Slumbercoaches or sectional sleepers?

[GlobalistPotato]

Mmmkay, so lets say that Amtrak gets a big new equipment order for their LD/overnight trains, which would lead to an expansion of LD services (more routes, longer trains, multiple frequines/day). Of course getting such expansion to happen is another story, so dont give me the old "amtrak doesnt have the money/equipment - congress isnt going to fund this, etc"

Anyway, in this expansion, Amtrak introduces some sort of "intermediate class" - something nicer than a coach seat (aka a bed), but without the full perks of a sleeper (like meals included in ticket or something like that). Of course it'd also be cheaper than a sleeper room.

There's two different solutions that come to mind - slumbercoaches and sectional sleepers. There aren't any slumbercoaches anymore, and you'll have to travel to Canada to ride in a sectional sleeper.

Now, which would you prefer if you were a traveler?

I think I'd prefer sectional sleepers. Got no time to explain, but think of sectional sleepers to sleeper rooms as youth hostels are to hotels. They do work.

 

[TimePeace]

I don't know much about the differences between the two types you mention, but as I have said here more than once, I would welcome an option to the huge price differential between coach and roomette now.

For me, a place to be horizontal on a mattress overnight would make a world of difference - a curtain and a quiet car would make it SO much easier to travel long distances. I'd love to have to option of a meal in the diner, but not necessarily all meals. I'd continue to bring much of my own food along. And access to a communal room like a cafe car.

 

[LA Resident]

Mmmkay, so lets say that Amtrak gets a big new equipment order for their LD/overnight trains, which would lead to an expansion of LD services (more routes, longer trains, multiple frequines/day). Of course getting such expansion to happen is another story, so dont give me the old "amtrak doesnt have the money/equipment - congress isnt going to fund this, etc"

Anyway, in this expansion, Amtrak introduces some sort of "intermediate class" - something nicer than a coach seat (aka a bed), but without the full perks of a sleeper (like meals included in ticket or something like that). Of course it'd also be cheaper than a sleeper room.

There's two different solutions that come to mind - slumbercoaches and sectional sleepers. There aren't any slumbercoaches anymore, and you'll have to travel to Canada to ride in a sectional sleeper.

Now, which would you prefer if you were a traveler?

I think I'd prefer sectional sleepers. Got no time to explain, but think of sectional sleepers to sleeper rooms as youth hostels are to hotels. They do work.

I rode the Canadian in March from Vancouver to Toronto and the train's single rooms are essentially the same as the slumbercoaches on the old B&O and other lines. The bed width of the slumbercoaches is not as wide as the sectional sleepers/berths on the Canadian, but the slumbercoaches come with sink and toilet, and are private during the day, which the sectionals are not. A sectional/berth is nice as long as only one is occupied; if both are occupied, you have the annoyance, imho, of having someone sitting across from you most of the day, either backwards or forwards, with the consequential loss of comfortable leg space.

Personally, I think it's a toss up between which one Amtrak could adopt. I agree that at least one alternative to the pricey present private room menu would be nice.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: As one who got to ride in Both Slumbercoach and Sectional Sleepers back in the day, Id welcome the idea of an Itermediate Type Option such as a bed w/o meals or other Sleeper Perks! Now that Sleepers are High Bucket and Sold Out on Almost All LD Trains, Amtrak Planners perhaps could look at Redoing a few of the Old Viewliners and Superliners into such a Car once the New Cars are into Service but this will be several Years! :help:

 

[Mackensen]

For my part, I see three great benefits from rooms:

• Sleeping horizontal
  
• None of the ambient noises/smells from coach
  
• Gratis meals in the diner
  

The first two are most important to me. My sense is that a Slumbercoach would better fit that bill than a section, but the only time I've done a section was in Europe, and I was by myself!

 

[railiner]

The Slumbercoach is my all-time favorite rail accomodation. I have made over 20 trips in them between Denver, Chicago, and New York years ago. I have traveled once in a section sleeper on VIA's former overnight train between Montreal and Toronto.

I will admit that the mattresses are roomier in the section's, but having a truly private accommodation easily trumps that in my opinion. One of the attractions of the Single Slumber was the ability to easily access the private toilet. I doubt it would be possible or practical to have that many retention type toilets in a modern car, however.

 

[user 1215]

What is the difference between a slumber and sectional?

 

[railiner]

What is the difference between a slumber and sectional?

Section is the old style Pullman accommodation, where two facing seats will come together at night like in a Superliner roomette, while the upper berth is lowered from the wall above the window. Heavy curtains provide privacy. The occupant of the lower berth is entitled to the forward facing seat for daytime travel.

Single Slumbercoaches are small private rooms arranged in a 'duplex' fashion where they partially extend over and under the adjacent rooms utilizing the height of the car to maximize space. Double Slumbercoach rooms are pretty much like Viewliner roomettes.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

How about "neither of the above"? I'd rather see slightly more seating in coach so that the seats could actually lie flat, like international business class or first class seats. With, say, 75" of pitch (instead of 50"), you could probably fit 40 people upstairs in a Superliner coach car instead of 62.

Looking at typical low-bucket, cross country fares (I chose CHI-LAX on the SWC), coach fare is $149. With only 2/3 of the seats of a normal coach car, you'd have to charge a 50% premium, or $225 each way, to make up the revenue. At $450 round trip, that's very competitive with coach airfare. At a 100% premium over coach, you're still only charging $600 round trip, which is not much more than coach - I think a LOT of people would pay that premium to travel in comfort by train.

On the other hand, you could fit the same number of people upstairs with a car entirely filled with roomettes, instead of the bedroom / roomette split. However, the first-class approach would allow people traveling by themselves to buy just 1 seat, instead of eating the cost of a whole roomette, a seating arrangement that is sorely missing in Amtrak's current lineup (and is probably the point of this thread).

There are several benefits to this approach:

1) The familiar frame of reference ("it's like flying super-deluxe first class, but a lot cheaper!") would appeal to more people, especially first-time travelers. The "surprise" newbies feel when they first see their roomette is a regular feature of trip reports here. "First-class, lie-flat seat" is pretty self explanatory.

2) Those who think Amtrak should be in the transportation business rather than the "land cruise" business can hardly complain about a business-class seat, no matter how fancy, since it isn't a room.

3) One of the worst parts about roomettes & bedrooms is that you can't see as much as you can in a lounge or even a coach car - you can't look forward or backward at all, only straight sideways. If Amtrak could build a coach car with lie-flat seats and big windows (like a Sightseer lounge), I bet it would sell like hotcakes.

 

[The Journalist]

I rather like DP Robert's idea. The main issue with the current coach seats and roomettes is that they both work best if you've got two people traveling together.. In coach, sleeping next to someone you know-or especially a SO-is way easier than next to a stranger (i've lucked out on this; my main trip, Reno-Salt Lake, is not busy at all in coach, so i've usually been able to get a pair of seats to myself). In a roomette, buying it for one person is nonsensically expensive most of the time. Lay-flat, high-pitch seats, perhaps configured in a 2x1 arrangement, would fill this void nicely, as well as avoiding the "land cruise" "stigma" of bedroom cars.

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

I sleep on my side . I would GLADLY pay to have a flat coach seat .

make it $40 more a night and you have me sold !

Peter

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The word is SECTION, not "sectional". I have hundreds of preAmtrak timetables and the word "sectional" does not appear anywhere. People are getting the word sectional from furniture ads and commercials. But the word is never applied to railroad sleeping car terminology.

Sections and slumbercoaches are almost from different planets, historically.

I guess there has been something kind of like a section as long as there has been sleeping space on trains at all.

But the slumbercoach was invented very late (in railroad terms, that is) being invented about 1956. The passenger business was getting in trouble and the bright new slumbercoaches were introduced to try to reinvigorate train travel.

All slumbercoaches were lightweight stainless steel streamlined cars. Whereas sections were mostly heavyweight but some streamlined section cars ran in the streamlined trains of this country as well as Canada, which, as noted, still has them.

There were never more than about 24 or so slumbercoaches ever built, even though they obviously made a big impact on the memory. Whereas thousands of sleeping cars with sections have been built. If you ever see the movie "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe you will see a section.

One more thing, sections and rooms were often built within the same cars as, for example six sections six roomettes four double bedrooms. There were many many designs of sleeping car floor plans.

 

[train person]

How about "neither of the above"? I'd rather see slightly more seating in coach so that the seats could actually lie flat, like international business class or first class seats. With, say, 75" of pitch (instead of 50"), you could probably fit 40 people upstairs in a Superliner coach car instead of 62.

'Seating' coaches on SNCF overnight trains used to have such seating arrangements. Not entirely lie flat, but good enough to stretch out on. Good enough to fall sleep en route from Montpellier to Avignon (although the wine at dinner might have helped.....) and wake up stood in the platform at Avignon and getting to the door about 10 seconds before they locked!

 

[ZugTren]

What is it with Americans and their insisting on having a room to themselves, complete with toilet and/or shower, and expecting it for a song?? Having travelled extensively in Europe, there are MANY options, but people need to be realistic about what they're going to get for what price. In Europe, for the most part, meals are NEVER included with sleepers. Most sleeper travelers use shared rooms (couchettes, etc.), though there are private rooms available, for a premium price. There are also special "superreclining" seats, particularly in Germany, which have wider seats with "wings" for additional privacy. How about thinking outside the "gotta have my space" box?

 

[Shanghai]

Neither the slumbercoach or the sectionals are appealing to me.

I think both are too small for me.

I don't think I would like the no meals option either.

I prefer the present roomette when I travel alone.

 

[dlagrua]

I've only seen slumbercoach cars in museums.

The rooms are tiny staggered single bed units with a toilet and a sink. They are are both sides of the car similar to the way roomettes are arranged, excpet that there is a high unit that had two or three steps up and a low unit at floor level. I sat in one and it has a chair during the day and a pull out (or pull down) bed in the evening. The high/low duplex configuration allowed for an amazing 40 or 45 passengers to have their own private room. I believe that there were also two bedrooms in that car tht allowed for couples to travel together. The most important benefit to the railroads was that of increased capacity. Today a single traveler must book a room or roomette for two. In years past single travelers could purchase their own private one bed unit. Duplex rooms were not spacious but they were a step above coach that you could buy at a very low price. I doubt that we will ever see the single bed sleeping car duplex configuration again.

 

[Guest]

Slumbercoaches look complicated to build and operate. Lots of moving pieces and just kind of strange in general.

Sections look like you get the same density as roomettes or 4 beds for the size of 8 coach seats.

How about couchettes? 6 beds in the space of 8 coach seats.

I think Am-club BC on LD routes would be nice. 66/67 in BC is the only train that I can sit in a chair and sleep decently overnight.

If I have to sleep overnight in coach I don't look forward to the trip and look at the possibilities of flying. First class sleeper service is only going up in price and usually too expensive for me now. All I need is a flat bed so I can rest, I don't need to feel special or be waited on. If Amtrak can't be fast, then they need to provide the bare essentials like a flat bed. I would ditch the airlines in a heartbeat if there was a reasonably priced bed on the train.

 

[TimePeace]

What is it with Americans and their insisting on having a room to themselves, complete with toilet and/or shower, and expecting it for a song?? Having travelled extensively in Europe, there are MANY options, but people need to be realistic about what they're going to get for what price. In Europe, for the most part, meals are NEVER included with sleepers. Most sleeper travelers use shared rooms (couchettes, etc.), though there are private rooms available, for a premium price. There are also special "superreclining" seats, particularly in Germany, which have wider seats with "wings" for additional privacy. How about thinking outside the "gotta have my space" box?

I really don't think the tone of the thread suggested that anyone "insists on having a room to themself" - we're just exploring options here, as a fantasy as was pointed out in the beginning - we are not discussing the actual likelihood of any of this happening any time soon.

I for one don't like being characterized as "an American insisting" on anything. I am proud to be an American while agreeing that much is wrong. And I certainly don't agree that in general, "Europe" is any better. (Is all of Europe just the same? Or is there any variety of thinking there as there is here?)

Happy Independence Day, where ever you are.

 

[Shanghai]

I have been on many European trains and find them similar to Amtrak trains.

I did like the First Class coaches (with assigned seats) in Germany. There isn't

a comparable service on Amtrak. The compartments for day travel are like a roomette

with two bench seats and can accommodate six passengers with racks for storage above

the seats.

We have taken sleeper bedrooms in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic,

France, Denmark & Hungary. They are like bedrooms in Superliners but without bathrooms.

They were comfortable with the same space as Amtrak bedrooms.

I have taken the Eurostar,the TGV and the DB ICE trains. These trains are very similar

to the Acela, but they do travel at faster speeds on many legs of the journey.

 

[chandj]

"The slumbercoach, in economic terms, was part of the American railways’ attempt, in the 1950s, to recapture market share lost to airlines, buses and the automobile by providing upgraded accommodations for non-first class passengers." There were 18 built, and eventually all 18 served on Amtrak at one time or another. One was destroyed in a rail accident and one through vandalism, but the other 18 were in service as late as 1995. I never got to ride one but thought I would see one at the train museum in Sacramento, but did not. Some of the remaining cars can still be seen, though:

Silver Repose — Built 1956 for Burlington's Denver Zephyr, now at Tennessee Central Railway Museum, Nashville, Tennessee

Silver Slumber — Built 1956 for Burlington's Denver Zephyr, now at Gold Coast Railroad Museum, Miami, Florida

Dreamland — Built 1956 for B&O's Columbian, now at Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Museum, Baltimore, Maryland

Loch Sloy — Built 1959 for NP/CB&Q North Coast Limited, now at Illinois Railway Museum, Union, Illinois

Loch Arkaig - Built 1959 for NYC 20th Century Limited, now at Southeastern Railway Museum, Duluth, Georgia

They were retired not because there was no demand for slumbercoach accomodations, but because they got old and also didn't have the retention type toilets. I would like to see them brought back!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Look up slumbercoach on the internet and you will find all you ever need and more. I got some info on sections under Railroad Sleeping Cars.

 

[anir dendroica]

I'd vote for couchettes: they seat almost as many as coach but give everyone a bed to lay on. In Sweden I took a 15-hour overnight journey that was something like $80 for coach and $110 for couchette. I'd gladly pay up to 30% more to have the opportunity to lay down.

Two facing bench seats (for three people each) convert to six bunks at night. My only complaint is the limited sightseeing opportunity.

Mark

 

[PaulM]

I have been on many European trains and find them similar to Amtrak trains.

Except for speed, frequency, and uncomplicated boarding. I once met a European that raved about Amtrak. But then we were in the CZ's SSL climbing the Rockies.

The compartments for day travel are like a roomette with two bench seats and can accommodate six passengers with racks for storage above the seats.

A roomette holding 6 people? You don't mention that it could be 6 strangers. But they are nice for a small group; and I usually prefer them to the open coaches. If you get bored, you can go out into the hall, open, the window, and stick your head out. :help: If I'm tired, I find an empty one, close the curtains, and lay down. Chances are you won't be disturbed.

We have taken sleeper bedrooms in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic,

France, Denmark & Hungary. They are like bedrooms in Superliners but without bathrooms.

They were comfortable with the same space as Amtrak bedrooms.

The newer ones have "deluxe" and "economy" accommodations. I've only taken the latter; and I would agree that they are similar to Amtrak roomettes. I got one booked for Munich to Berlin and the cost for 2 was 199E, about $280.

I have taken the Eurostar,the TGV and the DB ICE trains. These trains are very similar

to the Acela, but they do travel at faster speeds on many legs of the journey.

I've been on the Eurostar (1999 and 2000), but not Acela. 2nd class reminded me of an airliner, i.e., cramped.

 

[PaulM]

.. the only time I've done a section was in Europe, and I was by myself!

Are you sure you weren't in a couchette, which are quite different from sections?

As a kid, I frequently traveled with my family in sections and thought it was the lap of luxury.

 

[Shanghai]

I have been on many European trains and find them similar to Amtrak trains.

Except for speed, frequency, and uncomplicated boarding. I once met a European that raved about Amtrak. But then we were in the CZ's SSL climbing the Rockies.

I agree. The boarding procedure with the lettered locations on the platform is far superior to Amtrak.

Most stations have restaurants, shops and other features not usually found in Amtrak stations.

The compartments for day travel are like a roomette with two bench seats and can accommodate six passengers with racks for storage above the seats.

A roomette holding 6 people? You don't mention that it could be 6 strangers. But they are nice for a small group; and I usually prefer them to the open coaches. If you get bored, you can go out into the hall, open, the window, and stick your head out. :help: If I'm tired, I find an empty one, close the curtains, and lay down. Chances are you won't be disturbed.

True about the strangers. Sometimes these are the only accommodations available.

We would take our kids to Grundenwald, Switzerland for summer camp and would fill one of these units.

We have taken sleeper bedrooms in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic,

France, Denmark & Hungary. They are like bedrooms in Superliners but without bathrooms.

They were comfortable with the same space as Amtrak bedrooms.

The newer ones have "deluxe" and "economy" accommodations. I've only taken the latter; and I would agree that they are similar to Amtrak roomettes. I got one booked for Munich to Berlin and the cost for 2 was 199E, about $280.

One Christmas holiday we took the Orient Express train from Vienna back to Paris and had a double bedroom

accommodation. It was very nice and also very expensive!!

I have taken the Eurostar,the TGV and the DB ICE trains. These trains are very similar

to the Acela, but they do travel at faster speeds on many legs of the journey.

I've been on the Eurostar (1999 and 2000), but not Acela. 2nd class reminded me of an airliner, i.e., cramped.

On our first Eurostar trip, all we could get was second class in a smoking car (1998). It was comfortable but

as you said, a bit cramped. We later took a couple trips to London on the Eurostar in first class. I think

the Acela first class is nicer than the Eurostar.