Short Consists of Long Distance Trains

[joelkfla]

Links? I did some quick Google searches and didn't find anything. I'd like to see what they're operating

http://www.norta.com/Getting-Around/Our-Streetcars

The original line dates back to 1835. Each green and crimson "Perley Thomas" streetcars, first appearing on the line in 1923, is a National Historic Landmark. In so many ways, a ride on the St. Charles streetcar is a ride through history.​

​

And then ...

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The Canal Street line was reopened it in 2004 after having been replaced by a bus route in 1964. Its bright red cars are modeled on the historic Perley Thomas streetcars, but the newer vehicles feature modern amenities such as air conditioning and wheelchair access. ​

 

[Cal]

http://www.norta.com/Getting-Around/Our-Streetcars

The original line dates back to 1835. Each green and crimson "Perley Thomas" streetcars, first appearing on the line in 1923, is a National Historic Landmark. In so many ways, a ride on the St. Charles streetcar is a ride through history.​

​

And then ...

​

The Canal Street line was reopened it in 2004 after having been replaced by a bus route in 1964. Its bright red cars are modeled on the historic Perley Thomas streetcars, but the newer vehicles feature modern amenities such as air conditioning and wheelchair access. ​

Thanks! I like it, instead of having a modern-looking streetcar.

 

[nti1094]

Not to mention the fact that his gambit was for entities other than Amtrak to make with the funding for the SWC route.

Since that occured, the world will never know if was serious about the bus thing or it was a clever ploy that worked.

The thing is a lot of the money, including a TIGER grant covering the trackage across Kansas and into Colorado, was already in place. Even BNSF signed off on and committed a share of the funding for that. What Anderson was doing was rejecting that money and trying to kill that part of the route. I don’t get the impression at all that he was trying to squeeze more money from other parties.

 

[BlackDiamond]

http://www.norta.com/Getting-Around/Our-Streetcars

The original line dates back to 1835. Each green and crimson "Perley Thomas" streetcars, first appearing on the line in 1923, is a National Historic Landmark. In so many ways, a ride on the St. Charles streetcar is a ride through history.​

​

And then ...

​

The Canal Street line was reopened it in 2004 after having been replaced by a bus route in 1964. Its bright red cars are modeled on the historic Perley Thomas streetcars, but the newer vehicles feature modern amenities such as air conditioning and wheelchair access. ​

I remember the first time I rode the St. Charles line in 1971, the fare was still 5 cents and they still had conductors on the cars (although they were in the process of phasing them out for one person operation). Talk about "a ride through history"!

 

[Willbridge]

The thing is a lot of the money, including a TIGER grant covering the trackage across Kansas and into Colorado, was already in place. Even BNSF signed off on and committed a share of the funding for that. What Anderson was doing was rejecting that money and trying to kill that part of the route. I don’t get the impression at all that he was trying to squeeze more money from other parties.

Correct. And they sent their withdrawal letter to only one of the coalition members (and didn't indicate that they needed to circulate it) so that reaction to the news was delayed.

They also had not really worked out their alternative. The transfer times at each end of the bus link and the running times on segments of two-lane highway with minimal shoulders would have meant losing connections in Chicago and/or Los Angeles.

The transfer at Dodge City on occasions would have looked like this October 1997 scene at Garden City.



US350 from Google Maps at Model, Colorado. A 55 mph highway vs. 90 mph railway. (Yes, I know that pick-ups will drive faster than 55, but that's one of the hazards at road junctions as on the right.) It appeared to us in Colorado that the Gardner Plan hadn't been researched.

 

[neroden]

The SW Chief "bus bridge" was such a ludicrously incompetent, stupid, and unresearched proposal that people were saying it had to be a phony, an over-the-top attempt to get more funding -- but it appears that the people who proposed it were actually that stupid and actually believed it was a serious proposal. Which... well, I don't know exactly who proposed it, but as far as I am concerned that disqualifies them from *all* management jobs in anything related to transportation.

 

[zephyr17]

Well, Gardner was a prominent member of that management team and "fell" upwards to become Amtrak's COO. Obviously, being an oblivious moron is no impediment to gaining the C-Suite at Amtrak.

 

[user 14106]

I don’t get the impression at all that he was trying to squeeze more money from other parties.

I'm sure they probably had it at the back of their minds - they'll either let us do what we're saying here and go with buses or they'll throw money at us for the Chief route and we won't have to pull it from somewhere else. They did the latter. I'm sure if you asked Anderson or Gardner they'd tell you now it paid off and got them federal funding to deal with it. I didn't like it, but it did result in extra funding.

 

[zephyr17]

I'm sure they probably had it at the back of their minds - they'll either let us do what we're saying here and go with buses or they'll throw money at us for the Chief route and we won't have to pull it from somewhere else. They did the latter. I'm sure if you asked Anderson or Gardner they'd tell you now it paid off and got them federal funding to deal with it. I didn't like it, but the move did pay off in that regard.

Yep, hostage taking is always a smart move by executives.

 

[zephyr17]

I'm sure they probably had it at the back of their minds - they'll either let us do what we're saying here and go with buses or they'll throw money at us for the Chief route and we won't have to pull it from somewhere else. They did the latter. I'm sure if you asked Anderson or Gardner they'd tell you now it paid off and got them federal funding to deal with it. I didn't like it, but it did result in extra funding.

They why did they try to refuse the grant that they had already received? By your reasoning, they added another level of extortion to hostage-taking.

 

[user 14106]

Not defending it on its merits and its not ethical - but they did get more money out of it.

 

[zephyr17]

Not defending it on its merits and its not ethical - but they did get more money out of it.

I don't actually credit them with being evil geniuses. I think Anderson just had a knee jerk reaction to the lack of PTC on the line, despite the fact it was not required due to light traffic. That and an obvious disregard for long distance services in general.

Anderson didn't understand the business he joined and didn't appear to care. I just think he was an over confident know-it-all and it was a blunder, a blunder compounded by his arrogant and dismissive attitude towards Congress.

I do not ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by stupidity.

 

[user 14106]

In my observing them at Congressional meetings and other venues neither struck me as particularly stupid. I certainly have some disagreements with their points of view on various Amtrak issues but they did not strike me as idiots. But that's just my take - others are certainly free to feel otherwise.

 

[zephyr17]

In my observing them at Congressional meetings and other venues neither struck me as particularly stupid. I certainly have some disagreements with their points of view on various Amtrak issues but they did not strike me as idiots. But that's just my take - others are certainly free to feel otherwise.

Being an over confident know-it-all is a less obvious and more subtle form of stupidity, but remains stupidity nevertheless.

I have seen many well spoken executives whose knowledge was severely lacking and whose confidence in their unfounded ideas was boundless. They did not appear overtly stupid but to quote an overused but applicable Forrest Gump truism: "Stupid is as stupid does."

 

[jis]

In my observing them at Congressional meetings and other venues neither struck me as particularly stupid. I certainly have some disagreements with their points of view on various Amtrak issues but they did not strike me as idiots. But that's just my take - others are certainly free to feel otherwise.

I think one can be ignorant in a particular context thus proving to be ineffectual and counter productive without being generically stupid though. I think both Moorman And Anderson suffered from this malady in spades, Anderson with arrogance added on for good measure. In that sense they were more foolish in a situation rather than stupid overall.

 

[zephyr17]

I think one can be ignorant in a particular context thus proving to be ineffectual and counter productive without being generically stupid though. I think both Moorman And Anderson suffered from this malady in spades, Anderson with arrogance added on for good measure. In that sense they were more foolish in a situation rather than stupid overall.

Well said. "Foolish" works for me. Manipulative, Machiavellian genius, not so much.

 

[jis]

I’m confused, so Boardman didn’t want to downgrade dining on any trains?

He pretty much said that if his hands were not forced he would have preferred to not downgrade. But some early downgrades did happen in his time though nothing remotely like what happened after he left. He also criticized those later downgrades and the attempts to decimate the LD network. Who knows whether he meant it or not and we have no way of asking him any more.

 

[west point]

What anyone from middle to upper management needs are certain skills. Those persons have to be able to know if what they are being told is the whole story or even the truth. But even more important is to find out what they are not being told that can affect their decisions. From what has been posted by many more knowledgeable people here is that is especially important in managing a RR of any kind.

 

[user 14106]

Anderson was definitely arrogant there’s no doubt about that.

 

[Willbridge]

What anyone from middle to upper management needs are certain skills. Those persons have to be able to know if what they are being told is the whole story or even the truth. But even more important is to find out what they are not being told that can affect their decisions. From what has been posted by many more knowledgeable people here is that is especially important in managing a RR of any kind.

In the early years of Amtrak it was said that a couple of their presidents read Rail Travel News to find out what was really going on.

I do know that Western P.R. director Art Lloyd showed Graham Claytor a set of 5x7's of the City and County of Denver's proposed sites for an Amshack replacement for Union Station. According to Art, Claytor "used Navy words" when he saw them and put a stop to consideration by Operations of relocating. That was totally outside the chain of command but Art recognized the effects on ridership the relocation would have and the end of a potential he foresaw for commuter rail use of DUS. Claytor knew that he could get the straight **** from Art.

 

[west point]

Is Amtrak short personnel ? The answer is a definite yes. The present careers section has openings 283 listed. T hat includes 7 engineers in the NE . Cannot remember number of OS but had several openings for Chefs as well as other OBS.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm sure if you asked Anderson or Gardner they'd tell you now it paid off and got them federal funding to deal with it. I didn't like it, but it did result in extra funding.

When Anderson was asked about the Southwest Chief he repeatedly stated that he wanted to turn it into a bus bridge. So far as I am aware his position and reasoning never wavered despite being challenged by grassroots activism and undermined by additional maintenance funding.

In my observing them at Congressional meetings and other venues neither struck me as particularly stupid. I certainly have some disagreements with their points of view on various Amtrak issues but they did not strike me as idiots. But that's just my take - others are certainly free to feel otherwise.

Regardless of intelligence Anderson never came across as especially clever, which seems to be a core requirement of the reverse psychology theory.

 

[user 14106]

I think that’s exactly what he wanted and i wasn’t arguing that he didn’t - I just wouldn’t be surprised if they figured the worst thing that could happen is congress says no and they get money thrown at them and then they don’t have to pull it out of the operating margin - either way they win. Maybe I’m wrong and they aren’t that smart and didn’t think of that. But I kind of thought that’s exactly what was going to happen at the time and I’m not going to call myself any sort of genius. Just my take - I could easily be wrong.

 

[nti1094]

Correct. And they sent their withdrawal letter to only one of the coalition members (and didn't indicate that they needed to circulate it) so that reaction to the news was delayed.

They also had not really worked out their alternative. The transfer times at each end of the bus link and the running times on segments of two-lane highway with minimal shoulders would have meant losing connections in Chicago and/or Los Angeles.

The transfer at Dodge City on occasions would have looked like this October 1997 scene at Garden City.

View attachment 25161

US350 from Google Maps at Model, Colorado. A 55 mph highway vs. 90 mph railway. (Yes, I know that pick-ups will drive faster than 55, but that's one of the hazards at road junctions as on the right.) It appeared to us in Colorado that the Gardner Plan hadn't been researched.

View attachment 25162

Oh I think it was researched completely, and that is exactly why it was proposed. It’s like the spirit of the Southern Pacific liven on in Amtrak to this day.
It’s sacrilege that they would pull a very SP move on the sacred ground of the Chief.

 

[Palmland]

I saw 98, the northbound Silver Meteor, in Deland Fl. I was pleased to see it was back to its full consist: 4 coaches, cafe, diner, VII, VI, VII sleepers, baggage. Big crowd getting on.