Southwest Chief derailment (June 2022)

[crescent-zephyr]

Over coffee almost any functioning adult can admit those kids took their lives in their own hands and suffered the consequences of invincible thinking

I don’t agree. If there were no lights, Bella, Gates, etc. and the visibility was low, that brings in many questions.

It’s not illegal to drive if you are deaf or hard of hearing. There should be visual warnings anywhere that trains operate at high-er speeds (maybe 30 mph?).

 

[Tlcooper44]

I don’t agree. If there were no lights, Bella, Gates, etc. and the visibility was low, that brings in many questions.

It’s not illegal to drive if you are deaf or hard of hearing. There should be visual warnings anywhere that trains operate at high-er speeds (maybe 30 mph?).

It seems pretty crazy to me that a train can operate at 90mph at a crossing like this.
It seems even crazier that I seem to be in the minority for thinking that is crazy.

 

[frequentflyer]

It seems pretty crazy to me that a train can operate at 90mph at a crossing like this.
It seems even crazier that I seem to be in the minority for thinking that is crazy.

The SWC hits 90 in Arizona too and I bet there are more gates like this on this busy route that see 60-80 freight trains a day many doing 70 mph. It would be nice if all of the US would be grade free like most of the NEC.

 

[Amtrak Apple]

I also saw the video from the farmer yesterday. Sounds like the locals have pointed this out as a problem for YEARS and have gotten nowhere. Pretty sad this will be what it takes to fix this intersection.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’m seeing some news reports say 3 on board fatalities. :-(

 

[Brian_tampa]

Trains Magazine is reporting that Missouri just this past February recommended installing warning lights and gates at this crossing. From this new information I presume that the crossing was recognized as hazardous, even with the little amount of vehicular traffic, and it warrants more than a stop sign and crossbucks.

Site of Southwest Chief accident had been recommended for grade-crossing improvements - Trains

 

[Railspike]

When you factor in the number of grade crossings in the U.S. and the number of both freight and passenger trains that pass over these crossings daily, at some point there's going to be an incident (regardless of how the incident happened or who's at fault). It's inevitable.

When you realize that a passenger train carrying 200+ passengers derailed at 90MPH with seven cars on their side and there were only two fatalities on the train, that should say something about the safety measures that have been implemented (i.e. tightlock couplers, etc). Trains are still the safest way to travel.

 

[uncleboots]

If this has already been mentioned, I apologize, but Amtrak has announced that Train 3 will be departing from Kansas City and Train 4’s end point will also be Kansas City for the next couple of days

 

[John Bobinyec]

If this has already been mentioned, I apologize, but Amtrak has announced that Train 3 will be departing from Kansas City and Train 4’s end point will also be Kansas City for the next couple of days

Can you please point to the announcement? I haven't been able to find it.
Thanks,
jb

 

[Larry H.]

Have there been any studies out there about propensity for flipping with single-level vs. bi-level cars? This seems to happen a lot with the bi-level Amtrak cars. It just seems to me that these trains should not be tipping over when derailing on a completely straight section of track.

I was going to ask the same question, it does seem light being taller makes them more prone to ending up on there sides?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Trains are still the safest way to travel.

This is not true. Air Travel and Bus travel are both safer.

 

[Amtrak25]

I don't know. But intercity buses have gotten taller and taller with increasingly larger windows. They do seem to flip far more readily and have their windows pop out than the old GMD PD parlor coaches.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

Can you please point to the announcement? I haven't been able to find it.
Thanks,
jb

This is from the latest announcement on the website,

Service Update:

As a result of the derailment, passengers who were traveling onboard Train 4, which departed L.A. on Sunday, June 26, will be reaccommodated as quickly as possible on other trains or buses as available. Additionally, Southwest Chief Train 3, scheduled to depart Chicago on Tuesday, June 28, will now originate at Kansas City (KCY).

You have to read Amtrak into this, but they ran 4 into KCY this morning (6/28) and it will turn to become 3 tonight. Not sure if they are bussing through pax between Chicago and Kansas City or putting them on 318/319. They just say alternate transportation will be provided.

 

[John819]

I was going to ask the same question, it does seem light being taller makes them more prone to ending up on there sides?

More to the point, because of the higher level the "secondary collision" (passenger hitting side of car) will be greater.

 

[Tlcooper44]

By the stats of the last 12 years, commercial air travel on legacy carriers (and similarly large American airlines) is actually safer than Amtrak travel.
Of course, trains by and large are indeed safer than planes, by and large.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

multiple news reports are saying “3 passengers” have died. 2 at the site, and 1 later at the hospital.

 

[west point]

Thoughts.
1. The farmer said there were several crossings of the rail line near there that were all the same problems. Said he had taken it to local governments up to state.
2. Truck was carrying gravel for some nearby project. Driver might have had previous crossings of the track?.
3. Was truck single axel or dual axels? With gravel might be load was over for the rated capacity of truck. Maintenance record of truck? n
4. The road intersects the rail line at an acute angle. So the loco did not head on collide with the truck. the scene seems to have all the truck remains on one side of the tracks. It may be that acut angle contributed to the train over turning? NTSB will determine .
5. Noticed a block signal was taken out on only one side of track. Could not tell if it was on #4s track or other track.
6 Evidently engineer has survived. Hope his condition is OK.
7. Chief's passengers could take Mule and Lincoln to CHI. Other direction way too early at CHI.

 

[Bierboy]

Four deaths now according to the KC Star. 150 injured. Crossing looks like a POS

 

[Brian_tampa]

Thoughts.
1. The farmer said there were several crossings of the rail line near there that were all the same problems. Said he had taken it to local governments up to state.
2. Truck was carrying gravel for some nearby project. Driver might have had previous crossings of the track?.
3. Was truck single axel or dual axels? With gravel might be load was over for the rated capacity of truck. Maintenance record of truck? n
4. The road intersects the rail line at an acute angle. So the loco did not head on collide with the truck. the scene seems to have all the truck remains on one side of the tracks. It may be that acut angle contributed to the train over turning? NTSB will determine .
5. Noticed a block signal was taken out on only one side of track. Could not tell if it was on #4s track or other track.
6 Evidently engineer has survived. Hope his condition is OK.
7. Chief's passengers could take Mule and Lincoln to CHI. Other direction way too early at CHI.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article262950423.html

The farmer interviewed on the video with this newspaper link also said he has had multiple discussions with BNSF, MoDOT, and others regarding the safety of this crossing over the last several years. So BNSF clearly knew about the hazards with this crossing. MoDOT also knew, yet they put this upgrade project on hold from last year according to the farmer.

An eyewitness account said the truck stalled going up or at the top of the steep approach and then got hit by the train once it started going again across the tracks. That makes sense as a dump truck that has to stop at the crossing (due to the stop sign), would not be able to speed up and clear the tracks very fast if it was also on an incline. Same situation for the farm equipment that uses the road I suppose, which is why the farmer was concerned. This is why warning lights and gates would have helped to give early warning to a fast 90 mph train approaching the crossing. As the farmer said, so much could have been done to avoid this.

 

[Cal]

Four deaths now according to the KC Star. 150 injured. Crossing looks like a POS

Honestly from this photo the road doesn't seem to be on too much of an incline, especially not the part's directly around the tracks.

 

[Amtrak George]

Have there been any studies out there about propensity for flipping with single-level vs. bi-level cars? This seems to happen a lot with the bi-level Amtrak cars. It just seems to me that these trains should not be tipping over when derailing on a completely straight section of track.

It does seem that the Bi Level versus Single level safety factor is something to study in detail when ordering new equipment for the western trains. The laws of physics would seem to indicate that single level cars would be less likely to topple over on their sides. Other advantages to replacing Superliners with single level equipment would be ease of complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act and flexibility of using any equipment anywhere on the system. I say all this reluctantly as I have loved traveling in Superliners, but now is the time to look at safety.

 

[Amtrak Apple]

Looking at the helicopter video again today, it's amazing to me how much force was actually stopped when the train hit the truck. Some of those railroad ties are angled away from the track, which I can't imagine is easy to do. The train basically hit the truck and almost immediately toppled over.

I'm also very glad to see the woman from the NTSB saying at the press conference how much she loves traveling on Amtrak and that it's one of the safest forms of travel. That's so nice to hear.

 

[Amtrak Apple]

It does seem that the Bi Level versus Single level safety factor is something to study in detail when ordering new equipment for the western trains. The laws of physics would seem to indicate that single level cars would be less likely to topple over on their sides. Other advantages to replacing Superliners with single level equipment would be ease of complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act and flexibility of using any equipment anywhere on the system. I say all this reluctantly as I have loved traveling in Superliners, but now is the time to look at safety.

I agree. I love the Superliners, but they do seem to be a bigger tipping risk.

 

[John819]

It does seem that the Bi Level versus Single level safety factor is something to study in detail when ordering new equipment for the western trains. The laws of physics would seem to indicate that single level cars would be less likely to topple over on their sides. Other advantages to replacing Superliners with single level equipment would be ease of complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act and flexibility of using any equipment anywhere on the system. I say all this reluctantly as I have loved traveling in Superliners, but now is the time to look at safety.

The center of gravity is higher on bi-level cars. If the COG is displaced beyond the track, the car will tip over.

 

[John Bobinyec]

This is from the latest announcement on the website,

Service Update:

As a result of the derailment, passengers who were traveling onboard Train 4, which departed L.A. on Sunday, June 26, will be reaccommodated as quickly as possible on other trains or buses as available. Additionally, Southwest Chief Train 3, scheduled to depart Chicago on Tuesday, June 28, will now originate at Kansas City (KCY).

You have to read Amtrak into this, but they ran 4 into KCY this morning (6/28) and it will turn to become 3 tonight. Not sure if they are bussing through pax between Chicago and Kansas City or putting them on 318/319. They just say alternate transportation will be provided.

I'm wondering why they didn't detour the remaining Chiefs through St. Louis instead of cancelling yesterday's 3 and then truncating the next 4 to turn at Kansas City as 3(28).
jb