Southwest Chief News & Future Operations

[Willbridge]

Where were the urban planners when the Pepsi Center was built (and now other buildings) that obliterated the direct run through track the Rio Grande and Santa Fe used to head south from the station. The convoluted move they would now have to use adds time and increases probability of freight train interference. It could have been incorporated so easily into the Center’s construction and perhaps provided rail access to events there.

When the Santa Fe was running LaJunta to Denver it took about 4 hours for the 185 miles. Using the SWC schedule for connections it might be possible for a crew and engines to make a same day turn from LaJunta to Denver but probably need another set of equipment with the cleaning required. This is certainly a viable project. The hurdle will be UP/BNSF concurrence but with the decline in Powder River coal perhaps it could be done. While each railroad has mostly single track they operate it jointly so it is effectively a double track railroad to Pueblo. Pueblo union station is still in use but not sure about Colorado Springs. No doubt changes for ADA compliance will be needed.

I don't know if this was mentioned much earlier in this thread but I'm wondering if this would be way to expedite service for now on the south portion of the Front Range to include Pueblo to Trinidad (with perhaps a stop at Walsenburg) by, not with a stub, but by actually routing the SW Chief from La Junta to Pueblo and then south. Would Amtrak agree to that?

Then whenever, or if, Colorado agreed to front range service, their southern-most point could be Pueblo.

As an occasional passenger on the SW Chief, and a fan of long distance travel, I certainly would have no objection to lengthening the route and my time on the train.

The route via Walsenburg (former C&S line) is a possibility that has been discussed. Walsenburg is a tourist gateway. It would add 50 to 65 minutes to the runtime, depending on whether an Amshack station is built on the line or whether they would back into the restored Pueblo Union Depot. It would require a PRIIA siding or two in order to run contra the flow of freight traffic. It would add a mountain panorama. BNSF could then choose to abandon the former SFe main line south of the armored division ramps to Trinidad. It would shorten the bus connection for Colorado Springs and Denver areas, but the DEN to LAX Thruway bus would have to leave Denver even earlier than at present. The extra runtime might blow-up the equipment cycle at LA for Trains 3/4; that actually is the biggest potential cost. On the other hand, having myself waited around LAUPT for a delayed departure, the extra trainset should assure that Train 4 would get out of the terminal on time. Cutting off or adding a through-car section would also add time.

 

[Willbridge]

If they are able to shoehorn a platform adjacent to the LRT Union Station, that would mitigate most of the convoluted move thing. But truth be told, I have never seen anyone give that a serious consideration AFAICT.

Well, as a matter of fact it has been considered several times during the three decades that redevelopment of DUS and the Central Platte Valley was in the works. Back in the administration of Mayor Federico Peña one of the City's alternatives was to move the whole station out to alongside the Consolidated Main Line! Then they came up with just moving the station tracks and using shuttles between the building and the platforms (a la Sacramento). When we were forced to move the LRT platforms out to the CML (1,001 feet from the airport trains on Track One) we were told that we could have two outbound trains loading side by side (for Lines C/E and W). Then when detailed engineering was done, there was only room for the storage track that is there now.
On a couple of occasions when project officials were asked, the answer was that there "might be" room for a CML platform for Front Range trains, but there has not been detailed engineering. There are curves and elevation issues there. And, if I were to list all the "might be" positive answers that did not pan out, it would make a book.

The new study will be an opportunity to get more specific. Another "might be" answer from DUS project engineers was whether a P-curve would fit into Prospect Junction. It might clip off the corner of a BNSF garage. And then to simplify train movements there's the issue of Diesel power under the trainshed. All of that will have to be considered, too. A station at I-25 & Broadway / Alameda might be needed!

 

[Willbridge]

Where were the urban planners when the Pepsi Center was built (and now other buildings) that obliterated the direct run through track the Rio Grande and Santa Fe used to head south from the station. The convoluted move they would now have to use adds time and increases probability of freight train interference. It could have been incorporated so easily into the Center’s construction and perhaps provided rail access to events there.

When the Santa Fe was running LaJunta to Denver it took about 4 hours for the 185 miles. Using the SWC schedule for connections it might be possible for a crew and engines to make a same day turn from LaJunta to Denver but probably need another set of equipment with the cleaning required. This is certainly a viable project. The hurdle will be UP/BNSF concurrence but with the decline in Powder River coal perhaps it could be done. While each railroad has mostly single track they operate it jointly so it is effectively a double track railroad to Pueblo. Pueblo union station is still in use but not sure about Colorado Springs. No doubt changes for ADA compliance will be needed.

Originally the urban planners were part of the problem. As Wilbur "Sonny" Conder said in 1973, "the only thing worse than a private developer is a public developer."

We don't have room for all the details, but what we have now took almost exactly thirty years to develop. On the front end, in the administration of Mayor Federico Peña, ALL - repeat ALL - tracks were to be stripped from DUS; the central portion of the historic building was to become the atrium of twin high-rise towers. Various alternative sites were tossed into the pot whenever anyone questioned this. The only one that was feasible from a technical standpoint would have prevented construction of Coors Field. From a marketing standpoint it would have been a disaster. (Keep in mind that it was considered to be a big joke that Denver would ever build rail transit.)

It was never clear as to who was doing what, but it was clear that the City''s objective was to get somebody else to pay for relocating Amtrak and constructing "roadsnbridgez" into the cleared Central Platte Valley. That somebody else, the planners, engineers, and politicians said, might be Amtrak or the Regional Transportation District. When a journalist finally figured this out, the upset promoters went through Washington, DC to stop Amtrak spokesperson Art Lloyd from saying that Amtrak did not have a budget for getting out of DUS.

What is there now is a compromise, with a convoluted funding plan that gave the City and developers a majority of the say (see "Dolllars Flow" PDF from 2009). But, Amtrak and the RTD were able to find allies in ColoRail, NARP, private car owners, tourist and restaurant businesses. A few far-sighted individuals like micro-brewer John Hickenlooper and longtime local politico Dennis Gallagher were able to visualize a revitalized station as the hub of the Rocky Mountain Empire. Had the developers had their way at a dozen turns of events, Denver could have become another Richmond or Saskatoon.

 

[Willbridge]

Past experience shows that in general only the most minimal change is likely, if anything happens at all.

I suspect the Front Range train, if and when it happens, will be a Colorado funded train with possibly some through cars from the SWC. I also do not expect the section from SWC to get to Denver for quite a while yet. What could happen in short order is a connection to Pueblo from the SWC. Beyond that it starts getting more and more spectacularly expensive the further you try to go.

Yes, although the Pueblo-Colorado Springs segment is better than the lines north of there.

From Colorado Springs north:
-- Station in private hands(see attached station photo by George Hinds)
-- Single track on the slowest part of the line, due to abandonment of the SFe track.
-- Distance between paired main lines varies, but wide separations make x-overs impractical.
-- "Fleeting" of freights to get through bottlenecks.
-- Congestion in Denver.
-- DUS access.
-- Add'l. trainset due to otherwise tight layover in Denver.

Solving all these issues would be about as much work as setting up a Front Range corridor service that would have a much wider appeal. It might result in a transfer in Pueblo. In the meantime, since May 1, 1971 there has been no DEN<>LAJ bus connection to Train 4 or from Train 3. DEN<>KCY remains a strong potential travel link, even though the last time Amtrak publicly looked into it was 1975.

 

[Palmetto]

I'll just throw this in here, and we can move on. It would be interesting to restore the Pioneer in tandem with a Caprock Express down to Texas. [I know: when Hell freezes over.]

 

[jis]

I'll just throw this in here, and we can move on. It would be interesting to restore the Pioneer in tandem with a Caprock Express down to Texas. [I know: when Hell freezes over.]

The restored Pioneer that is being seriously considered by some at present is just the original Salt Lake City - Portland - Seattle portion. Extension to Denver is an entirely different kettle of fish requiring yet another pot of money for the Wyoming routing. So there is little chance of connecting the Front Range effort with the Pioneer effort at the present time.

Some are talking about a combination of Pioneer and Desert Wind loop train LAX - LAS - SLC - BOI - PDX - SEA, but I think chances of that are slim. Just manageing to get the SLC - SEA Pioneer back will take a huge effort and would be a big win in and of itself.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

I see no greater potential for a new train than in the KC - DEN route. What would bringing back the Colorado Eagle entail?

 

[jis]

I see no greater potential for a new train than in the KC - DEN route. What would bringing back the Colorado Eagle entail?

Yup. The difference though will be that this train would run on what used to be Santa Fe to La Junta (as part of the Southwest Chief) and then onto Pueblo rather than on MoPac, which is what the original Colorado Eagle ran on.

 

[Seaboard92]

I noted an interesting point in there that Amtrak seams to have forgotten. Private rail car owners were loyal allies when it came to saving DUS as a train station. And we are a loyal, independent, and vocal outlet for Amtrak that can communicate with congress and the general public. But it looks like the current administration doesn’t care about their allies in the PV community in hopes they can ally to the millennials who have a passing interest at best. I would rather stay with a loyal proven ally instead of doing what they’ve done. Which is make the PV community luke warm at the best to a bitter enemy at the worst.

 

[TiBike]

If Millennials only have a passing interest, Amtrak might as well shut down now. The supply of new Boomers dried up a while ago.

 

[jis]

If Millennials only have a passing interest, Amtrak might as well shut down now. The supply of new Boomers dried up a while ago.

And not to forget Generation Z, the oldest of which are 22 years old this year as per Pew Research's categorization of generations.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/17/where-millennials-end-and-generation-z-begins/

So when we talk about students riding trains, we are really talking of Gen Z and not Millenials any more. Gen Z is actually already a larger cohort than the Millenials, but they are yet to get to the point where they have money to spend in a big way. I guess Amtrak and others who keep going on and on about Millenials have not caught onto this reality of what is going to become really important in another 5-10 years.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak management has never listened to a Millennial, apparently. Madi Butler can tell them what Millenials are looking for, but Stephen Gardner is not listening and is spewing BS instead.

Millenials, now in their 30s, want quality high-nutrition food. Allergy friendly. Paleo options. The first thing they ask about when I mention trains is "Does it have a dining car?". Amtrak has been straight up chasing away Millenials with its ******* moves. Amtrak claims to be courting Millenials but they are flat out lying -- millenials such as Graham Rapier are the ones writing savage reviews of Amtrak dumbassery.

Millenials are being used as an excuse by a 50-something with a Baby Boomer "cars, junk food, and plastic" agenda. I could not say for sure who this 50-something is, but the betting pool points to Gardner. IMO Gardner should be sacked -- he lied to Congress, to the newspapers, and to his bosses regarding both costs (where he was caught red handed by AAPRCO, thank you) and Millenials, so firing for cause is suitable and he should lose his pension. Deliberate lying to Congress and the public should be a firing offense.

I can't prove it, but I think Gardner is trying to make a fool of Anderson. He has bamboozled Anderson into defending Amtrak's indefensible cost allocations to Congress (allocations which Moorman, Boardman, and their predecessors openly admitted were bogus). Anderson is looking like a fool, but I do not think he came up with the ******* ideas himself. They all have Gardner's fingerprints on them.

 

[Willbridge]

The restored Pioneer that is being seriously considered by some at present is just the original Salt Lake City - Portland - Seattle portion. Extension to Denver is an entirely different kettle of fish requiring yet another pot of money for the Wyoming routing. So there is little chance of connecting the Front Range effort with the Pioneer effort at the present time.

Some are talking about a combination of Pioneer and Desert Wind loop train LAX - LAS - SLC - BOI - PDX - SEA, but I think chances of that are slim. Just managing to get the SLC - SEA Pioneer back will take a huge effort and would be a big win in and of itself.

It was interesting to see the remarks about the loop train. It was alternative 5.1 in the draft schedules I supplied for the "study" in 2009. I wasn't selling a particular alternative, the drafts were prepared to answer questions about all the likely alternatives, but that one was unique. The drafts did not include DEN - Texas or DEN-KCY as that was out of the study area, but I recall discussions of it in the '90's. At that time, the Joint Line was a chaotic mess of coal trains and helper movements.

Someday it will be morning in America and someone in DC will jump out of bed and shout in a bipartisan way that the decent, hard-working average Americans deserve to live in UNITED States and that therefore something that looks a lot like the Pioneer -- but has a cool and less politically obsolete name -- should be running on Mr. E. H. Harriman's railroad.

Note that the draft schedules were based on former stations. As I've written before, there are several here that should be replaced in an actual operation.

 

[Willbridge]

Yup. The difference though will be that this train would run on what used to be Santa Fe to La Junta (as part of the Southwest Chief) and then onto Pueblo rather than on MoPac, which is what the original Colorado Eagle ran on.

When my 96-year old father was a kid, he could choose through service DEN<>KCY on the UP (KP), CB&Q, RI, MoPac/D&RGW, and SFe. The Santa Fe had a through CHI<>KCY<>DEN train until the streamliner era. Kansas City was an important place, which is why the Denver office is a branch of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City and the KCY Union Station was larger than Denver's. The two cities still have lots of business, school and family links. They compete for spheres of influence in Western Kansas.

In 1975 the USDOT recommended extending the National Limited from Kansas City to Denver. Luckily that did not happen, as the Penn Central portion fell apart and coal train chaos paralyzed the Joint Line into Denver. But, assuming that they had some sort of data, it was not a bad idea.