Silliest OBS Made 'Rules'

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Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.
BTW, the alleged ancient passenger information system used by Amtrak is not really that much more ancient than the ones used by most major airlines. Haven't heard people complaining about the ancient systems used by the airlines too much. I guess since it is a railroad it must be using 19th century computers..... Oh wait! :giggle:
Just a little info, the SABRE reservation system was first written for American Airlines and put online in about 1964, in COBOL! This reservation system is still used and services a fairly large number of airlines (about 400) and a lot of other services. At its heart there are still original lines and sections of code. That makes this about a half century old. The Amtrak ARROW system is quite young by comparison being put online in the late 80's.
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
 
On #30 about a month ago, I asked the SCA why there was no ice out. "The person in DC running the Cap Limited has decided to enforce some Amtrak rule (that no one else seems to know about) that putting ice out is against health regs." I wrote down the name of the DC office person and can find it if anyone is interested. I went to the lounge car, got a big glass full of ice. A few minutes later the SCA shows up with a whole bucket full of ice -- just for me, says "If you don't use it all, just put it out for the others. I can't but you can."

I had gotten to CHI on the CZ in which the sleeper actually had an ice box in the cabinet under where the coffee and juice are put out. The SCA said very few sleepers had them, but so much for it being Amtrak policy.
 
That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.
So some SCAs would leave the built-in ice box empty? It really works well! Ice lasted at least twice as long as in the styrofoam coolers.Hell, I'll be happy to keep it filled myself as long as I can get ice in the lounge car.FWIW, I routinely clean the bathrooms I use, and pack down the towel trash so there's room for more. And it seems to pay off in better behavior by my fellow sleeper passengers for the whole trip.

It's just personal philosophy but I think rules should make sense and then be enforced. The ones that cant be enforced (or never made any sense in the first place) should be dropped. Prosecutorial discretion is not something I favor (or trust).

Looking foward to my next trip. A simple one Charlottesville to Portland on the EB. May 13. Please, no flooding at Devil's Lake this year?
 
Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.
BTW, the alleged ancient passenger information system used by Amtrak is not really that much more ancient than the ones used by most major airlines. Haven't heard people complaining about the ancient systems used by the airlines too much. I guess since it is a railroad it must be using 19th century computers..... Oh wait! :giggle:
Just a little info, the SABRE reservation system was first written for American Airlines and put online in about 1964, in COBOL! This reservation system is still used and services a fairly large number of airlines (about 400) and a lot of other services. At its heart there are still original lines and sections of code. That makes this about a half century old. The Amtrak ARROW system is quite young by comparison being put online in the late 80's.
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
My understanding is that it does, but Amtrak chooses not to use that capability.
 
So some SCAs would leave the built-in ice box empty? It really works well!
Except for the food poisoning. The ice thing is a health safety issue. It's why you no longer see ice machines in motels that have you scoop ice out of a freezer, but instead the ice falls directly into your bucket. Sure if people would wash their hands, or at least not leave the scoop sitting in the ice, but that's too much to hope. Many Sleeping Car Attendants (love that title, must use it more often) ignore the ice rules, but hey, they probably don't believe in the germ theory of disease.

Me, I'm careful to sanitize any ice I use on the train. I normally do this with gin. Can't be too careful.

Looking foward to my next trip. A simple one Charlottesville to Portland on the EB. May 13. Please, no flooding at Devil's Lake this year?
No flooding in North Dakota this year. Drought instead. You'll probably still have slow orders near Church's Ferry, but I wouldn't be surprised if Devils Lake retreats this year.
 
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But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years.
Um, yes airline systems can do it. When they want to. It isn't universal. Kind of depends on where you are going and who is taking you. You can say you've never been kept from seating during booking, but then obviously you haven't flown ever flight on every airline. Duh. I'm just telling you it might be a custom, but it isn't mandatory for the airline.
 
@ OP:

Amtrak Service Standards Manual No. 6 Chapter 8 / Section 2 / J2 (Page 8/194 (or 594) states:

Forms of Payment: "Amtrak accepts US currency on all trains."

Sunny greetings from Rotterdam,

Peter
 
Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.
BTW, the alleged ancient passenger information system used by Amtrak is not really that much more ancient than the ones used by most major airlines. Haven't heard people complaining about the ancient systems used by the airlines too much. I guess since it is a railroad it must be using 19th century computers..... Oh wait! :giggle:
Just a little info, the SABRE reservation system was first written for American Airlines and put online in about 1964, in COBOL! This reservation system is still used and services a fairly large number of airlines (about 400) and a lot of other services. At its heart there are still original lines and sections of code. That makes this about a half century old. The Amtrak ARROW system is quite young by comparison being put online in the late 80's.
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
My understanding is that it does, but Amtrak chooses not to use that capability.
It was tried for awhile with the introduction of Acela First Class svc. The attendants were constantly in conflict with passengers who "did not want to sit there" in their assigned seat. It was a constant "I'll just sit here instead". The problem with assigning seats in advance with long haul trains, is that properly managed (by conductor) LD trains have coaches boarded by destination, ie filling coaches based on quantities and their destination. Since this is a fluid quantity, it is not ideally done by seat assignment. Also off season trains will often have a coach added or deopped from consist on daily basis due to ridership. You can't sell assign seats in 3 coaches and then come departure date, drop a coach because the ridership does not exceed 2 coaches. It is not as simple a concept as an airplane where everyone boards at one location and through one door and deplanes the same way.
 
That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.
Inconsistency is certainly true, the consistency in the inconsistency for me has been that ice is left out in viewliners and not in the superliners. Likely beause the viewliner has the small sink next to the coffee pot.
 
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
There are many, many threads in this forum on why assigning coach seats on LD trains would not work very well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:discuss.amtraktrains.com+assigned+seats&ie=UTF-8
 
That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.
Inconsistency is certainly true, the consistency in the inconsistency for me has been that ice is left out in viewliners and not in the superliners. Likely beause the viewliner has the small sink next to the coffee pot.
Many Amtrak employees say that with Amtrak the only thing you can count on is the inconsistency!

:help: :eek:hboy: :giggle:
 
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
Amtrak could assign seats. They choose not to. What does that have to do with their computer system?
 
On the ice issue:

The USDA, which governs the foodservice operation of AMTRAK, does indeed prohibit the open distribution of ice by non-foodservice staff. This is because this is a wonderful medium to spread disease. The ice scoop must be stored outside the container in a clean closed container. Only the designated ice scoop can be used to get ice (How many times have you dipped your class into ice?) This is very unsanitary. Folks grabbing the ice scoop may not have clean hands. Ice can only be transported in specific containers designated for ice only and cleaned on a regular basis. There are a myriad of issues.

That nasty little bug, known as norovirus THRIVES in a cold environment like ice. And Noro cant be killed with the standard quat sdanitizer. It must be killed with chlorine. It can live on a surface for up to 72 hours.

Yes, I like having ice in the sleepers. I like staying healthy a little bit more.

David, CDM, RD, CFSP.

Seattle
 
On #30 about a month ago, I asked the SCA why there was no ice out. "The person in DC running the Cap Limited has decided to enforce some Amtrak rule (that no one else seems to know about) that putting ice out is against health regs." I wrote down the name of the DC office person and can find it if anyone is interested. I went to the lounge car, got a big glass full of ice. A few minutes later the SCA shows up with a whole bucket full of ice -- just for me, says "If you don't use it all, just put it out for the others. I can't but you can."

I had gotten to CHI on the CZ in which the sleeper actually had an ice box in the cabinet under where the coffee and juice are put out. The SCA said very few sleepers had them, but so much for it being Amtrak policy.
Amtrak is bound by FDA rules. FDA says we cannot leave ice out for passengers to help themselves. Any TA or SA who does so is doing it at the risk of possibly losing their job for violation of policy and Federal foodhandling guidelines.
 
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
There are many, many threads in this forum on why assigning coach seats on LD trains would not work very well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:discuss.amtraktrains.com+assigned+seats&ie=UTF-8
One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?
 
guest said:
One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?
Topic has been discussed into the ground. Read the other threads.

Just because Europe does it different does not make it better.
 
I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business. The struggle for trains to survive in a hostile environment in America is bound to leave scars. So don't look for the rationality of a system that was always valued. We who love trains are lucky to have any experience without going abroad.
 
guest said:
One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?
Topic has been discussed into the ground. Read the other threads.

Just because Europe does it different does not make it better.
But just because America doesn't do it, doesn't make it worse either.
 
But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years.
Um, yes airline systems can do it. When they want to. It isn't universal. Kind of depends on where you are going and who is taking you. You can say you've never been kept from seating during booking, but then obviously you haven't flown ever flight on every airline. Duh. I'm just telling you it might be a custom, but it isn't mandatory for the airline.
I actually prefer that Amtrak doesn't do this. Though I'm almost always traveling alone, I know that there is plenty of room for two sorts of headaches with at-booking assignment:

1) If a family books relatively late in the process, it might be impossible to seat them together. Not that this doesn't happen now (moreson on Regionals than on LD trains), but it would likely increase the chances as the "available" seats end up broken up...and you can't tell me that some folks won't be a bit snippier about moving from "their" reserved seat than they are now.

2) As things stand, the OBS can get a list at the start of a trip and know, within a few people, how many riders will be going to a given destination. Knowing this, they can space passengers out so they don't have to check every car at every stop. A computer assignment can very easily make for utter chaos on that front and eliminate any such efforts and/or result in passengers missing stops.
 
The USDA, which governs the foodservice operation of AMTRAK, does indeed prohibit the open distribution of ice by non-foodservice staff. This is because this is a wonderful medium to spread disease. The ice scoop must be stored outside the container in a clean closed container. Only the designated ice scoop can be used to get ice (How many times have you dipped your class into ice?) This is very unsanitary. Folks grabbing the ice scoop may not have clean hands. Ice can only be transported in specific containers designated for ice only and cleaned on a regular basis.
The funny thing is that food service staff are really no different than any other group of people. If you've ever worked in America's food service industry you'd know that sanitary conditions can vary wildly from location to location and employee to employee. Some employees will be safer than you. Others will be much more careless. Bureaucratic directives that ignore this rather simple reality don't make us any safer. Nor does the demand for fall-down ice machines. I've seen people shove nasty containers into and over the drop spout. How is that any better than using an ice scoop?

Then again, this directive apparently comes from the same regulatory agency can't seem to do squat to prevent American consumers from receiving potentially deadly spinach, tomatoes, lettuce, peppers, peanut butter, beef, chicken, eggs, etc. with e-coli, salmonella, listeria, botulism, etc.

Amtrak staff should absolutely be prevented from using unclean or malicious storage and handling methods, but beyond that it should be up to the consumer as to whether they're willing to accept the risks of self-service contamination. I feel the same way about providing a microwave or toaster oven.

There are many, many threads in this forum on why assigning coach seats on LD trains would not work very well.
Trains all over the world have assigned seating. Even Amtrak has assigned seating. In the case of the sleepers they're assigned at booking. In the case of coach cars it's assigned at boarding; either by you or by the coach attendant. Once you are seated the first time that's your assigned seat for the rest of the trip. Once you realize that this is true, it becomes much more difficult to make blanket statements about what can and cannot work with assigned seating.

The one thing some people want to change is for Amtrak to allow the assigning of coach seats at booking. There is no technical reason I'm aware of that this could not be implemented. Would it be absolutely perfect? Of course not. Would it be a complete disaster? Not likely. But I suppose there would be a transition phase when people who don't like change would be surprised by something they're not familiar with. Or, in the case of New Yorkers, they might become needlessly belligerent and unruly toward the staff and fellow customers.

1) If a family books relatively late in the process, it might be impossible to seat them together. Not that this doesn't happen now (moreson on Regionals than on LD trains), but it would likely increase the chances as the "available" seats end up broken up...and you can't tell me that some folks won't be a bit snippier about moving from "their" reserved seat than they are now.
On airlines they don't generally assign every last seat at booking. Some seats are left unassigned and can be used to for last-minute bookings by groups. One of the things that has surprised me about AU is how little understanding there seems to be for how trains work in other countries, or how other forms of transit work right here at home.

2) As things stand, the OBS can get a list at the start of a trip and know, within a few people, how many riders will be going to a given destination. Knowing this, they can space passengers out so they don't have to check every car at every stop. A computer assignment can very easily make for utter chaos on that front and eliminate any such efforts and/or result in passengers missing stops.
Utter chaos simply from assigning seats at booking? You don't think that's a major overreaction?
 
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Texas,

Possibly, but only marginally so on a longer train. I hate to say it, but (especially if the speakers are out or the stop happens later at night) trying to round up folks for some of the earlier stops on the SB Meteor is likely a daunting task for the OBS if they're scattered throughout five coaches. You'd be in the same situation if you assigned seats at booking for them, though, if the computer didn't make an effort to fill cars in some sensible order. Also, when I'm referring to chaos, I'm not referring to the train breaking down in confusion...I'm referring to the fact that, as a rule, the Meteor staff at present (since I'm most familiar with LD coach on this route) can clump the Richmond folks and so forth together and get them all off in the same car, while with a computer they're likely to have them spread all over the place (or partly clumped, with later bookings thrown in here and there for good measure).

The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way. Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in some fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.

Basically, if there's an irregular "bump" in demand (say that for some reason you have 20 "extra" people going to RMT), I think it makes more sense to let the OBS figure out how to handle moving that around as far as seating goes than to have a computer potentially put folks in the "wrong" car (say that overflow eventually goes to wherever there's space...if you do that, sooner or later a number of folks seated in the "wrong" coach for a destination is going to get overlooked by a combination of a bad speaker and staff not thinking of them being there). Part of this is me not trusting computers...but part of it is an honest gut feeling that the OBS has a better handle on it than a booking office computer is likely to.
 
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