that a final, exclusive ride was waiting.

As Mr. Bloomberg’s valedictory tour turned to the rails on Friday, the mayor completed a maiden trip to a new No. 7 train station at 34th Street and 11th Avenue — the first subway extension paid for by the city in more than 60 years.

 

[Andrew]

I wonder how many more years it will be until a NYC Mayor rides the Seven Subway to Secaucus?

 

[AlanB]

I wonder how many more years it will be until a NYC Mayor rides the Seven Subway to Secaucus?

Hopefully it will never happen. It's not the job of the mayor of NYC to provide services to New Jersey.

 

[PRR 60]

I wonder how many more years it will be until a NYC Mayor rides the Seven Subway to Secaucus?

Hopefully it will never happen. It's not the job of the mayor of NYC to provide services to New Jersey.

But what if New Jersey pays for the entire Seven Train project, and makes sure that when it's done, we clean all the construction dirt off the Manhattan streets and pick up all out trash (and, of course, dump it in New Jersey)? Would it at least be OK for the mayor to take a ride over to Secaucus just for fun, or would New Jersey have to pay his fare as well?

By the way, I hope New York enjoys all that Super Bowl revenue! generated by a game being played in New Jersey

 

[Andrew]

I wonder how many more years it will be until a NYC Mayor rides the Seven Subway to Secaucus?

Hopefully it will never happen. It's not the job of the mayor of NYC to provide services to New Jersey.

But what if New Jersey pays for the entire Seven Train project, and makes sure that when it's done, we clean all the construction dirt off the Manhattan streets and pick up all out trash (and, of course, dump it in New Jersey)? Would it at least be OK for the mayor to take a ride over to Secaucus just for fun, or would New Jersey have to pay his fare as well?

By the way, I hope New York enjoys all that Super Bowl revenue! generated by a game being played in New Jersey

In a Stadium owned by the NEW YORK Jets and NEW YORK Giants!!

 

[Bob Dylan]

I wonder how many more years it will be until a NYC Mayor rides the Seven Subway to Secaucus?

Hopefully it will never happen. It's not the job of the mayor of NYC to provide services to New Jersey.

But what if New Jersey pays for the entire Seven Train project, and makes sure that when it's done, we clean all the construction dirt off the Manhattan streets and pick up all out trash (and, of course, dump it in New Jersey)? Would it at least be OK for the mayor to take a ride over to Secaucus just for fun, or would New Jersey have to pay his fare as well?

By the way, I hope New York enjoys all that Super Bowl revenue! generated by a game being played in New Jersey

In a Stadium owned by the NEW YORK Jets and NEW YORK Giants!!

They should be called the Jersey Giants and Jets! They Haven't Played in the Apple in Decades! YA Tittle is turning over in his Grave! Jersey gets all the Tax Money Generated and Should, they Paid for the Stadium! Wonder what the Dog Sleds and NY Cabbies will Charge to get to the Stadium if its an Icy/Cold Day in the NE??? :lol:

 

[Andrew]

Has Mayor de Blasio said anything about new trans-hudson infrastructure?