Southwest Chief News & Future Operations

[cpotisch]

It's important to remember that Amtrak's cost accounting is essentially fraudulent. I've had a lot of experience trying to decode "creative accounting", and there's been enough information released over the years to get a decent sense (ballpark) of the actual avoidable cost structure. Recently the amount of data released has been reduced sufficiently that I haven't been able to back-calculate anything since Anderson's lackeys removed the crucial data from the monthly reports.

But anyway: the long-distance trains as a group are profitable. With the exception of the Sunset Limited, I am now quite sure every last one of them provides incremental profits to Amtrak; that is, incremental revenues including connecting revenue is greater than avoidable costs.

And the Sunset Limited would very probably improve its net performance substantially if it could be made a daily train.

But of course management is way too shortsighted to recognize that. Their logic seems to be that if a route is struggling, why spend money trying to revitalize it or make it daily? Just let it die on its own.

 

[cpotisch]

I wonder just how the general ridership of Amtrak feels about all of this, as compared to advocate's...meaning organization's like RPA et al, as well as forum's like AU?

That may be the ultimate measure of whether Anderson remains in office, or not. While it is all very much in our thoughts, how many 'ordinary' Amtrak passenger's know about what is going on, or how much they are really concerned about it?

It appeared this topic took on added life while I was overseas during the past two weeks. Lest we forget, WLAN mobile data "over there" costs "big time" - try $25 for 100 megs. That's enough to make one "think twice" before indulging.

Not to nit-pick, but there is a little thing called WiFi...

 

[bretton88]

It appeared this topic took on added life while I was overseas during the past two weeks. Lest we forget, WLAN mobile data "over there" costs "big time" - try $25 for 100 megs. That's enough to make one "think twice" before indulging.

Sounds like you took a locked US phone to a foreign country and paid a massive middleman fee to a US carrier with pricing plans from the 1990's. The vast majority of industrialized democracies have cheaper mobile plans than the US.

All told, away from the hobby community, the passenger using rail travel today, simply could care less about what happens to the Chief, or for that matter, the others within that particular Tribe.

What are you basing this upon? The people I met on my most recent Southwest Chief trip (earlier this month) seemed extremely concerned about the future of the route. If there was anything they could not care less about it was some indifferent armchair quarterback trying to speak on their behalf.

Probably on the fact that the travel share on Amtrak LD trains is little more than a rounding error above zero. However these small towns on the route have much more to lose and so they mobilize. The people that are being loud about it are indeed a small, but vocal, minority. The old proverb goes: the squeaky wheel gets the grease. That's what's happening here.

 

[keelhauled]

I've lived near the routes of the Vermonter or Adirondack all my life. It's nice to have a daily passenger train, looks nice when it comes through town, but nine times out of ten if I'm going anywhere in the northeast the single daily schedule just doesn't work. It kills an entire day just to get wherever I'm going, another to get back, and I have to pay for two nights in a hotel. Almost always I drive/bus to Boston, occasionally Albany or Springfield, and take a train that fits my schedule better from there. If I want to see a concert or something on New York, it's a three day endeavor via the Vermonter, vs barely 24 hours leaving from Boston in the afternoon and returning overnight. Once a day trains are an anachronism left over from the days when the railroad was the primary route of commerce for small towns, but like it or not that role has been completely supplanted by highways for the vast majority of the country. Can't say I think much for how Amtrak is going about it, but they aren't wrong in looking at the network and deciding that it's an inefficient way to move insignificant numbers of people.

 

[jis]

Bringing this back to the Southwest Chief, there is an informative article in Trains Mag...

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/27-amtrak-says-it-will-not-run-trains-on-routes-without-ptc

I am not sure that that list of trains was provided by Amtrak. It was put together by Trains Mag, but yeah, if the rule is that no trains shall be run over FRA exempt segments, then the list would look something like that.

Note that this has been posted in a thread of its own too, but it has direct relevance to Southwest Chief hence I thought it may be prudent to post it here too. If mods think that is in[appropriate, they can feel free to can this post.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Once a day trains are an anachronism left over from the days when the railroad was the primary route of commerce for small towns, but like it or not that role has been completely supplanted by highways for the vast majority of the country.

When the railroad was the primary route of passenger transit (it still is a primary route for freight) there were way more than 1 train a day in most places. The one train a day is left over from a time when our government thought passenger trains should be reduced to 1 train a day and then cancelled altogether. Despite terrible call times, prices that are the same as airlines, and inconsistent customer service and condition of equipment, more and more people are taking the train.

The highways are not public transit, they are a publicly funded infrastructure that serves private automobiles and for-profit businesses (commercial trucking).

The preferred public transit in this country is Air... which makes sense for longer routes, and doesn't make sense for shorter hops.

 

[fredmcain]

Bringing this back to the Southwest Chief, there is an informative article in Trains Mag...

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/27-amtrak-says-it-will-not-run-trains-on-routes-without-ptc

I am not sure that that list of trains was provided by Amtrak. It was put together by Trains Mag, but yeah, if the rule is that no trains shall be run over FRA exempt segments, then the list would look something like that.

Note that this has been posted in a thread of its own too, but it has direct relevance to Southwest Chief hence I thought it may be prudent to post it here too. If mods think that is in[appropriate, they can feel free to can this post.

Ya know, JIS, I don’t pretend to know how all this is going to turn out – I don’t think any of us do – but I can say this: The Amtrak board has now succeeded in making even more political enemies and that quite possibly includes me.

Let me make this very clear: As an American I do not and will not support an Amtrak “system” that consists of a few widely-scattered corridors in diverse places. And why should I? I will NEVER use them without the rest of the LD system. I mean, it’s not even an option for me. If I can’t get to California on the train, why would I ride on a California corridor train?

The senate has just passed a huge Amtrak appropriation – possibly the biggest in Amtrak’s history. Although the House has yet to pass it, if we assume that they do, what the heck is Amtrak going to do with all that money if most of the system is gone? It makes no sense.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Congress should completely “zero out” all federal funding if Amtrak goes ahead with this lame-brain scheme. They should get no more federal dollars, nichts, zip, nada!

As I have tried to suggest a couple of times on this group, the time may have finally come to find some other way to save these services – without Amtrak. I think I could still support an Amtrak “system” consisting of diverse corridors if they were all interconnected by a national system – run by someone else. That, in a way, was how the old Class 1 passenger trains operated. They at least made an effort to make connections.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN

 

[jis]

Apparently we are all getting excited by a piece of possibly fake news [emoji57]

 

[cpotisch]

Apparently we are all getting excited by a piece of possibly fake news [emoji57]

Didn't this come straight from Gardner? How is it not reasonable or logical to be concerned about it?

 

[jis]

It was reported by someone that he said so. Who knows what he said and what happened in transmission. Amtrak subsequently stated their official position, which is unchanged from the testimony given to Congress.

One possibility is that Gardner has gone rogue, in which case Anderson will have to deal with it.

The other possibility is that the reporter interpreted what was said in a particular way, possibly misled by ambiguous language used by the speaker. There are many possible explanations I am sure.

But the official position is unchanged and we await the results of SMS analysis. Until then I suppose all options also remain on the table.

It is possible that the so called SMS analysis is a bureaucratic smoke screen. But we should know soon enough.

We should remain very concerned and keep the fire lit under them. But that does not mean we should lose our heads and go off the rails ourselves.

 

[fredmcain]

It was reported by someone that he said so. Who knows what he said and what happened in transmission. Amtrak subsequently stated their official position, which is unchanged from the testimony given to Congress.

One possibility is that Gardner has gone rogue, in which case Anderson will have to deal with it.

The other possibility is that the reporter interpreted what was said in a particular way, possibly misled by ambiguous language used by the speaker. There are many possible explanations I am sure.

But the official position is unchanged and we await the results of SMS analysis. Until then I suppose all options also remain on the table.

It is possible that the so called SMS analysis is a bureaucratic smoke screen. But we should know soon enough.

We should remain very concerned and keep the fire lit under them. But that does not mean we should lose our heads and go off the rails ourselves.

JIS,

Thanks for your insight and level-headedness. Not to pat you on the back or anything but it seems to me like you know what you're talking about. It sounds to me like you know something about the transportation industry,

Regards,

FMC

 

[mlanoue]

Here is the most recent PowerPoint show from Amtrak about the SWC. It contains all the alternatives they have considered--most of which I think we would consider decent ideas as additional routes, but ultimately they love that bus bridge. Sounds like they are willing to work with Congress (or at least they acknowledge that they kind of have to), but really, really, really hope they don't get the funding to install PTC on the Raton section.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fdvs5Ne8SQobfH5LX3Xz1Tf_lx-MUGXr/view?usp=sharing

 

[jis]

They also want Congress (and the rail advocacy community) to eat their own posturing and say it is OK to run without PTC where FRA says it is OK to do so. This is a rear end covering exercise.

 

[GBNorman]

It appeared this topic took on added life while I was overseas during the past two weeks. Lest we forget, WLAN mobile data "over there" costs "big time" - try $25 for 100 megs. That's enough to make one "think twice" before indulging.

Sounds like you took a locked US phone to a foreign country and paid a massive middleman fee to a US carrier with pricing plans from the 1990's. The vast majority of industrialized democracies have cheaper mobile plans than the US.

I signed up for a Verizon International plan good for Austria that cost $45. While there was ample allowance for voice and text for both over there and back to the States, data was 100megs within the plan, and $25 for each 100megs or fraction thereof in excess.

WLAN (what Wi-Fi is called over there) was "problematic" on both OBB and the private Westbahn. I like to know where I am, and I prefer to walk - even in cities like Graz, Linz, and Innsbruck that were all new to me (I confess, I did use a taxicab back to the Hbf in Linz). All told it seemed like every other minute, it was time for "free text from Verizon" which meant $25 more into the kitty.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

All told, away from the hobby community, the passenger using rail travel today, simply could care less about what happens to the Chief, or for that matter, the others within that particular Tribe.

What are you basing this upon? The people I met on my most recent Southwest Chief trip (earlier this month) seemed extremely concerned about the future of the route. If there was anything they could not care less about it was some indifferent armchair quarterback trying to speak on their behalf.

Of course I respect Advocate's thought. I'm sure the folks he talked with aboard the Chief were concerned about its possible discontinuance. Were the folks those just going from "Ehh to Bee" and the train was simply there, or were perhaps were they more likely "enthusiasts"? Regardless, one must accept that any such "universe" was a "microcosm".

 

[jis]

GBN, when I travel abroad, I just bite the bullet and take the $10per day of actual use roaming extension from AT&T which basically gives me unlimited everything (including 4G/LTE data) in any of the vast list of countries and also country to country and within country unlimited calling and texting among all those countries. Yeah if I am traveling for more than a week or ten days it starts getting expensive, but the convenience is well worth it for me.

The other alternatives is to simply get a local SIM, but that changes the telephone number, which is less convenient than using the US SIM if one can.

Anyway, I am now permanently signed up for AT&T's international per day roaming, and now I don;t even have to do anything special when I travel abroad. Just continue using my phone exactly as I would at home.

 

[jebr]

Yeah, typically Verizon's international roaming packages are more expensive than the competition. Unless you need access to your US number (or a US IP address for streaming and such) when abroad, it'd probably be cheaper to use a local service if your phone supports it.

Sprint and T-Mobile have free 2G data internationally. When I was in Canada on Sprint, the free 2G data was usable for basic surfing, maps, etc. Streaming would be a challenge, but it was enough to get things done until I reached a wi-fi spot or similar.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

If I am reading all the information about PTC and the Chief correctly (sorry, can't remember where with several threads going on this), then:

1. The bus bridge is about 10 hours long? If so, that is outrageous, especially for someone taking the whole route in a sleeper.

2. There is a loophole (qualifying for extension on PTC) that even NJ Transit is going to be qualified to get (and if they, being as muddle-headed as they are, can prepare and qualify for it in time, it should be a piece of cake for anybody else). If this is true, the eight trains that Trains magazine lists as in danger may not be in quite as much danger?

Have I read both those items correctly? Or, if not, please correct me so I can get all this straight in my head--thanks

.

 

[mlanoue]

I don’t think they plan to have sleepers on either of the train sections of the fresh and contemporary SWC. Just coaches and a lounge.

 

[jis]

If I am reading all the information about PTC and the Chief correctly (sorry, can't remember where with several threads going on this), then:

1. The bus bridge is about 10 hours long? If so, that is outrageous, especially for someone taking the whole route in a sleeper.

2. There is a loophole (qualifying for extension on PTC) that even NJ Transit is going to be qualified to get (and if they, being as muddle-headed as they are, can prepare and qualify for it in time, it should be a piece of cake for anybody else). If this is true, the eight trains that Trains magazine lists as in danger may not be in quite as much danger?

Have I read both those items correctly? Or, if not, please correct me so I can get all this straight in my head--thanks

.

On point 2, no you have not read it correctly. The route segments in question are FRA PTC Exempt, that is they do not require PTC and hence there currently is no plan to install PTC, barring a few exceptions which I mention below. So there is no question of getting extensions. To get an extension PTC hardware installation must be substantially completed, staff trained and a demonstration segment operated under PTC before December 31. That is clearly not going to be the case on segments that are PTC exempted and no PTC is getting installed there. The eight trains listed all travel over such segments. Trains that travel on segments where PTC is being installed and will get extensions are not listed, e.g. the Silver Service and Auto Train.

Amtrak's position was clarified by spokesman Magliari, and it has not changed from what was stated in the Congressional hearings, which was not an unqualified discontinuance of service. There are many things that have to happen before such. SWC is a specialc ase because in addition to PTC there is a huge infrastructure upgrade and maintenance issue for which Amtrak is doing some hard headed "negotiating" apparently to get guaranteed funding, instead of doing an year to year Kabuki dance around it. That is what makes the SWC issue more fraught than any of those others.

The exception is the segment San Louis Obispo - Gilroy where Caltrans has chosen to install PTC even though it is potentially an FRA Exempted segment.

I don’t think they plan to have sleepers on either of the train sections of the fresh and contemporary SWC. Just coaches and a lounge.

Maybe this is their way to find enough equipment for a sixth consist for the Empire Builder

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Okay--thanks, mlanoue and jis.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Of course I respect Advocate's thought. I'm sure the folks he talked with aboard the Chief were concerned about its possible discontinuance. Were the folks those just going from "Ehh to Bee" and the train was simply there, or were perhaps were they more likely "enthusiasts"? Regardless, one must accept that any such "universe" was a "microcosm".

It was a combination of motivations. Some folks were riding because they loved trains, some were riding because they hated flying, some were riding because they were unable or unwilling to drive, and others simply liked the shake things up once in a while. I didn't meet anyone who was happy about the idea of the Southwest Chief becoming a bus.

GBN, when I travel abroad, I just bite the bullet and take the $10per day of actual use roaming extension from AT&T which basically gives me unlimited everything (including 4G/LTE data) in any of the vast list of countries and also country to country and within country unlimited calling and texting among all those countries. Yeah if I am traveling for more than a week or ten days it starts getting expensive, but the convenience is well worth it for me. The other alternatives is to simply get a local SIM, but that changes the telephone number, which is less convenient than using the US SIM if one can. Anyway, I am now permanently signed up for AT&T's international per day roaming, and now I don;t even have to do anything special when I travel abroad. Just continue using my phone exactly as I would at home.

I pay $35 per month all-in for a domestic plan that includes unlimited international data and text at 2G speeds in a 100+ countries. Looking up schedules, finding addresses, and sending/receiving emails works fine on 2G. Around 99% of my trips are leisure activities but I'm not a social media attention seeker so it's rare that I need to move large amounts of data or communicate in real time.

Yeah, typically Verizon's international roaming packages are more expensive than the competition. Unless you need access to your US number (or a US IP address for streaming and such) when abroad, it'd probably be cheaper to use a local service if your phone supports it. Sprint and T-Mobile have free 2G data internationally. When I was in Canada on Sprint, the free 2G data was usable for basic surfing, maps, etc. Streaming would be a challenge, but it was enough to get things done until I reached a wi-fi spot or similar.

On my T-Mobile plan Canada and Mexico are treated like US domestic service. Best plan in the business but you need a phone with the most recently licensed bands included in the baseband transceiver chipset to get the most out of it. I really hope T-Mobile isn't allowed to merge with Sprint.

 

[jis]

Yeah. If I was not a moderator of half a dozen rowdy internet forums here and there, I could live with 2G too. But that is not the case.... yet. Maybe some day.

 

[frequentflyer]

Of course I respect Advocate's thought. I'm sure the folks he talked with aboard the Chief were concerned about its possible discontinuance. Were the folks those just going from "Ehh to Bee" and the train was simply there, or were perhaps were they more likely "enthusiasts"? Regardless, one must accept that any such "universe" was a "microcosm".

It was a combination of motivations. Some folks were riding because they loved trains, some were riding because they hated flying, some were riding because they were unable or unwilling to drive, and others simply liked the shake things up once in a while. I didn't meet anyone who was happy about the idea of the Southwest Chief becoming a bus.

GBN, when I travel abroad, I just bite the bullet and take the $10per day of actual use roaming extension from AT&T which basically gives me unlimited everything (including 4G/LTE data) in any of the vast list of countries and also country to country and within country unlimited calling and texting among all those countries. Yeah if I am traveling for more than a week or ten days it starts getting expensive, but the convenience is well worth it for me. The other alternatives is to simply get a local SIM, but that changes the telephone number, which is less convenient than using the US SIM if one can. Anyway, I am now permanently signed up for AT&T's international per day roaming, and now I don;t even have to do anything special when I travel abroad. Just continue using my phone exactly as I would at home.

I pay $35 per month all-in for a domestic plan that includes unlimited international data and text at 2G speeds in a 100+ countries. Looking up schedules, finding addresses, and sending/receiving emails works fine on 2G. Around 99% of my trips are leisure activities but I'm not a social media attention seeker so it's rare that I need to move large amounts of data or communicate in real time.

Yeah, typically Verizon's international roaming packages are more expensive than the competition. Unless you need access to your US number (or a US IP address for streaming and such) when abroad, it'd probably be cheaper to use a local service if your phone supports it. Sprint and T-Mobile have free 2G data internationally. When I was in Canada on Sprint, the free 2G data was usable for basic surfing, maps, etc. Streaming would be a challenge, but it was enough to get things done until I reached a wi-fi spot or similar.

On my T-Mobile plan Canada and Mexico are treated like US domestic service. Best plan in the business but you need a phone with the most recently licensed bands included in the baseband transceiver chipset to get the most out of it. I really hope T-Mobile isn't allowed to merge with Sprint.

It is why T Mobile is popular to military personnel, one can get stationed overseers and still call home as it was a regular call.............Well, it used to be that way.

 

[fredmcain]

O.K., group, anybody for a "bus bridge"? Anderson would tell us it'd be "safer" than operating a passenger train on a line with no PTC. No? O.K., how 'bout installing "PTC" on I-40? Has it occurred to anyone that there is a kind of double standard here with railroads vs highways?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/blown-tire-may-have-caused-horrific-new-mexico-bus-semi-crash-authorities-say/ar-BBMGYWS?ocid=spartandhp

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- A blown tire on a semitrailer may be to blame for a deadly head-on crash with a commercial passenger bus along Interstate 40 in New Mexico near the Arizona border, according to authorities. At least seven people were killed in the crash and many of the 49 passengers aboard the Greyhound bus were injured, although authorities couldn't immediately provide an exact count of how many were hurt or their conditions.

The truck driver is expected to recover, reports CBS Albuquerque affiliate KRQE-TV.

.....

New Mexico State Police said the semi was headed east on the freeway Thursday afternoon when one of its tires blew. They said that sent the rig, which was carrying produce, across the median into oncoming traffic, where it slammed into the Greyhound bus. It was heading to Phoenix from Albuquerque.

 

[frequentflyer]

Condolences to those who lost love ones.

A freak accident, the Greyhound bus driver did nothing wrong. He or she was not expecting a semi with a flat tire to veer across the median.

If this is a bad idea, so is the network of Thruway motorcoaches that Amtrak uses in California uses to connect to Amtrak trains.