Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[sportbiker]

First is this 9 page February 20, 2015 presentation from Nippon-Sharyo and Sumitomo to the Next Generation Equipment Committee. Turns out that the project is encountering schedule slippage with the Feb 2015 schedule calling for the completion of testing of 3 pilot cars by December 2016 (from end of May 2016) and the 130th car to be completed by October, 2018. The Feb 2015 status bullets:

Excellent find! For me, this is the money shot in that presentation: the "Lessons Learned":

• Standardization and Innovation can be in conflict at times.
  
• Overly-detailed specification may limit equipment choices in a
  
  constantly changing supply market.
  
• It is challenging to accurately allocate weight and physical space for a technologically evolving car design.
  
• Resolving ambiguities or contradictions in the specification required much time and effort to resolve.
  
• [SIZE=24pt]Areas for discretion of the carbuilder could be further evaluated... [/SIZE]
  

N-S do not sound like happy campers.

 

[neroden]

PS. The MI DOT RFI states this about the CHI-STL corridor which currently is constrained by the IL DOT agreement with UP to be allowed to run only 3 of the 4 daily Lincoln service trains at 110 mph: "In addition, the state, Amtrak and the UPRR have been negotiating to run the fourth train pair at 110 mph (where safe track conditions allow), which is expected to begin by the end of 2015."

Well, finally. I mean, this was a ridiculous restriction; if the track speed allows 110 mph, it should allow it for all trains which have suitable 110 mph equipment.

 

[neroden]

There are no option cars being added to the order – it was thought there might be, but it did not happen.

It was thought there might be because the bid amount was below the appropriated money! The "extra" money was going to be used to buy option cars...
So if there aren't any option cars being bought with the federal money, there's *free ARRA money available* which can be reallocated to *other projects*. I hope the states with over-budget ARRA railroad projects are paying attention and have asked for the money....

 

[keelhauled]

Unless the bilevels have run over budget too...

 

[neroden]

Unless the bilevels have run over budget too...

Can't really, can they? Fixed-price bid. That would require change orders.

 

[keelhauled]

Well the "Resolving ambiguities or contradictions in the specification required much time and effort to resolve" sounds to me like a euphemism for N-S and the states/Amtrak changing the specs to make a workable design. Who swallows that cost, I don't know.

 

[keelhauled]

Nippon Sharyo is laying off 100 workers in Illinois as a "result of complications during the testing phase of one of its prototype cars, which requires the company to undergo a design review by its engineers," which seems to jive with the report of a failed compression test. Perhaps more ominously, they say that "we do not know how long this reduction of work will be."

http://www.rrstar.com/article/20150903/NEWS/150909775

Edit: a somewhat more in depth article from Trains Magazine (http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/09/04-nippon-story for those that are subscribers) confirms that the compression test did fail and N-S does not know why.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

This is why we test things.

 

[jis]

Unless the bilevels have run over budget too...

Can't really, can they? Fixed-price bid. That would require change orders.

Of course they can run over budget. As to who will eat the overage is a different matter.

 

[George K]

Edit: I didn't see the post above.

Excuse: Only about 2 sips into my AM coffee.

 

[Andrew]

Speaking of coaches, though, I wonder if Metro North will end up ordering double-decker coaches to eventually replace their M8 cars, and if the local trains will end up being double-decker EMU's, and the express trains to and from New Haven double decker trains with electric locomotives.

I also wonder if the Auto Train will get a new order of bi-level coaches in the near future...

How come Nippon-Sharyo got the bi-level coach order, instead of Bombardier or even Kawasaki?

 

[west point]

Double deck passenger cars for MNRR or LIRR ? There are severe clearance issues for MNRR GCT and LIRR GCT as well. East side access tunnel below east river was designed before bi-levels were considered viable. NYC access to GCT as well.

Unfortunately NYP east river tunnels 5 & 6 although would allow bi-levels the 5 & 6 would only be able to the new Penn south which will be just for Amtrak and maybe NJT.

 

[jis]

Penn South upper level which is what will be built initially will be entirely NJT. No access to Sunnyside and difficult, almost nonexistent access to Moynihan Station which will be Amtrak's primary concourse. So Amtrak is unlikely to use those six or eight tracks except in extremely unusual circumstances.

As for tunnels 5 and 6 under the east river, currently there are no concrete plans for them. Allowance has been made for providing access to such if and when they are built. My guess is it will be well after 2030 when they get built.

 

[Andrew]

Penn South upper level which is what will be built initially will be entirely NJT. No access to Sunnyside and difficult, almost nonexistent access to Moynihan Station which will be Amtrak's primary concourse. So Amtrak is unlikely to use those six or eight tracks except in extremely unusual circumstances.

As for tunnels 5 and 6 under the east river, currently there are no concrete plans for them. Allowance has been made for providing access to such if and when they are built. My guess is it will be well after 2030 when they get built.

Does "After 2030" refer to tunnels 5 and 6 or the Gateway Tunnels?

Double decker coaches can be designed to go into GCT through the Metro North tunnels.

 

[jis]

What is that paragraph about which mentions 2030?

The Metro North tunnels into Grand Central have the same loading gauge as the Penn Station tunnels. Actually the two outer tunnels are a little worse. It maybe the case that neither the C3 nor the MLVs fit through them without some modifications.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Speaking of coaches, though, I wonder if Metro North will end up ordering double-decker coaches to eventually replace their M8 cars, and if the local trains will end up being double-decker EMU's, and the express trains to and from New Haven double decker trains with electric locomotives.

I also wonder if the Auto Train will get a new order of bi-level coaches in the near future...

How come Nippon-Sharyo got the bi-level coach order, instead of Bombardier or even Kawasaki?

N-S submitted the lowest and best bid. I don't know who else bid on the project.

 

[iggy]

I see the Nippon Sharyo layoffs mentioned. But didn't see anything with a quick glance - detailing the labor issues that have been ongoing in news for at least 6 months. Seems in my area these issues haven't seen local news reports. Also haven't seen rail advocates reporting these problems.

Would redesign do to Federal Railroad Administration regulations compared to rest of world - have led to the test failure?

Or do we think this is a Firestone situation - labor sabotage?

Either way horrible news for Amtrak Chicago St Louis riders. New rolling stock would go a long way in helping to resolve some customer service issues on that route.

More ammo for Illinois Governor Rauner to hate Amtrak?

 

[neroden]

Nippon Sharyo is laying off 100 workers in Illinois as a "result of complications during the testing phase of one of its prototype cars, which requires the company to undergo a design review by its engineers," which seems to jive with the report of a failed compression test. Perhaps more ominously, they say that "we do not know how long this reduction of work will be."

http://www.rrstar.com/article/20150903/NEWS/150909775

Edit: a somewhat more in depth article from Trains Magazine (http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/09/04-nippon-story for those that are subscribers) confirms that the compression test did fail and N-S does not know why.

Ouch. The N-S engineers will be embarassed... you're supposed to catch that sort of stuff before building prototypes...

This means a significant delay to delivery. They still have that 2017 deadline for most of the cars, so they'll have to staff up massively once they fix whatever the engineering mistake was.

 

[Palmetto]

Apparently, their engineers relied on a computer model showing the crash test would pass. And as we all know, it didn't.

 

[dlagrua]

This press release seemed to have gotten missed. and it's pretty big one, as it contains a nice render of the cars. From Nippon-Sharyo:

Nippon Sharyo and Sumitomo Corporation receive the Contract Award for 130 Bi-Level Passenger Cars from Caltrans and IDOT

November 6, 2012

On November 6th, 2012, The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) awarded the contract for 130 High-Speed Bi-Level Passenger Railcars to be built by Nippon Sharyo and the prime contractor Sumitomo Corporation of America (SCOA). The contract includes a base order of 130 railcars for $352 million along with an option to purchase an additional 300 railcars for $898 million, bringing the contract total to $1.25 billion.

peter

Are these cars supposed to fit through the NY and Baltimore tunnels? They look to be as high as the Superliners.

 

[PerRock]

No, they should be pretty close to the same height as the Superliners.

peter

 

[A Voice]

This press release seemed to have gotten missed. and it's pretty big one, as it contains a nice render of the cars. From Nippon-Sharyo:

Nippon Sharyo and Sumitomo Corporation receive the Contract Award for 130 Bi-Level Passenger Cars from Caltrans and IDOT

November 6, 2012

On November 6th, 2012, The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) awarded the contract for 130 High-Speed Bi-Level Passenger Railcars to be built by Nippon Sharyo and the prime contractor Sumitomo Corporation of America (SCOA). The contract includes a base order of 130 railcars for $352 million along with an option to purchase an additional 300 railcars for $898 million, bringing the contract total to $1.25 billion.

peter

Are these cars supposed to fit through the NY and Baltimore tunnels? They look to be as high as the Superliners.

No, these cars are intended for service in California and the midwest. They cannot be run in the Northeast due to clearance restrictions; They will fit neither the Hudson nor B & P tunnels.

 

[trainman74]

Any talk in this thread of bi-level cars for Metro-North or other Northeast commuter systems is not related to the cars pictured above, except in the mind of a certain poster who will take any opportunity to mention New York-area rail tunnels (existing or proposed).

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Any talk in this thread of bi-level cars for Metro-North or other Northeast commuter systems is not related to the cars pictured above, except in the mind of a certain poster who will take any opportunity to mention New York-area rail tunnels (existing or proposed).

:giggle:

 

[frequentflyer]

This press release seemed to have gotten missed. and it's pretty big one, as it contains a nice render of the cars. From Nippon-Sharyo:

Nippon Sharyo and Sumitomo Corporation receive the Contract Award for 130 Bi-Level Passenger Cars from Caltrans and IDOT

November 6, 2012

On November 6th, 2012, The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) awarded the contract for 130 High-Speed Bi-Level Passenger Railcars to be built by Nippon Sharyo and the prime contractor Sumitomo Corporation of America (SCOA). The contract includes a base order of 130 railcars for $352 million along with an option to purchase an additional 300 railcars for $898 million, bringing the contract total to $1.25 billion.

peter

Are these cars supposed to fit through the NY and Baltimore tunnels? They look to be as high as the Superliners.

No, these cars are intended for service in California and the midwest. They cannot be run in the Northeast due to clearance restrictions; They will fit neither the Hudson nor B & P tunnels.

You would think they would find a better cab car design, more like Rotems design in SoCal.