Silliest OBS Made 'Rules'

[AlanB]

Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

No, we're not that dumb.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Yes, not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop. They start making very expensive demands that Amtrak fix their mistake, rather than owning up to their own foolishness and taking responsibility for their own actions. It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

Heck, while I was only a semi-experienced train traveler at the time, my boss & I nearly boarded the wrong train about 23 years ago in Trenton. We had been at a business lunch, which I do admit had seen a fair amount of alcohol being served to all of us, and were headed back to NY. I thought that I had the correct side of the station, my first visit to it, and I was wrong. Thankfully I asked a conductor before we boarded the train to Philly. Of course we missed our train to NY and had to wait an hour for the next one.

And I couldn't rely on my boss to help me with picking the correct side to find our train on. He was halfway through his meal before he realized that he was eating what the client had ordered and that the client had his meal. :lol: Neither noticed when the waiter put the plates down. So I certainly wasn't going to ask him which track we needed!

So you are saying Amtrak needs to put everyone through the kindergarten walk because two drunk passengers could not figure out the right train?

NO, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was simply pointing out that even I have made a mistake. I however accepted the blame for my mistake! And my penalty was to wait another hour for the next train. I didn't run to the ticket office and demand that they find me a train sooner or hail & pay for a cab, etc.

But because there are some American's who will do just that, Yes, we get subjected to the kindergarten walk. And trust me, I'm not happy with that idea at all. In fact, I almost never subject myself to the line in NYP and the ticket check at the top of the escalator. In all my travels, and I've been averaging over 10,000 miles a year on Amtrak for the last 10 years at least, I think that the only stations where I've ever done the walk are New Orleans & Seattle. And I've only done it there because there is no way around it. At all other stations, be it via Lounges, redcaps, or simply knowing the tricks, I've avoided the line.

Again, like I said before, the cheap and effective solutions exist in more evolved passenger rail networks halfway across the world from Amtrak, like in India (yes, sorry I have been dragging Indian Railways a lot into the picture, but come on, there is a lot Amtrak can learn from a passenger rail system that is well oiled and functional)- put up destination boards on the train's exterior and voila! problem solved! Like this-

Throw in a line in Espanol too and you are good to go! See it has visual clues too for folks who might on a later date sue Amtrak claiming they did not know how to read English or Spanish!

A sign like you've pictured would be useless in NY. Except for the Lake Shore, all other trains rarely depart from the same track. And even the LSL occasionally is forced to a different track. So even assuming that they could hang such a sign, they'd have to keep moving it every day. Maybe even twice in one day!

 

[MattW]

What about the commuters? Don't the LIRR, MNRR, NJT, Metra, Metrolink, SEPTA etc. passengers usually make it to their trains just fine without the kindergarten walk? And aren't the trains usually on different tracks each day too?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Alan, have you heard of liquid crystal displays?

 

[cirdan]

So you are saying Amtrak needs to put everyone through the kindergarten walk because two drunk passengers could not figure out the right train?

Again, like I said before, the cheap and effective solutions exist in more evolved passenger rail networks halfway across the world from Amtrak, like in India (yes, sorry I have been dragging Indian Railways a lot into the picture, but come on, there is a lot Amtrak can learn from a passenger rail system that is well oiled and functional)- put up destination boards on the train's exterior and voila! problem solved! Like this-

Throw in a line in Espanol too and you are good to go! See it has visual clues too for folks who might on a later date sue Amtrak claiming they did not know how to read English or Spanish!

Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.

Railroad passenger information should be simple, it should use a clearly recognisable and uniform font, a reduced color set and conform to minimum quality standards in terms of graphic design.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.

Railroad passenger information should be simple, it should use a clearly recognisable and uniform font, a reduced color set and conform to minimum quality standards in terms of graphic design.

Umm sorry, I should have made that more clear- the signboard whose photo I posted is on the outside of the train, not the station. I had posted that in reply to Alan's narration of the incident in which he did not know if he was boarding the correct train. If the train had a board on its exterior announcing it is headed to WASHINGTON DC and not NEW YORK CITY, he would have not been confused. I guess this photo should make it more clear-

In the station concourses, the existing Solari boards or LCD boards are good enough. In addition to that, once the passengers go down to their platforms, and if there are say two trains waiting on two sides of the platform, if each of the trains has a name board like the one shown above, I don't see how passengers would get confused.

And yes I agree, that name board I showed in the first photo is particularly gaudy and decorated, usually the name boards on trains in India have a plain single colored background with text in one color only, making it easy to spot.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop.

Regardless if you think Americans are stupid or not, I would hope we can all agree that catering to the needs of loudmouthed idiots and drunkards is a lousy way to improve your image. That's not to say image is everything, but when it comes to future funding battles Amtrak could use all the support they can get among the general population.

It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

Does Amtrak waste thousands of man-hours slowing everyone down in order to guide idiots across the tracks? If not then I don't see the connection.

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

How long has this been going on? Seems like it might be time to revisit this decision and streamline the process with better signage on the platforms and trains. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be better than the uniquely handicapped system we use today. I haven't seen anything this silly since the time I rode the Arlington Cemetery tour tram, and that's saying something!

 

[cirdan]

Umm sorry, I should have made that more clear- the signboard whose photo I posted is on the outside of the train, not the station. I had posted that in reply to Alan's narration of the incident in which he did not know if he was boarding the correct train. If the train had a board on its exterior announcing it is headed to WASHINGTON DC and not NEW YORK CITY, he would have not been confused. I guess this photo should make it more clear-

In the station concourses, the existing Solari boards or LCD boards are good enough. In addition to that, once the passengers go down to their platforms, and if there are say two trains waiting on two sides of the platform, if each of the trains has a name board like the one shown above, I don't see how passengers would get confused.

And yes I agree, that name board I showed in the first photo is particularly gaudy and decorated, usually the name boards on trains in India have a plain single colored background with text in one color only, making it easy to spot.

Okay, sorry, I misunderstood you.

Of course I agree with what you say.

The train on your photo also appears to be displaying the train/service number and also the name of the train. Maybe this would also help at busy and complicated Amtrak stations. We don't have any trouble identifying buses by service numbers and it saves us reading through lots of text. Just stating the main stops may be of help to those of us who know our trains, but for those who are weak on geography it may not be reassuring if their stop is not listed. So in that respect a railroad is more complicated than a flight which will have one or just a small number of destinations. A train can serve several dozen stations and listing them all would require a huge board. A service number, or indeed the name of the train would help diambiguate in such a situation, as the name and number are elements that can easily be remembered and quickly recognized..

 

[AlanB]

Alan, have you heard of liquid crystal displays?

Yes, but that is NOT a picture of an LCD. I responded to what is pictured and being held up as an example of what to do; not what might be possible. Not to mention in NYP, Amtrak would not have room for an LCD that wide over each gate.

 

[Colonel Klink]

Might all the posts about pre-assigned seating do better in their own thread, perhaps stickied since this topic is of a perennial nature? I'm finding it quite interesting, and would contribute myself. However, I want to add to the main topic of "arbitrary/inconsistent/capricious employee-made rules".

When I was riding the Silver Star, I purchased about 10$ worth of drinks in the cafe car. I asked for a glass of water -- not a 2$ bottle of water, just tap water. The LSA refused to give that to me and would only give me a cup of ice. He wanted me to go back to the coaches to get water from one of the spigots that are located near the washrooms on the car ends. I went ahead and did this, only to find that the cups don't fit. In addition, the spigot did not work. Why should I have to leave the CAFE car to get tap water anyway?

The LSA was either being lazy or trying to get me to give more money. I find this absurd and insulting. He has the same equipment as the diner and sleeping cars -- nothing prevents him from using either the sink or the boiling water spigot. (The water sources are both potable.) I was especially incensed at him not giving me water since I'd paid 10$ for some overpriced crap in a cardboard box as it was.

Another incident on a different Silver Star: I'd come on for breakfast and went into the diner. Some woman working in the diner, I'm not sure if she was the LSA or just a waitress, told me to sit with the Amish family at table X, so I did. It had a young couple and their infant. They asked me if I might not want to take one of the booths that only had two people seated at it, since they had a car seat on the other side with the infant in it. The women who originally asked me to sit with the Amish couple overheard them and then verbally attacked them, saying that "that's not how things work". She told them that they "should have" sat across from each other with their child seated against the window. (Right, like an Amish couple is going to have a stranger sit next to them like that.) In other words, she insinuated that they have some nerve suggesting I sit elsewhere since they don't "know" how to properly sit in the dining car of a train. And they were first class sleeper passengers to boot!

The Amish couple was right -- it made more sense for me to sit across from two people instead of three, especially since there was plenty of room. The part that upset me the most, though, was the arrogance of that waitress/LSA and her insistence that that couple had no business questioning her infallible methods -- even though they didn't -- and that it was they who were in the wrong.

The man was visibly upset and made a very polite comment to me about his feelings. I, of course, told him that he should call and complain, as well as write a letter. For me, this showed two examples of unacceptable customer service on two different trains with two different crews.

Another example of unacceptable employee behaviour: at a smaller station, I was outside on the platform one day and saw a couple of people come up to one of the agents who was outside of the station. The people asked her the status of the train. She told them, rudely, that they should go inside and ask the agent at the window, since she was outside and "busy". (How dare they even assume she'd know the status of a train she'd be preparing to work! Employees certainly don't keep themselves apprised of facts that are of central importance to their job!) A passenger who overheard this exchange spoke up and said that the train was running late by such-and-such amount. How embarrassing for that rude woman, and how that must have shown how poorly she did her job – a passenger had to provide information that she'd paid to provide!

What she should have done was asked the people if they could excuse her for a moment while she went and checked on the train's status. Or, she could have explained or directed them to the window agent in a more polite and helpful, as opposed to indignant, manner.

 

[AlanB]

Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.

Railroad passenger information should be simple, it should use a clearly recognisable and uniform font, a reduced color set and conform to minimum quality standards in terms of graphic design.

Umm sorry, I should have made that more clear- the signboard whose photo I posted is on the outside of the train, not the station. I had posted that in reply to Alan's narration of the incident in which he did not know if he was boarding the correct train. If the train had a board on its exterior announcing it is headed to WASHINGTON DC and not NEW YORK CITY, he would have not been confused. I guess this photo should make it more clear-

I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.

In the station concourses, the existing Solari boards or LCD boards are good enough. In addition to that, once the passengers go down to their platforms, and if there are say two trains waiting on two sides of the platform, if each of the trains has a name board like the one shown above, I don't see how passengers would get confused.
And yes I agree, that name board I showed in the first photo is particularly gaudy and decorated, usually the name boards on trains in India have a plain single colored background with text in one color only, making it easy to spot.

Texan,

I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?

Because people don't pay any attention and/or it doesn't occur to them that more than one service serves that station. There are some who simply see a train pull up, a door opens, and they get on it. Clearly that is not a smart thing to be doing, I don't disagree. But that is what some will do. And yet, as I said before, as far as they're concerned it's Amtrak's fault that they got on the wrong train.

 

[AlanB]

Not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop.

Regardless if you think Americans are stupid or not, I would hope we can all agree that catering to the needs of loudmouthed idiots and drunkards is a lousy way to improve your image. That's not to say image is everything, but when it comes to future funding battles Amtrak could use all the support they can get among the general population.

Please don't put words in my mouth; thank you very much! I did NOT say "all Americans are stupid."

And Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested. They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place. There is also probably an element of security here too. And while I appreciate that you are sufficiently annoyed by having to stand in one of those lines, since one encounters similar practices at airports that is to say that one stands in line to board the plane (even if they call you row by row to minimize the length of the line), Amtrak probably figures that most Americans are used to the idea.

It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

Does Amtrak waste thousands of man-hours slowing everyone down in order to guide idiots across the tracks? If not then I don't see the connection.

Well then I can't help you. Sorry!

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

How long has this been going on? Seems like it might be time to revisit this decision and streamline the process with better signage on the platforms and trains. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be better than the uniquely handicapped system we use today. I haven't seen anything this silly since the time I rode the Arlington Cemetery tour tram, and that's saying something!

Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.

 

[Colonel Klink]

Sorry for the double post, but there were additional replies that came up whilst I was composing the previous post.

[...] but for those who are weak on geography it may not be reassuring if their stop is not listed. So in that respect a railroad is more complicated than a flight which will have one or just a small number of destinations. A train can serve several dozen stations and listing them all would require a huge board. A service number, or indeed the name of the train would help diambiguate in such a situation, as the name and number are elements that can easily be remembered and quickly recognized..

Really, if one can't figure out the correct train from the information given in appropriate signage that lists major stops, they shouldn't be allowed outside in public unsupervised. They don't list every stop on a subway, NJT, SEPTA, etc. train do they? That's where Local, Limited, Express, Limited Express, and line diagrams come in. Add to that the fact that your ticket shows your train number, and you're all set. If you're supposed to board train 178 to Newark at Philadelphia and you see a sign board on a train that says "Train 178: Washington-Philadelphia-New York / Car 22", what's there to figure out? Might someone with such a ticket be so incompetent as to board train 67 to Richmond?

Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid. It should cater to normal, well-adjusted human beings who are more than capable of figuring out how to ride trains if they're not led around by the hand and treated like children. Enabling idiots won't do them any good, and only perpetuates the problem. Rather, having gotten on the wrong train will certainly teach them how to be more careful next time -- assuming the appropriate signs, wayfinding devices, etc. that are used on trains everywhere else in the US and in the world are implemented.As the old saying goes: "teach a man to fish..."

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid.

Unfortunately in this litigation happy society, everyone has to cater to the stupid. Hence all the common-sense warnings on packaging, street signs, etc.

 

[JayPea]

I was once on the EB, bound for Seattle from Spokane, when a young man got aboard at Everett. When the train started moving and the conductor collected his ticket, it was discovered the man had a ticket for a Cascades train instead. There is juuuuuust a wee bit of difference between a Superliner set and a Cascades Talgo set. :lol: So it happens. And a couple of years ago, while riding the TE, on TWO occasions, the concept of opening the doors between cars was too much for some passengers. In both cases, they apparently didn't understand the concept of PUSH printed on the doors in 1 inch high letters. In one case, it was to be expected, as it was a woman who, among other things, rushed up to the train in Fort Worth at the last possible moment with her boyfriend, her two kids (one of whom was a baby, just a few months old), a Chihuahua, and seventy-eleven assorted bags, boxes and other stuff. The TE was actually held up for several minutes while waiting on her. She also yelled at her baby to shut up when it was crying and, at a smoke stop, waited until the stop was over, tried to go down the stairs while everyone else was trying to go back up, then bitched because she didn't get her precious cigarette. So it was not surprising she was unable to grasp the concept of pushing the plate on the door where it said PUSH. Another was an elderly couple, who had to be shown more than once how to open the doors. Afterward they were grumbling because they thought someone should have instructed them on the complicated procedure of opening doors So sometimes we Americans might not always be the sharpest tools in the shed. Somehow though I don't think we are the only country on earth with slow-witted people.

 

[TimePeace]

As for stupid people, that is not a problem here obviously.

But we are still a bunch of whiners. Maybe if everyone here wasn't of such notably superior intelligence, they'd be a little more tolerant of others.

Message taken: it's not easy to be a rocket scientist among morons.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested.

I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.

They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.

That may have been true when labor was cheap, but I'm somewhat doubtful that's still the case today. Better signage with more precise spotting and earlier notice could potentially reduce labor costs while improving the experience for regular customers.

There is also probably an element of security here too.

That's a new one on me. How exactly does the kindergarten line improve security if it can be avoided entirely with nothing more than a sleeper ticket?

Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.

Plane? Did you not have any example of a passenger railway that treats their customers like Amtrak does?

 

[Colonel Klink]

I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.

Indeed, I see this all the time. While LCD/LED signs would enable the entire train to be configured with the appropriate signage relatively easily, the ready crews can't be bothered to even change the electronic numbers on the Viewliners half the time.

However I disagree with your stance that ensuring correct signage on trains is "not something that Amtrak can do." No, it's that it is something that Amtrak is unwilling to do.

I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?

Because people don't pay any attention and/or it doesn't occur to them that more than one service serves that station. There are some who simply see a train pull up, a door opens, and they get on it. Clearly that is not a smart thing to be doing, I don't disagree. But that is what some will do. And yet, as I said before, as far as they're concerned it's Amtrak's fault that they got on the wrong train.

By entertaining hose kinds of delusional claims, Amtrak only ensures that such behaviour continues in perpetuity. They need to nip that it the bud and stop enabling these people.

On Deutsche Bahn or on the Berlin U-Bahn, if I got on a train without a ticket I'd be fined 400€. If I complained, they'd tell me to take it to court. The odd inspector might sympathise with me if he genuinely saw I was a helpless tourist with a poor grasp of the language, but not all would. In Japan, you'd simply be forced to pay the additional fare before exiting the fare paid zone via the turnstile. While I'm not saying Amtrak could or should penalise this behaviour, they're certainly in a place where they can refrain from encouraging it by falling over backwards to cater to imbeciles. If Amtrak is going to jump through hoops, why not do so in places that matter, such as customer service? How about maintaining and cleaning their cars? All the labour they waste could be used to prevent the very incidents described in this thread!

They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.

That may have been true when labor was cheap, but I'm somewhat doubtful that's still the case today. Better signage with more precise spotting and earlier notice could potentially reduce labor costs while improving the experience for regular customers.

Exactly. Perhaps a 'make work' scheme is one of the very reasons Amtrak doesn't do as you suggest? If that's the case -- which certainly is likely -- it's a sad state of affairs, as those people could have provided service on board long distance trains instead.

There is also probably an element of security here too.

That's a new one on me. How exactly does the kindergarten line improve security if it can be avoided entirely with nothing more than a sleeper ticket?

Indeed. There is no 'security' other than that of the 'theatre of the absurd' variety. Though I'm sure Amtrak is more than willing to call it such in order to justify a pointless, wasteful, wrong-headed exercise.

Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid.

Unfortunately in this litigation happy society, everyone has to cater to the stupid. Hence all the common-sense warnings on packaging, street signs, etc.

No one, even in the sue-happy US, is going to sue Amtrak because they got on the wrong train. The worst that could happen is Amtrak doesn't charge them a penalty or an extra fare for the additional trip. Again, how do SEPTA, CalTrains, NJT, etc. survive?

*EDIT*:

I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.

You hit the nail on the head. If only Amtrak management would understand this, they'd be on their way to completely revolutionising the company.

 

[PaulM]

Some comments about European type seat reservations:

1. They are voluntary, You pay a few bucks more for a reservation, but only if you want to.

2. You get to chose your seat when you reserve it. So presumably you won't have the Acela problem of passengers not wanting to sit in their reserved seat.

3. Even if you didn't like your reserved seat, you are free to move to any seat that isn't reserved for the spot where the train happens to be. If some one has reserved it down the line, then you have to move.

4. No attendant will meet you at the door when you board or tell you when it is time to get off. I'll let others argue about whether this is a cultural or IQ thing that is insurmountable. Another byproduct of this system is the reduced labor required. A long intercity train may have only 2 conductors and a restaurant car server. The two conductors generally sit in a small office in the baggage car, in the center of the train no less. They only come out at stops to signal the engineer when to depart or to help load bicycles. No such thing as coach attendants.

5. The biggest obstacle would be the need to retrofit seats with a sign board indicating when the seat was reserved. Originally, it was a thin piece of cardboard placed in a slot, presumably before departure. Now, I 'm sure they have electronic signs.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

The acela sets have a digital readout above the seats that are supposed to show your destination but I think the reason they don't work is they malfunctioned during testing and was not worth fixing.

 

[AlanB]

The acela sets have a digital readout above the seats that are supposed to show your destination but I think the reason they don't work is they malfunctioned during testing and was not worth fixing.

No, those digital readouts required the original quasi eTicketing program in order to work. The idea was that the conductor scanned the barcode on the ETicket with his scanner, typed in the seat number & car number, and that in turn updated the onboard computer, which put up the passenger's destination on that display. It read empty until the conductor scanned the ticket, and once the train reached that stop, it would go back to empty.

 

[AlanB]

They don't list every stop on a subway, NJT, SEPTA, etc. train do they? That's where Local, Limited, Express, Limited Express, and line diagrams come in.

Actually in the major stations, the variable message boards do tend to flash through every stop that train will serve. And many subways, like for example the DC Metro, do have signs showing all the stops to the end of the line if you board the train that arrives on that side of the platform.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested.

I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.

I wouldn't argue most of that.

However, none of that has anything to do with fixing the line-up at the gate, nor does it explain how getting rid of the line-up at the gate will fix Amtrak's image problem.

They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.

That may have been true when labor was cheap, but I'm somewhat doubtful that's still the case today. Better signage with more precise spotting and earlier notice could potentially reduce labor costs while improving the experience for regular customers.

When you have more than a few passengers boarding the wrong train every day and demanding extraordinary treatment to fix their mistake, it does add up. And having the person who made the mistake standing/sitting there arguing with the conductor over how he/she must fix their screw-up, one is indeed hurting all the other passengers in that car and therefore Amtrak's "image".

There is also probably an element of security here too.

That's a new one on me. How exactly does the kindergarten line improve security if it can be avoided entirely with nothing more than a sleeper ticket?

You don't have people just wandering around on the platform. And in most stations having a sleeper ticket doesn't help you avoid the line. For example, in Chicago your ticket got checked when you walked into that lounge. Now they both know that you belong in the lounge, and that you are indeed traveling on a train that day. And you still get to line up at the back door and get escorted to the platform.

Yes, you've avoided the much longer coach line. But you haven't avoided lines in general.

Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.

Plane? Did you not have any example of a passenger railway that treats their customers like Amtrak does?

So the planes that you fly don't see an agent calling out "we're now boarding rows 10 to 15" for example?

 

[AlanB]

I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.

Indeed, I see this all the time. While LCD/LED signs would enable the entire train to be configured with the appropriate signage relatively easily, the ready crews can't be bothered to even change the electronic numbers on the Viewliners half the time.

However I disagree with your stance that ensuring correct signage on trains is "not something that Amtrak can do." No, it's that it is something that Amtrak is unwilling to do.

No, Amtrak has been trying to get the crews to ensure that those numbers are indeed correctly set.

I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?

Because people don't pay any attention and/or it doesn't occur to them that more than one service serves that station. There are some who simply see a train pull up, a door opens, and they get on it. Clearly that is not a smart thing to be doing, I don't disagree. But that is what some will do. And yet, as I said before, as far as they're concerned it's Amtrak's fault that they got on the wrong train.

By entertaining hose kinds of delusional claims, Amtrak only ensures that such behaviour continues in perpetuity. They need to nip that it the bud and stop enabling these people.

On Deutsche Bahn or on the Berlin U-Bahn, if I got on a train without a ticket I'd be fined 400€. If I complained, they'd tell me to take it to court. The odd inspector might sympathise with me if he genuinely saw I was a helpless tourist with a poor grasp of the language, but not all would. In Japan, you'd simply be forced to pay the additional fare before exiting the fare paid zone via the turnstile. While I'm not saying Amtrak could or should penalise this behaviour, they're certainly in a place where they can refrain from encouraging it by falling over backwards to cater to imbeciles. If Amtrak is going to jump through hoops, why not do so in places that matter, such as customer service? How about maintaining and cleaning their cars? All the labour they waste could be used to prevent the very incidents described in this thread!

In Japan & Germany the passenger doesn't whip out their cell phone and dial 911 to tell the police that they're being kidnapped or held against their will, etc. They also typically don't pull the emergency cord either to stop the train.

They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.

That may have been true when labor was cheap, but I'm somewhat doubtful that's still the case today. Better signage with more precise spotting and earlier notice could potentially reduce labor costs while improving the experience for regular customers.

Exactly. Perhaps a 'make work' scheme is one of the very reasons Amtrak doesn't do as you suggest? If that's the case -- which certainly is likely -- it's a sad state of affairs, as those people could have provided service on board long distance trains instead.

An onboard attendant makes a lot more per hour than a gate attendant does, that onboard attendant also requires meals, a bed on the train, and a hotel room at the other end of the run. NO way that is cheaper!

Does it improve service? Probably. But its still not cheaper.

 

[AlanB]

There is also probably an element of security here too.

That's a new one on me. How exactly does the kindergarten line improve security if it can be avoided entirely with nothing more than a sleeper ticket?

Indeed. There is no 'security' other than that of the 'theatre of the absurd' variety. Though I'm sure Amtrak is more than willing to call it such in order to justify a pointless, wasteful, wrong-headed exercise.

See my response to TS.

Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid.

Unfortunately in this litigation happy society, everyone has to cater to the stupid. Hence all the common-sense warnings on packaging, street signs, etc.

No one, even in the sue-happy US, is going to sue Amtrak because they got on the wrong train. The worst that could happen is Amtrak doesn't charge them a penalty or an extra fare for the additional trip. Again, how do SEPTA, CalTrains, NJT, etc. survive?

SEPTA, CalTrain, NJT all have another train going the other direction typically coming within an hour or less. Except on the NEC, that is not true of Amtrak. Also a passenger boarding the wrong train on say an NJT train, might be taken on average 5 or 6 miles before the mistake can be rectified. On an Amtrak train it could 100 miles before the mistake could be fixed.

I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.

You hit the nail on the head. If only Amtrak management would understand this, they'd be on their way to completely revolutionising the company.

They understand this and they've been making changes. Things are better now than they were 10 years ago. Unfortunately it is an uphill battle; in part because there are some bad managers entrenched at Amtrak and in part because the union resists changes. It also very expensive to keep a manager on every single train every day of the week. And when the cat is away, the mice will play!

 

[Colonel Klink]

Actually in the major stations, the variable message boards do tend to flash through every stop that train will serve. And many subways, like for example the DC Metro, do have signs showing all the stops to the end of the line if you board the train that arrives on that side of the platform.

I stand corrected!

I was thinking more that something like this would be pretty useful and easy to implement:

The hard metal signs are manually switched. Not all stops are shown, but the train number at least is included on the sign.

Or, if they could get the LED/LCD signs to work, something like this:

I think this one actually does scroll through every single stop, which is arguably a lot easier on a high-speed train with limited stops.

The biggest obstacle would be the need to retrofit seats with a sign board indicating when the seat was reserved. Originally, it was a thin piece of cardboard placed in a slot, presumably before departure. Now, I 'm sure they have electronic signs.

Actually, when I was on a DB NachtZug train back in the day (when they still existed), they were still using cardboard inserts. Those trains were all-reserved precisely because people would be sleeping. They tended to group people getting off at similar stops in the same compartment. I actually only recall the electronic signs on the ICE.

This would be the easiest way for Amtrak to implement a reserved seat system.

I'd not go so far as to let passengers choose a specific seat (e.g. 23) though, I'd only allow them to make a generic choice, such as window or aisle, group (i.e. four seats facing each other) or non-group, quiet car or normal, table or no table (where applicable). This is actually how all the trains in other countries I've been on have done it -- allowed generic requests only. (I'm sure there were ways to manually assign a specific seat, but the option was never given to me and the DB website won't allow it.)

Another thing: if you purchased a reservation after the train had departed, even with the electronic signs, your origin and destination were not listed. Instead, there were blocks of reserved seats set-aside for last-minute buyers. Those seats were simply marked 'reserved'. Anyone could snag one as long as they paid the extra 3€ and as long as no one else was holding an assignment for that seat for the same portion of the trip. Everyone else is supposed to sit in the blocks of unreserved seats in other cars. (That, or stand in the aisle as I had to do once when I couldn't get a reservation at all and all the unreserved seats were taken.)

To sort the issue with changing signs on cars at terminals, Amtrak could establish a uniform set of line numbers. Instead of having the line number for a particular car contain the number of the train, they could simply remove the train number. Trains with identical consists (e.g. Crescent, Meteor, Star) would never need to have their line numbers changed unless cars were switched. Trains that split or had through cars would use different numbering conventions for the different sections, much like the Lake Shore does today. (The LSL can't fit the train number of 448 and 449 in the line numbers since there are only 4 digits that can be used per car.)

So instead of seeing cars numbered 6969, 9711, etc. on the Crescent, I'd only see 42, 41, 11, etc.