Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[MisterUptempo]

In other comments....I have been very impressed with the way Illinois has taken the lead in Transportation. Their ability to source new locomotives and passenger cars seem to put Amtrak to shame.

You mean they are able to shake the federal dollar tree better than anyone else when their guy is in the White House? They'd have to be truly incompetent if they were unable to do that, no? Call me cynical, but I don't see what is there to be impressed about. If it had not happened that would be a reason to be depressed about.

Let's also remember that Illinois had the foresight to have completed plans at the ready, so they'd be in the front of the line when the Feds were giving out money to "shovel-ready" projects. They are using the same playbook with the Tier II CHI-JOL, Springfield 10th Street Corridor and Flyover, and the Granite City to St. Louis EIS's.

If Wisconsin, Ohio, and Iowa didn't have governments that were openly hostile to passenger rail, we'd also be talking about the new Milwaukee-Madison route,the Ohio 3C route, and the extension of the Quad Cities route to Iowa City and beyond, instead of just the improvements on Illinois and Michigan routes.

 

[afigg]

If the 34 additional cars will (in part) replace the 6-car Amfleet/Horizon trainsets that the Hiawatha uses, that would suggest two 5-car sets for that service.

Separately, I had never really given any thought to the idea that BC seating may increase from 14 seats on Amfleet/Horizon cars to around 74 seats on the bilevel cars. It will be interesting to see how that (potential) substantial increase in available BC seats affects BC fares, revenues, and demand. In my experience, on the Lincoln and Wolverine services BC has been completely or nearly full every trip I've sat there.

If WI does not want BC-cafe cars for the Hiawatha, the consist could be 4 coach cars (90 seats each) and a cab-baggage car with 78 seats replacing the NCPU. Which would provide an increase in seating capacity to 438 with a shorter consist of 5 cars total compared to 6 + the NCPU. In general, the Midwest trains should see better acceleration with the shorter consists.
As for the expansion in BC capacity, that could get more actual business travelers to take the trains. New modern shiny equipment, dedicated BC cars, more reliable service could make taking the train routine for business trips to Chicago or from Chicago. The success of the Acela for business travel on the NEC has shown that new equipment with BC seating can pay off handsomely.

 

[rickycourtney]

Sorry. Y'all lost me.

Where did we hear that the Hiawatha is getting the extra bi levels?

Did Wisconsin exercise some of the options on the multi-state order? Or are we just playing hypotheticals?

If we're playing hypotheticals, another state I'd love to see jump on this order is Oklahoma.

They already use Superliners on the Heartland Flyer (2 coaches, a snack coach and an NPCU.)

The service could really be upgraded if they bought into this order. I'm thinking a coach/cafe, 2 coaches and a cab/coach/baggage would do the trick. The higher density layout could mean a lot more seats (more ticket revenue) the cafe with its real lounge seats would allow for better service (which hopefully translates into higher sales) and trainlined automatic doors should make for shorter dwell times.

It would be expensive, but this is the best time for states to buy new equipment. Thanks to this multi-state order the cars are about as cheap as they will ever be.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I think the Hiawathas are still hypothetical, based on a statement in a press release, which could have been a mistake or oversight. Of course, it could mean only be one set of Hiawathas will get the bilevels, since they are a joint Illinois-Wisconsin service. I suppose we won't know until the cars are actually rolled out and put in service. Don't count on Oklahoma getting any since they have never been part of the Midwest pact.

 

[afigg]

Sorry. Y'all lost me.

Where did we hear that the Hiawatha is getting the extra bi levels?

Did Wisconsin exercise some of the options on the multi-state order? Or are we just playing hypotheticals?

If we're playing hypotheticals, another state I'd love to see jump on this order is Oklahoma.

.....

If you read back in this thread to July 31, I posted a link to a press release from IL Gov. Quinn about a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a Shop 3 at the Nippon-Sharyo plant at Rochelle. Perhaps it is an error, but the press release listed Milwaukee as one of the cities to be served by the additional order of bi-level cars. If they are ordering 34 additional cars for the Midwest, the numbers make sense if they are also planning to provide new cars to the Hiawatha service.

Because the bid price from Nippon-Sharyo came in well under the funds allocated for the 130 car bi-level order, I expect that the leftover funds are being used by the FRA to pay for the 34 extra cars for the Midwest and 11 extra cars for CA. By replacing the Horizons on the Hiawatha service, the corridor bi-levels will replace all of the Horizons and Amfleet Is, so the Chicago hub will have a uniform new fleet for the corridor services which should reduce maintenance costs and, provided Nippon-Sahryo delivers a good product, improve reliability for winter operations. The Hoosier State will either switch to equipment provided by a private vendor or be terminated this fall when the 1 year state support contract deal runs out and a new deal can't be put together.

As for the Heartland Flyer, I don't know if OK and TX have ever been part of the corridor bi-level specification and bid process in any way. The contract with Nippon-Sharyo has options for 300 additional cars, so OK and TX can buy new bi-levels if they can line up the funds.

 

[StanJazz]

What would be funny if instead of Wisconsin paying Amtrak for the use of the Horizons it ends up paying Illinois for the use of the bi-levels owned by Illinois.

Stan

 

[neroden]

What would be funny if instead of Wisconsin paying Amtrak for the use of the Horizons it ends up paying Illinois for the use of the bi-levels owned by Illinois.

I'm sure Illinois government officials would enjoy that. And it's fairly likely. Illinois does pay for part of the Hiawatha subsidy; I forget whether it was 1/4 or 1/3. As a result, Illinois can probably say "We want to use the new equipment" and Wisconsin will probably go along.

 

[iggy]

Depending on time of day and year = more capacity for Business Class on Lincoln Service is long overdue. I've written about this many times over the years. There are of course times when BC is empty leaving St Louis or heading to that city. The complete opposite can occur = where BC is jammed packed leaving that city. High customer demand in Springfield and Normal. I've seen several trips were those who wanted to book BC had to book coach instead do to limited availability.

Earlier this year I provided video of Joseph Shacter director of public and intermodal transportation for IDOT at Midwest High Speed Rail Association 2014 Spring Meeting discussing Nippon-Sharyo Rochelle IL manufacturing plant, new rolling stock and track upgrades.

 

[rrdude]

Oh well informed AU members; Is the carbody of these new Midwest bilevels Stainless?

 

[afigg]

Oh well informed AU members; Is the carbody of these new Midwest bilevels Stainless?

Yes. The PRIIA specification for the corridor bi-level cars requires that the carshell and other primary structural components be made of stainless steel.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

FRA head Joe Szabo also noted that with

the additional cars ordered, Nippon Sharyo

will be producing thru 2018. That's good.

I know the option keeps a fixed price for

another six years worth of production (wow!)

but I don't like any interruptions on the

assembly line.

I want the same crew working day after

day, year after year. Don't want people

layed off and then some replaced by

newbies when production ramps up

again. Get better quality that way.

 

[NE933]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

 

[Eric S]

What would be funny if instead of Wisconsin paying Amtrak for the use of the Horizons it ends up paying Illinois for the use of the bi-levels owned by Illinois.

I'm sure Illinois government officials would enjoy that. And it's fairly likely. Illinois does pay for part of the Hiawatha subsidy; I forget whether it was 1/4 or 1/3. As a result, Illinois can probably say "We want to use the new equipment" and Wisconsin will probably go along.

Pretty sure the IL/WI split is 25/75.

 

[MikefromCrete]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

They're in a good position to bid for any such projects. They have been producing Highliners on a steady basis for Metra, certainly doing a a better job that CAF is doing with the Vieweliner II's.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

If Congress in its wisdom can find a way to fund multiyear

equipment purchases, to get the savings from a big order,

then the field will be wide open.

If Congress in its customary way makes it impossible to buy

equipment cheaply by the hundreds, to replace all the Amfleets

and Superliners, then Amtrak will be forced to buy in small

batches, say, up to 130 new cars at a time.

In that case, I'd expect Nippon-Sharyo with an open assembly

line making bi-level cars would have an edge to make a batch

of Superliner replacements. And CAF could have a similar

advantage to build 130 or so Viewliner coaches.

 

[Ryan]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

They're in a good position to bid for any such projects. They have been producing Highliners on a steady basis for Metra, certainly doing a a better job that CAF is doing with the Vieweliner II's.

That statement seems a little premature.

 

[rickycourtney]

What would be funny if instead of Wisconsin paying Amtrak for the use of the Horizons it ends up paying Illinois for the use of the bi-levels owned by Illinois.

I'm sure Illinois government officials would enjoy that. And it's fairly likely. Illinois does pay for part of the Hiawatha subsidy; I forget whether it was 1/4 or 1/3. As a result, Illinois can probably say "We want to use the new equipment" and Wisconsin will probably go along.

No clue how much Amtrak is charging these days to "rent" 2 Horizon trainsets... but if Illinois allows the Hiawatha to use their bi-level equipment to be used on this route for free... that could go a long way to covering their portion of the subsidy.

 

[rickycourtney]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

If Congress in its wisdom can find a way to fund multiyearequipment purchases, to get the savings from a big order,

then the field will be wide open.

If Congress in its customary way makes it impossible to buy

equipment cheaply by the hundreds, to replace all the Amfleets

and Superliners, then Amtrak will be forced to buy in small

batches, say, up to 130 new cars at a time.

In that case, I'd expect Nippon-Sharyo with an open assembly

line making bi-level cars would have an edge to make a batch

of Superliner replacements. And CAF could have a similar

advantage to build 130 or so Viewliner coaches.

I agree. If it's a small order it might be able to be "tacked on" as an option to this order.

But even if Amtrak put the Superliner III out to bid Nippon-Sharyo would have a big advantage. Remember the Superliner was used as the design baseline for these cars... so it shouldn't require much retooling to convert the factory from a intercity car assembly line to a Superliner III assembly line.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

So the next big question: is Nippon_Sharyo the likely builder for the Superliner IIIs? Or/and the Amfleet replacements for the NEC?

If Congress in its wisdom can find a way to fund multiyearequipment purchases, to get the savings from a big order,

then the field will be wide open.

If Congress in its customary way makes it impossible to buy

equipment cheaply by the hundreds, to replace all the Amfleets

and Superliners, then Amtrak will be forced to buy in small

batches, say, up to 130 new cars at a time.

In that case, I'd expect Nippon-Sharyo with an open assembly

line making bi-level cars would have an edge to make a batch

of Superliner replacements. And CAF could have a similar

advantage to build 130 or so Viewliner coaches.

I agree. If it's a small order it might be able to be "tacked on" as an option to this order.

But even if Amtrak put the Superliner III out to bid Nippon-Sharyo would have a big advantage. Remember the Superliner was used as the design baseline for these cars... so it shouldn't require much retooling to convert the factory from a intercity car assembly line to a Superliner III assembly line.

I think that either an order for hundreds of coaches or

an order for a batch of 130 would probably have to be

put out to bids. Lots of rules and regs regarding public

contracts. To me both Nippon-Sharyo and CAF have

a head start, respectively, due to their current work.

But there's other potential bidders, and one could be

hungry enough to bid low enough to grab this work.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak doesn't need to follow those rules because they are technically a private corporation.

Beyond that, you can tailor a bid to favor a particular product. For years, for instance, my town specified that vehicles submitted for consideration in police bids must have a 4.6 SOHC V8, and a live rear axle located by a watts linkage. Anyone could bid, of course, but only Ford made such a product.

And further beyond that, if N-S were to have that contract RFPed fairly, since they were already building an extensively similar vehicle they could easily set forth a lower bid than other companies could profitably entertain.

 

[Paulus]

Amtrak doesn't need to follow those rules because they are technically a private corporation.

Beyond that, you can tailor a bid to favor a particular product. For years, for instance, my town specified that vehicles submitted for consideration in police bids must have a 4.6 SOHC V8, and a live rear axle located by a watts linkage. Anyone could bid, of course, but only Ford made such a product.

And further beyond that, if N-S were to have that contract RFPed fairly, since they were already building an extensively similar vehicle they could easily set forth a lower bid than other companies could profitably entertain.

Most states do make it illegal to structure a bid in such a manner.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That would be stupid, since for the most part intelligent municipalities would want to return to the product they were comfortable using and had infrastructure to handle.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Amtrak doesn't need to follow those rules because they are technically a private corporation.

. . .

Tell a Congresscritter that Amtrak is a private corporation

that doesn't have to put large orders out for bid. That would

not be a politically popular position for Amtrak to take or

for any Congresscritter to support.

I seem to recall that the 130-car order that ended up with CAF

may have seemed tailored to one or few bidders. But the electric

locomotives for the East Coast trains, the diesels for the Midwest

corridor trains, and the corridor bi-levels that Nippon-Saryo

is building, all were put to bid.

So, yeah, I'd expect the usual thing to be done again as it usually is.

Any orders for hundreds of coaches WILL be put out to bid.

As I said, I expect that both CAF and Nippon-Sharyo would

have a head start because of their current programs, but,

with other hungry bidders, you never know.

 

[jis]

Amtrak doesn't need to follow those rules because they are technically a private corporation.

Wait a minute! In the current appeal being handled by the SCOTUS I thought Amtrak was arguing that they are not a prvat corporation and therefore should be able to set the rules for performance and collect fines from other private corporations?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What I've seen over the years is Amtrak operates as whichever suits it's purpose at that moment.