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It is possible that what he meant to say is"terminate", not "stop",

However, the reason that it still remains relevant is that the Portland section because it is a section of the Builder, can continue to operate under the National System with national funding. If it was just a Portland - Spokane train it would cease to exist as soon as Washington and/or Oregon pulled the funding for it.
Thank you. "Terminate" is indeed what I meant, and that clears things up for me. So they might be considering chopping the EB to just Spokane east?
If Anderson were to chop up the EB, I highly doubt he would make it just Spokane east. More likely, he would try the same thing as with the SWC, with it probably being Spokane or Whitefish to Seattle/Portland and St. Paul or Grand Forks to Chicago that survives.
 
If Anderson were to chop up the EB, I highly doubt he would make it just Spokane east. More likely, he would try the same thing as with the SWC, with it probably being Spokane or Whitefish to Seattle/Portland and St. Paul or Grand Forks to Chicago that survives.
Do you highly doubt it, or do most people highly doubt it? I ask because if there isn't any concern that it gets truncated to Spokane, then what would be the relevance of Seattle/Portland to Spokane being less than 750 miles.
 
If Anderson were to chop up the EB, I highly doubt he would make it just Spokane east. More likely, he would try the same thing as with the SWC, with it probably being Spokane or Whitefish to Seattle/Portland and St. Paul or Grand Forks to Chicago that survives.
Do you highly doubt it, or do most people highly doubt it? I ask because if there isn't any concern that it gets truncated to Spokane, then what would be the relevance of Seattle/Portland to Spokane being less than 750 miles.
The fact that it could be canceled east of Spokane makes the fact that the route west of Spokane is less than 750 miles relavent. If Amtrak defines route as multiple train/bus services under the same name, they could run the trains from Seattle/Portland to Spokane and MSP to Chicago with a bus in between, despite both trains running under 750 miles.
 
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If Anderson were to chop up the EB, I highly doubt he would make it just Spokane east. More likely, he would try the same thing as with the SWC, with it probably being Spokane or Whitefish to Seattle/Portland and St. Paul or Grand Forks to Chicago that survives.
Do you highly doubt it, or do most people highly doubt it? I ask because if there isn't any concern that it gets truncated to Spokane, then what would be the relevance of Seattle/Portland to Spokane being less than 750 miles.
The fact that it could be canceled east of Spokane makes the fact that the route west of Spokane is less than 750 miles relavent. If Amtrak defines route as multiple train/bus services under the same name, they could run the trains from Seattle/Portland to Spokane and MSP to Chicago with a bus in between, despite both trains running under 750 miles.
Oh sorry! I was thinking Spokane west, but typed east. So I guess we agree but I typed the exact opposite.

Thank you. "Terminate" is indeed what I meant, and that clears things up for me. So they might be considering chopping the EB to just Spokane east?
 
When you look at the Southwest Chiefs route historically back in the 1952 Official Guide. You have four pairs of trains doing the Newton-Albuquerque route. Then there are two pairs on the southern transcon. But other parts of the route are seeing far more frequent service.

Chicago-Kansas City is seeing six or seven pairs of trains. Kansas City to different points in Kansas is also seeing that. South of Newton to Fort Worth sees three pairs a day. Once I finish mapping the Santa Fe passenger trains. I'll post a link to it so you can see what the route used to have.
Not just the Southwest Chief route...look (with envy), at almost any 1952 timetable in the Official Guide...and there were an incredible number of trains on mainline routes across the country...
 
It is interesting that AU has now moved along from "Adding fantasy trains" to "fantasies about chopping up every train".
If you're referring to my posts, I completely oppose chopping up the EB, but was just explaining how it could be done. However, I am surprised by the number of posters who have come out against LDs since the SWC news was made public.
 
When you look at the Southwest Chiefs route historically back in the 1952 Official Guide. You have four pairs of trains doing the Newton-Albuquerque route. Then there are two pairs on the southern transcon. But other parts of the route are seeing far more frequent service.

Chicago-Kansas City is seeing six or seven pairs of trains. Kansas City to different points in Kansas is also seeing that. South of Newton to Fort Worth sees three pairs a day. Once I finish mapping the Santa Fe passenger trains. I'll post a link to it so you can see what the route used to have.
Not just the Southwest Chief route...look (with envy), at almost any 1952 timetable in the Official Guide...and there were an incredible number of trains on mainline routes across the country...
I know I've been plotting all of the inter-city trains operating in the Official Guide of 1952. So far the railroads I have completed are the Atlantic Coastline, Seaboard Airline, Southern Railway, and most of the A section. I'm still working on the Santa Fe who had 90 something timetables in their section. I'm in the 70s currently. After that it'll be the Baltimore and Ohio coming up next and some eastern roads.
 
When you look at the Southwest Chiefs route historically back in the 1952 Official Guide. You have four pairs of trains doing the Newton-Albuquerque route. Then there are two pairs on the southern transcon. But other parts of the route are seeing far more frequent service.

Chicago-Kansas City is seeing six or seven pairs of trains. Kansas City to different points in Kansas is also seeing that. South of Newton to Fort Worth sees three pairs a day. Once I finish mapping the Santa Fe passenger trains. I'll post a link to it so you can see what the route used to have.
Not just the Southwest Chief route...look (with envy), at almost any 1952 timetable in the Official Guide...and there were an incredible number of trains on mainline routes across the country...
I know I've been plotting all of the inter-city trains operating in the Official Guide of 1952. So far the railroads I have completed are the Atlantic Coastline, Seaboard Airline, Southern Railway, and most of the A section. I'm still working on the Santa Fe who had 90 something timetables in their section. I'm in the 70s currently. After that it'll be the Baltimore and Ohio coming up next and some eastern roads.
By 1952, many of those "higher numbered" timetables were for "freight service only", but I'd gladly like to "turn back the clock"
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When you look at the Southwest Chiefs route historically back in the 1952 Official Guide. You have four pairs of trains doing the Newton-Albuquerque route. Then there are two pairs on the southern transcon. But other parts of the route are seeing far more frequent service.

Chicago-Kansas City is seeing six or seven pairs of trains. Kansas City to different points in Kansas is also seeing that. South of Newton to Fort Worth sees three pairs a day. Once I finish mapping the Santa Fe passenger trains. I'll post a link to it so you can see what the route used to have.
Not just the Southwest Chief route...look (with envy), at almost any 1952 timetable in the Official Guide...and there were an incredible number of trains on mainline routes across the country...
I know I've been plotting all of the inter-city trains operating in the Official Guide of 1952. So far the railroads I have completed are the Atlantic Coastline, Seaboard Airline, Southern Railway, and most of the A section. I'm still working on the Santa Fe who had 90 something timetables in their section. I'm in the 70s currently. After that it'll be the Baltimore and Ohio coming up next and some eastern roads.
By 1952, many of those "higher numbered" timetables were for "freight service only", but I'd gladly like to "turn back the clock"
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Surpringly there were a lot of mixed trains. The Texas chief was table 70. I'll send you a link to it when it's done.
 
The only economic blow to be inflicted should all LD routes be discontinued will be to those whose investments and livelihoods are tied to the Private Car excursion industry. Otherwise, those who ride trains for "experiential" reasons, which of course means a lot of folk who participate at this and other passenger rail discussion sites, will have lost the means to pursue a pastime.

Amtrak employees will be affected, but not deprived of livelihood. Specific legislation, PRIAA 2015 provides no F&B employee will be "on the street". If other employees are adversely affected, Appendix C-2, now part of collectively bargained Agreements, provides for payments. If a displaced employee needs to relocate in.order to exercise seniority, then relocation expenses under New York Dock will apply.

There is no community on the Amtrak system inaccessible by highway; same of course cannot be said of Alaska, Canada, Russia, China, and of course others where rail represents the only way in or out. There are of course some folk who ride the LD trains for other than "experiential" reasons. There are the "can't drives", and a few who cannot fly account medical reasons. But the arguments of "I don't like flying or driving" simply do not justify $300M (Amtrak likes to say $700M) of taxpayer funds expended as well as the interference such trains cause to freight operations of investor owned railroads.

Being in the industry on A-Day, I assure you the washroom walls heard the intent was to have the LD trains gone by, say, 1976. That incidentally was the date that roads choosing not to join Amtrak could have petitioned regulatory authorities to discontinue their services. The 1979 Carter Cuts were the first step in an orderly discontinuance of the trains, as no end point having service lost such.

So I have no idea to what extent the apparent Anderson initiative to "whack 'em all" will be successful. I think he is of thought that funding for "the stuff that counts" i.e. reequipping, track and signaling upgrades, the Gateway project (to the extent such is REALLY an Amtrak project), creating the "Safety Culture" he fostered during his airline years, and seeking other economies and efficiencies about the System. As others have noted, Amtrak is a passenger transportation provider. Even if the need for funding to move trains over the road is reduced, the needs of infrastructure will never be satisfied. I'm certain that Anderson is of thought that if he shows an economic and efficient passenger railroad, the record levels of funding will continue.
 
What it will probably take to save the SWC is for the affected states to pony up more money to pay for the required work and to draft more comprehensive long term plans to satisfy Anderson’s demands. Anderson would probably continue the train if Amtrak had less skin in the game and received more state support and if there was a sustainable path to solving the problem. Whether the states should have to is another discussion but thats what it comes down to.
 
Honestly with Anderson/Gardner reniging on this agreement I wouldn't be surprised if companies like Herzog, Patriot Rail, and other companies in the space start attempting to win over state supported routes from Amtrak.

Let's face it if I'm Washington State, California, Illinois, Missouri, or Indiana I would be looking actively for other options. As what's to say Anderson/Gardner who are happily operating a train today but decide in a month down the line "you know that million you pay us to run the train. That numbers changed five million please." And the scary thing is the price of the train might not go up they just want the money to sink into the messed up NEC.

The thing is they've proved they don't care about stated agreements. And there other companies who I'm sure would happily take over the business. California, Oregon, Washington, and North Carolina being likely the most lucrative for one of those companies. Each one owns their own fleet of cars, and has agreements with the class ones. Lastly they benefit from Amtrak not owning the stations so they can't do the crap they are doing with Metra and Iowa Pacific.
 
While we have seen Amtrak revenue rise, their subsidies rise, and their losses diminish; the response has been to cut back on amenities and service. If the SWC line is discontinued as intended; this might be the straw that broke the camels back for Anderson. The scary thing appears to be that Anderson is given free reign to do whatever he wishes without oversight by congress. If this is a correct assumption, then expect Anderson to change the name to the Regional Railroad Passenger Corporation. The man doesn't understand why Amtrak was created in the first place.
 
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What it will probably take to save the SWC is for the affected states to pony up more money to pay for the required work and to draft more comprehensive long term plans to satisfy Anderson’s demands. Anderson would probably continue the train if Amtrak had less skin in the game and received more state support and if there was a sustainable path to solving the problem. Whether the states should have to is another discussion but thats what it comes down to.
The issue is that Anderson already abandoned several grants and deals with the states, and lost a lot of credibility in the process. So to say that he (and Amtrak) want even more money to save a route that shouldn't have needed saving in the first place, probably won't seem particularly authentic or appealing.
 
What it will probably take to save the SWC is for the affected states to pony up more money to pay for the required work and to draft more comprehensive long term plans to satisfy Anderson’s demands. Anderson would probably continue the train if Amtrak had less skin in the game and received more state support and if there was a sustainable path to solving the problem. Whether the states should have to is another discussion but thats what it comes down to.
The issue is that Anderson already abandoned several grants and deals with the states, and lost a lot of credibility in the process. So to say that he (and Amtrak) want even more money to save a route that shouldn't have needed saving in the first place, probably won't seem particularly authentic or appealing.
That is only partly true. While I categorically disagree with Anderson's approach we should be accurate about the facts of the situation. The facts AFAIK are:

1. The financial plan for continuing service is incomplete, with various parties pointing fingers at each other as to who is/should be responsible.

2. Amtrak failing to take responsibility for continuing service is not something that started with Anderson. It started with Boardman as we descended into this piecemeal attempts to fix this segment or that segment based on jerry-rigged plans for funding through a mix of uncertain TIGER grants, Amtrak, BNSF and small contributions from various other interested parties.

3. What Anderson changed AFAICT is that he has refused to continue this current jerryrigged arrangement and replace it with a more complete plan and commitments. His method is to withdraw from the last such arrangement, which IMHO is not very gentlemanly in that it breaks a gentleman's agreement.

4. I think it is also true that what he is looking for, he cannot get because of the nature of the funding process for all government agencies. Indeed if someone asked Anderson for a funding commitment for all of Gateway over 12 years, he could not produce one either. So he is being a bit disingenuous.

5. This what raises questions about his true intentions regarding the LD network. Again there, he may be deliberately trying to get the Congresspeople upset, so that they'd stop pussyfooting around, get off their butts and make a solid commitment to the LD network. Right now Congressional endorsement for the LD network is lukewarm at best what with their inability to fund even a small gap filling on the Gulf Coast.

Given all this, my guess is that irrespective of what happens to the SWC or Anderson, we may have come to a point that Amtrak will not continue as is for too much longer.

I suspect that Anderson is OK with making a Hail Mary pass on this. If it succeeds the future of Amtrak will become clearer. If he fails he will quit and let things be. We will just a get a proper even more incompetent Trump appointee. All in all things are not looking good no matter what happens.

The cogent thing for us to do at this point is to get the Congress people all aligned to recommit to the national network and legislate such. The rest has to then follow in terms of targeted funding for this (and possibly other) endangered routes. RPA has started this effort and it is moving along. Will it succeed or not only time will tell. Attempts to get Anderson fired by itself is unlikely to create a good solution to this problem, irrespective of whether it succeeds or not.

BTW, the Rail Runner PTC issue is the current iceberg that presents the greatest danger in a statutory sense. Anderson can huff and puff all he wants, but there is no statutory requirement for Amtrak to stop operating on the non-PTC sections between Dodge and Lamy, since those are all Exempted or exemptable, and it is hard to make an argument that things that have operated fine will suddenly stop doing so. Only the section between Lamy and Dailies becomes statutorily inoperable unless Rail Runner reduces its level of service on weekdays leaving room for the SWC, which at present they do not plan to. They plan to reduce just enough to be able to ask the FRA for an exemption. And all this business about using ATS etc. etc. is all possible only if Congress passes a law exempting that segment. The current PTC law is pretty water-tight giving no authority to the FRA to make exceptions, which FRA has pointed out to the Governor of NM in a letter a couple of weeks back. So question becomes, who is going to bell the NM cat?
 
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The scary thing appears to be that Anderson is given free reign to do whatever he wishes without oversight by congress.
He and the board can indeed do what they whatever they wish without oversight be congress, so as long as Amtrak meets established statutes and policies. That's nothing new.
 
What I think will sign his pink slip is if he band New Jersey Transit from the corridor due to PTC concerns.
He won't get an opportunity to do so since NJT and FRA have come to the conclusion that NJT will get a legal extension based on work that will be completed by December. NJT will meet the statutory requirements for getting an extension. Anderson has said that he will not run service that would be illegal to run under current law.

The fear before March was that NJT will not have enough locomotives and cab cars equipped to operate under ACSES to maintain service to Penn Station. After NJT's summer of pain with massive schedule disruption that is ongoing, it is now almost certain that NJT will have 100% hardware installation, as required for gaining an extension. That together with completion of cross-testing of ASES and ACSES, which is reportedly progressing well, will mean that NJT will be capable of operating on the NEC with full ACSES operational. Hence this whole issue becomes moot.
 
But seriously, ending at Dodge City? What a bizarre location to end, especially if the train maintains its current schedule to and from there...
 
Seeing the SWC with three sleepers and five coaches on the Flagstaff and La Platta railcams, is that normal?
I don't know what the seasonal consist is, now...could be some group movement? Scouts?

But then again, whenever any train is "on the block", that in of itself, generates extra "ride-it-while-you-can" business....
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