Someone made a HUGE mistake..

[Just-Thinking-51]

I would think Amtrak is going to putting up a new sign at the end of its dispatch territory.

Creative dispatching gets a another crew in trouble. Glad to hear that there back. No contact no fowl.

Move on, adjust the training program. Sure Septa has banned them from its tracks.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Shepard "Stockholm Syndrome" Smith is just now reporting this on FOX News and the B-Roll is of Amtrak California Service!

 

[CHamilton]

California cars in Pennsylvania? Guess somebody really did get lost

 

[SarahZ]

Now it has gone international: DailyMail

I LOVE the fact that they use a stock photo (without calling it such) of a locomotive not yet in revenue service!

They also spelled "Amtrak" wrong in one paragraph, appear to blame Amtrak for hitting a car in the same sentence, and then used the wrong name for the "Chicago Tribune".

There's a reason I call it "The Daily Fail".

 

[fredevad]

I would think Amtrak is going to putting up a new sign at the end of its dispatch territory.

Makes me think of a scene from a movie...

"STOP FORREST!"

:giggle:

 

[chakk]

Looks like they were serving meatballs for lunch in Bala Cynwyd, PA

 

[jis]

According to reports the crew was charged with Rule 90 "unecessarily delaying a train" and they served a 3 day suspension, and are now back on duty.

 

[Acela150]

3 Days for wrong track running? :unsure:

 

[Acela150]

Wasn't the problem just broken cab signal in the cab car?

From a reliable source to me posted on TO that this indeed was the issue.

 

[jis]

3 Days for wrong track running? :unsure:

Apparently they followed all signal indications, so technically they were just on unqualified territory but never did any wrong track running, or so it was explained. John B is much more knowledgeable about these details so he would know better why it was only a Rule 90 violation (roughly speaking they went walkabout ) and nothing else.

 

[John Bobinyec]

3 Days for wrong track running? :unsure:

Apparently they followed all signal indications, so technically they were just on unqualified territory but never did any wrong track running, or so it was explained. John B is much more knowledgeable about these details so he would know better why it was only a Rule 90 violation (roughly speaking they went walkabout ) and nothing else.

Because there is no "Thou Shalt Not Be Stupid" rule?

Seriously, that's about all that they really did wrong. They broke no signal rules. They broke no "authority of movement" rules. They broke no flagging rules. There was no real danger to the train.

I think what happened was:

- the train pulled into 30th Street engine-first to make a station stop and to change ends.

- cab signals on the cab-end didn't work. The decision to run to NYP engine-first was made.

- train ran cab-first to Zoo in order to turn the train.

- the tower drilled them into a non-main line track in order to stop and change ends. I would have done that, too. Tying up a main track with a partially disabled train is never a good idea.

- some sort of miscommunication occurred about exactly where to change ends occurred. Perhaps the tower's instructions were vague. Perhaps the radios died. Perhaps the crew should have used common sense.

If the crew had stopped and gotten instructions, the incident wouldn't have happened.

Incidentally, in cab signal territory, the cab signals are supposed to be tested before the train leaves its initial station. This requires a cab signal test loop. One could argue that the engine's cab signals should be tested again because it would now be commencing a new trip once the swap had been made. So where would that have to have been done? I'm guessing there are no cab signal test loops at Zoo. Perhaps the crew was going to the nearest one. Who knows.

jb

 

[Bob Dylan]

Engineer to Conductor: "Opps!"Looks like we screwed UP!"

Conductor to Engineer: "Where the Hell are We???"

Engineer to Conductor: "How the Hell do i know?! Aren't you in Charge of this Train??"Maybe we should call Dispatch?

Conductor to Engineer: "Let's get together on our Story so we're on the same Page so we can Get out of This! Then we'll Call!"

Engineer to Conductor: "Roger Roger!"

 

[jis]

I always wondered where they tested their cab signal when the ACE Atlantic City trains and before that Amtrak Atlantic City to North trains reversed direction at Shore interlocking to enter the NEC either in that siding, or occasionally even on a mainline track. Honestly I have no idea what the exact rules are for such situations. Clearly at the first opportunity where Cab Signal is found to be not working one has to revert to non-cab signal operation, which slows the train down a lot. I experienced that once on an Acela to Boston.

 

[lo2e]

Obviously this seems to be a very rare case of the cab car not functioning properly, using radio to communicate between the cab car and the engine.

But how fast would they have been moving "backwards"? Is it possible there was a mechanical malfunction that had them going too fast, therefore needing extra track mileage to get stopped?

(I'm grasping at straws here, trying to think if there's ANY logical reason for this to happen)

 

[jis]

They were not moving backwards. The train as I understand it was being controlled out of the cab car. Only problem with the cab car was that cab signal was not working. They were therefore running on visual signal indication. I strongly suspect that they were going no faster than restricting speed through all this, but don;t know for sure.

Most likely it was miscommunication between Zoo dispatcher and the train operating crew. If the route had not be pre-set up by SEPTA for the following SEPTA train, possibly they would have found a stop signal at CP Valley, and all this "walkabout" would not have happened.

 

[AlanB]

But how fast would they have been moving "backwards"? Is it possible there was a mechanical malfunction that had them going too fast, therefore needing extra track mileage to get stopped?

(I'm grasping at straws here, trying to think if there's ANY logical reason for this to happen)

They went more than 2 miles out of their way, and up a ramp to a flyover. They would have needed to be moving awfully fast in order to overrun by that much. And the first part of the move would have been through a major interlocking that already has restricted speeds in the first place.
PS. I'm not sure that it would take even an Acela going 150 MPH that long to stop if they were applying the brakes. Especially with the uphill ramp.

 

[user 1215]

So - when compared to the other Amtrak Violation made by the crew on Train #80 earlier this week, that crew was immediately removed from the train and they had to get a replacement crew.

When this train made it back to 30th Street Station, wasn't it now Engine-First oriented to NYP? Why not just run the train then?

Was this crew immediately replaced? Who authorized the Wye? If the Wye was authorized, was it just the extra 2-mile journey (where there could have been but thankfully there wasn't a SEPTA scooter) that contributed to the Rule 90 violation?

 

[AlanB]

When this train made it back to 30th Street Station, wasn't it now Engine-First oriented to NYP? Why not just run the train then?

No it came back to Philly exactly as it left in terms of orientation. It needed to go directly from where it stopped to NYP in order to have kept the engine in the lead. With the mistake, they only went down 1 leg of the wye and never completed the turn as it were.

Was this crew immediately replaced?

Yes.

Who authorized the Wye?

I would assume the dispatcher; perhaps in consultation with mechanical.

If the Wye was authorized, was it just the extra 2-mile journey (where there could have been but thankfully there wasn't a SEPTA scooter) that contributed to the Rule 90 violation?

I'd guess that at best the crew should have gone a mile, and most likley less than that. Probably about a 1/2 mile would be my guess, but others may have a better idea than I. Instead, they not only covered that first mile, but then proceeded another 2 or 3 miles down the wrong track.

 

[fairviewroad]

I'd guess that at best the crew should have gone a mile, and most likley less than that. Probably about a 1/2 mile would be my guess, but others may have a better idea than I. Instead, they not only covered that first mile, but then proceeded another 2 or 3 miles down the wrong track.

...and only stopped when they literally ran out of track. One wonders what would have happened if that line still continued (as it did long ago) to Norristown or even across the river to Manayunk/Ivy Ridge, as it did up until the mid-80's. Might have been a bit more than a "three-hour tour, a three-hour tour."

 

[jis]

Hey they had signal authority for wherever they went. So presumably they'd have gone if they had further signal authority.

 

[user 1215]

When this train made it back to 30th Street Station, wasn't it now Engine-First oriented to NYP? Why not just run the train then?

No it came back to Philly exactly as it left in terms of orientation. It needed to go directly from where it stopped to NYP in order to have kept the engine in the lead. With the mistake, they only went down 1 leg of the wye and never completed the turn as it were.

So they proceeded cab first back up the same switch they came in from, and backed into 30th engine first? Seems like they might as well have finished making the Wye turn.

 

[PerRock]

I was watching clips from one of my favorite TV shows & this bit seemed quite fitting:

http://youtu.be/HwX4zHEqpH4?t=2m31s

peter

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ah yes, now I understand what happened. I'm from Philadelphia so I remmeber the three-pronged wye by the river. One endgoes to Harrisburg, another to 30th Street, and another to New York. A long time ago the PRR ran through trains from New York to points west that bypassed 30th Street Station and only stopped at North Philadelphia, on the New York direction of the wye. Then they would swtich through the wye to head on in the Harrisburg direction without going to 30th Street Station. Now Amtrak runs one end into 30th and backtracks towards New York withoutswitching the locmotive around.

The thing is, I thought the Pittsburgh Subway was no longer operational.

 

[fairviewroad]

The thing is, I thought the Pittsburgh Subway was no longer operational.

It is, partly for situations like this one. It's not used for scheduled service because Amtrak/PA evidently don't feel

as though there's demand for a HAR-NYP "express" service that skips 30th Street. I think they're mostly correct...

though you could probably run a through train on Fri/Sun afternoon that would do well, but by and large there's no

point in skipping PHL. (If you really wanted a faster service between Harrisburg and New York, you would run

it via Allentown, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.)

 

[AlanB]

So they proceeded cab first back up the same switch they came in from, and backed into 30th engine first?

The train came from Harrisburg with the engine leading and pulled into 30th Street with the engine on the southern end of the train. After discovering the problem, with the cab car leading, the train proceeded back west on the same track that it had just used to reach 30th Street for a short distance. After clearing a key switch, train was to go east with engine leading.

Instead the crew kept going & going & going.

At that point, after stopping just feet from the end of the track, the train was recrewed and a SEPTA pilot was added, and the train was returned to 30th Street.

Seems like they might as well have finished making the Wye turn.

Had they finished the wye turn, then the train would have arrived back into Philly with the engine on the southern end and the cab car that they couldn't use on the north end. In other words, going around the wye would have accomplished nothing except maybe making the passengers dizzy.

And at this point with the way things were going, they might well have ended up in Delaware.