Southwest Chief News & Future Operations

[railiner]

If the worst happens, and they do kill the SWC from Kansas to Albuquerque, another alternative would be to extend a St. Louis-Kansas City train to Omaha or Lincoln to connect with the CZ.

I like the idea of running the remnant of the SWC down to connect with (and replace) the Heartland Flyer. In addition, they could save more if instead of running that train via Ft. Madison, they instead just extended one of the Quincy trains on to Kansas City.

At the other end, it is always possible to connect from the CZ to a San Joaquin to reach LAX, on a daily basis, rather than rely only on the TE-SL, as an alternative...

1. How do you figure Amtrak will save money extending the Quincy train to KC? It would not be competitive time wise than the direct route taken now for KC.

They could eliminate the SWC, and instead extend a Quincy train...one less train, and most of the current route would still be served. Agreed, it would add some time, but not that much. And they could move the staff over to Quincy, and have a larger city, and with more trains, have a staffed station.

 

[jis]

I guess the State of Illinois will have to agree to that scheme of extending the Quincy train to KC now, wouldn't they?

Redirecting the rump of the SWC to Fort Worth would essentially b reestablishing the Lone Star or pre-Amtrak Texas Chief.

 

[AmtrakFlyer]

Speculation is great and provides us a interesting (frustrating with the current situation) debate here. As far as a new route taking the SWC place I just dont see it. Id be excited with a new DW as a consolation prize I just dont see it happening.

Unless Congress gets involved now Amtrak as a cohesive transportation system is toast. How many times has Anderson said or insinuated he doesnt see LDT as viable. He talked about a experimental train ala the Canadian but then again thats what the Coast Starlight was with the PPC, wine tastings, all refreshed superliners. He killed that as one of his first acts.

Andersons reassurance on the national network is no perminate changes until 2020? Thats only 18 months away! And doesnt mention possible temporary reductions such as the SWC senerio. How long as the eastern Sunset been temporarily discontinued?

We need to get congress involved ASAP and hope some resemblance of the national system lives to fight another day in better times.

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm not willing to accept a compromise to saving the southwest chief. It's national or nothing. Now once we save the southwest chief I'm open to talking about new service. I have my pet train that was cancelled in the 1970s Carter Cuts. I'll see if you can figure out which trains are mine.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If Amtrak would reinstate the DW (or through cars off the CZ) that would be a reasonable substitution for losing the SWC/rerouting it on the Transcon.

Another possibility (although much longer) would be extending the CS to LAX).

I suppose that was a 'typo'...you meant extending the CZ, not the CS to LAX?

Right.

 

[railiner]

I'm not willing to accept a compromise to saving the southwest chief. It's national or nothing. Now once we save the southwest chief I'm open to talking about new service. I have my pet train that was cancelled in the 1970s Carter Cuts. I'll see if you can figure out which trains are mine.

Let me guess... it would have to serve either SC or OR, right?Since SC didnt lose any, and the Pioneer outlasted those cuts, it would have to be....the North Coast Hiawatha?

 

[fredmcain]

Now the pushback begins in right earnest. Should be interesting to see how all this plays out...

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/heinrich-balks-at-amtraks-plan-to-abandon-nm-route/4961142/?cat=500

I think what we need to know is EXACTLY what it would cost to make this route viable again. By "viable" I mean CTC, PTC and longer sidings. The grades on Raton and Glorieta passes would still remain unaddressed but I don't feel like they would be that much of an issue for lighter, faster intermodal trains. This could, in turn, get BNSF interested and they might just decide to keep the route after all. Such an outcome is not unprecedented.

I hate to say it, but Anderson's position that spending several hundred million dollars to really get the line up to snuff for a single daily, money-losing passenger train does not really make all that much sense. What the line needs more than anything else is more traffic. It CAN be done. What I would envision would be several daily and very hot but rather short Chicago-Los Angeles intermodal trains and maybe one hot Denver-El Paso intermodal train.

If Amtrak and the states involved would be willing to make a bigger commitment then perhaps BNSF would also step up to the plate and throw some of their own money at it.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm not willing to accept a compromise to saving the southwest chief. It's national or nothing. Now once we save the southwest chief I'm open to talking about new service. I have my pet train that was cancelled in the 1970s Carter Cuts. I'll see if you can figure out which trains are mine.

Let me guess... it would have to serve either SC or OR, right?Since SC didnt lose any, and the Pioneer outlasted those cuts, it would have to be....the North Coast Hiawatha?

You would be correct. Even though I would settle for the southern Railway Carolina Special.

 

[jis]

North Coast Hiawatha served Oregon?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

North Coast Hiawatha served Oregon?

Not according to the old timetables. In the old Pioneer days, there was no need to have a SPK-PDX leg. But even before the Pioneer (pre 1977), the NCH still didn't serve Portland (back then neither did the Empire Builder).

http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19760615&item=0050

http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0043

 

[railiner]

I guess my memory failed me....I thought there was a Portland section, but that was prior to Amtrak.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[jis]

What is more interesting is that the Amtrak North Coast Hiawatha actually took the more northerly Stevens Pass route through Washington, while the Empire Builder took the southerly Stampede Pass route.

When the NCH was discontinued, the Portand section of the Empire Builder was added to continue serving Pasco while the main train was moved to the Stevens Pass route. Of course it also added a very usefule set of city pairs including Portland as a destination for the entire Empire Builder route upto Spokane from the east. While the NCH ran there was no Portland section

 

[cpotisch]

Next up on the chopping block, the Sunset Ltd.

When has it not been on the chopping block?

I would mention that if they axe the Sunset, and the Chief gets chopped up, Los Angeles would no longer have ANY through service east. If that happens, the farthest east you'll be able to go by train will be Albuquerque.

 

[AmtrakFlyer]

Call your house reps and senators have your friends and family call too!

 

[bretton88]

Amtrak and BNSF requested a 10 year commitment from the 3 states to maintain the line, they didn't get it. Instead you have this patchwork setup of federal grants that get awarded some years and other years rejected. Amtrak has decided they can no longer accept this unreliability. Heck, New Mexico can't even install the necessary PTC on its own commuter line.

On another note, I've heard rumblings from Colorado that they may not be opposed to dropping the NM leg, especially if it allows Amtrak to provide more reliable service to Colorado (ahem, Pueblo, possibly Denver).

 

[Seaboard92]

As much as I would like the North Coast Limited I would never advocate cutting the Southwest Chief to get it back. We have the Empire Builder for now. And we will be alright. The southwest chief has no other daily train serving similar markets.

 

[Chey]

On another note, I've heard rumblings from Colorado that they may not be opposed to dropping the NM leg, especially if it allows Amtrak to provide more reliable service to Colorado (ahem, Pueblo, possibly Denver).

Wow. The plot thickens. Can you tell us where you heard this?

What would that look like? La Junta to Pueblo? No more Trinidad?

 

[Seaboard92]

If they want a train for Pueblo and Denver I'm all for that. Except only after we save the Southwest Chief.

 

[jebr]

I haven't seen any actions that make me think he's trying to make rail travel irrelevant; rather, he's trying to find ways to make and keep Amtrak relevant to a broader section of the population. Private cars and sit-down diner service don't matter to most of the traveling public; on-time performance, convenient schedules, and safe and reliable travel are much larger factors, and so far he seems to be focusing on at least some of those aspects to improve them.

So by removing hot meals, checked luggage, and staffed stations Anderson is making Amtrak more appealing to people who were previously turned off by these features? How many additional long distance sleeper trips do you plan on booking now that Amtrak is becoming so much more modern and relevant to your section of the population?

To answer your question directly: I've planned zero new long distance sleeper trips have been planned due to Amtrak's changes.

But if your measure of success for Amtrak is "how strong is their long distance sleeper ridership," then our standards for what Amtrak should be focusing on are quite different. If that's our standard, then we can look north to the Canadian to see what that would likely result in; a very pleasant journey, but one that only runs a couple times a week and is quite expensive. (There's also the much larger issue that the schedule is so long that it's faster to get between the two endpoints on Amtrak than it is VIA, but I'm willing to concede that part of that is due to legacy laws that give Amtrak theoretical priority where VIA does not.)

However, Amtrak's goal should be some mix of maximizing ridership for general transportation while offering basic transportation services to communities that don't have other (non-personal-vehicle) options. If (and admittedly this is a big if, especially given the SWC proposal) the funds saved from reducing staffed stations and diner service results in funds being used to make Amtrak safer, more reliable, more accessible, or grow the network, then that's a net win. There's some small rumblings of that from what I've heard (mainly with maintenance getting more funding and potentially being held to higher standards.) Amtrak may not have the cash flow to improve the other aspects before (or immediately when) cutting amenities, so I'm a bit willing to wait and see on some of the staffing cuts to see how that money is used.

I totally agree that the SWC proposal is a nightmare, and it deserves to be pushed back against with fervor. The problem is that I feel that the outrage over a lot of the other cuts (especially the food service reconfiguration to save money) makes it so that when big things do come out and need to be spoken out against, it just gets thrown into the same ignore bin as the outrage over things that most people in Congress (and probably on Amtrak's board) are either fine with or may have even pushed Anderson to do.

 

[mlanoue]

With Anderson showing interest in a Front Range corridor, would it be entirely unreasonable to consider extending that corridor from at least Denver south to Albuquerque? That could possibly provide multiple trains using the New Mexico segment and might make generate more revenue to help pay for upkeep. I'm sure there are multiple challenges with that, but it seems like those two cities should be connected if he is serious about creating corridors--especially if he considers LA to Albuquerque a corridor.

 

[bretton88]

With Anderson showing interest in a Front Range corridor, would it be entirely unreasonable to consider extending that corridor from at least Denver south to Albuquerque? That could possibly provide multiple trains using the New Mexico segment and might make generate more revenue to help pay for upkeep. I'm sure there are multiple challenges with that, but it seems like those two cities should be connected if he is serious about creating corridors--especially if he considers LA to Albuquerque a corridor.

A stand alone corridor would be well short of the 750 mile rule. So it would require buy in from Colorado and NM. NM has zero interest in this, and even if they did, the massive loan payments on the Railrunner are going to NM's ability to pay for a very long time.

 

[bretton88]

On another note, I've heard rumblings from Colorado that they may not be opposed to dropping the NM leg, especially if it allows Amtrak to provide more reliable service to Colorado (ahem, Pueblo, possibly Denver).

Wow. The plot thickens. Can you tell us where you heard this?

What would that look like? La Junta to Pueblo? No more Trinidad?

This is one of a lot of options Colorado, via the Southwest Chief and Front Range commission, is looking at. It would be La Junta-Pueblo, then turn north to Colorado Springs, and terminate in Denver. I highly doubt this happens, UP and BNSF won't like it and there's a lot of logistical challenges in it. However this is a good indicator of how state's think, not in the national interest, but what's in it for them.

 

[railiner]

On another note, I've heard rumblings from Colorado that they may not be opposed to dropping the NM leg, especially if it allows Amtrak to provide more reliable service to Colorado (ahem, Pueblo, possibly Denver).

Wow. The plot thickens. Can you tell us where you heard this?

What would that look like? La Junta to Pueblo? No more Trinidad?

This is one of a lot of options Colorado, via the Southwest Chief and Front Range commission, is looking at. It would be La Junta-Pueblo, then turn north to Colorado Springs, and terminate in Denver. I highly doubt this happens, UP and BNSF won't like it and there's a lot of logistical challenges in it. However this is a good indicator of how state's think, not in the national interest, but what's in it for them.

Well you can't say that Colorado didn't at least try to keep the original train going, before it became harder and harder....at least they are still trying to maintain some semblance of service, that will benefit themselves, and some other places as well.

 

[DSS&A]

Now the pushback begins in right earnest. Should be interesting to see how all this plays out...

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/heinrich-balks-at-amtraks-plan-to-abandon-nm-route/4961142/?cat=500

I think what we need to know is EXACTLY what it would cost to make this route viable again. By "viable" I mean CTC, PTC and longer sidings. The grades on Raton and Glorieta passes would still remain unaddressed but I don't feel like they would be that much of an issue for lighter, faster intermodal trains. This could, in turn, get BNSF interested and they might just decide to keep the route after all. Such an outcome is not unprecedented.
I hate to say it, but Anderson's position that spending several hundred million dollars to really get the line up to snuff for a single daily, money-losing passenger train does not really make all that much sense. What the line needs more than anything else is more traffic. It CAN be done. What I would envision would be several daily and very hot but rather short Chicago-Los Angeles intermodal trains and maybe one hot Denver-El Paso intermodal train.

If Amtrak and the states involved would be willing to make a bigger commitment then perhaps BNSF would also step up to the plate and throw some of their own money at it.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain

I agree that this solution to get more trains over the route to share the costs is a good option. The states are going to have to take the front lead with funding and effort and the BNSF could then join the program at uts cost effective level.

 

[Tarm]

Since I believe that the future of passenger rail in this country is to restructure the LD trains into corridors I would solve the SWC situation by truncating the route at Kansas City on the east end and Albuquerque on the west end. That would free up 904 route miles a day. The 904 miles could be reallocated to a second Chicago- Kansas City frequency (437 miles) plus a second Chicago-St.Paul frequency (410 miles). The Albuquerque-Los Angeles train could be flipped to a daytime schedule. All of these routes would be coach trains with their lower costs.

More frequencies, lower cost, better boarding times, higher ridership. Is Amtrak in the business of hauling passengers or is it just a rolling museum of 1950's train travel?

If we can't have more Amtrak we can at least have better Amtrak.

Tarm