Southwest Chief Re-Route?

[jis]

Yes, The Caprock Express is a railfan's wet dream and is unlikely to happen anytime soon if ever. Who knows what kind of additional facilities BNSF and UP will demand between Denver and Trinidad before they'd accept a passenger train. OTOH if Denver eventually constructs a front range south commuter service through Colorado Springs then perhaps that facility could be used to at alleviate some of the problems of getting to Trinidad at least part ways, sort of like what has happened on the Wasatch Front between Salt Lake City and Ogden.

 

[henryj]

Yes, The Caprock Express is a railfan's wet dream and is unlikely to happen anytime soon if ever. Who knows what kind of additional facilities BNSF and UP will demand between Denver and Trinidad before they'd accept a passenger train. OTOH if Denver eventually constructs a front range south commuter service through Colorado Springs then perhaps that facility could be used to at alleviate some of the problems of getting to Trinidad at least part ways, sort of like what has happened on the Wasatch Front between Salt Lake City and Ogden.

I think it's just one man's dream. But it has way more problems than just the front range. The route through Lubbock from Ft Worth takes over 3 hours longer than the old Texas Zephyr route straight up through Amarillo(and that is using old timetables). Then the BNSF runs directionally now from Amarillo north to Pueblo and I don't have any idea what the route through Las Animas Jct. looks like. It was just a branch and freight only. The route north from Canyon Jct. through Lubbock to Amarillo was also freight only and probably not signaled. I doubt if there are any facilities left in Lubbock for passengers. Were Texas to Colorado service ever to resume, the preferred route would be the old Texas Zephyr route. It's the fastest and shortest and BNSF has done a lot of work improving it from even the old Texas Zephyr days. Lubbock can just be a thru-way bus. I think this connection is one that Amtrak needs to pursue, but with the present situation, I have no expectation that this will ever happen. Right now, just preserving the SWC is beginning to look iffy.

 

[George Harris]

This thread covers a lot of the issues concerning the reroute

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Are there any updates on this?

 

[Amtrak172]

I can't see why Amtrak would want to reroute the Southwest Chief. What about you guys

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I can't see why Amtrak would want to reroute the Southwest Chief. What about you guys

Have you read all 17 pages in this thread?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak May or May not want to. There are reasons not to including potentially changing the legal validity of the SWC as part of PRRIA's defined existing national network.

As a matter of business sense, the reroute makes an awful lot of sense. It would greatly prove the population density of the route.

 

[greatcats]

Many people, including myself, would rather see the train remain on its present route. As GML indicated, read back in the thread and you will find out a great deal in this subject. I have to agree that there are valid and compelling reasons to reroute this train.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Financially it's a good idea to reroute. Include faster running times and potential revenue from new stops it just makes perfect sense.

 

[Eugene S]

I think the real question is "when will the SWC be re routed or end?" Watch monitor on Amtrak web site--note where the bad tracks are and watch various engineers -- "cowboy" the train over the various bad parts of track. Raises many questions. See if you can find those bad spots. One is on west side of Glorieta Pass and another is on the eastside near Pecos river. Another is North of Las Vegas near Valmora. And another is on north side of Raton Pass. Last Week There was one Engineer who took these at 80 mph. Other engineers are taking these bad places at 19 mph or less. Raises a lot of questions. ------- The Mayor of Amarillo has said in public statement that everything about reroute is awaiting news from Amtrak that it will reroute. See from the above it wont be too long. If I understand correctly track condition requiring 14 mph and below is exempted track and passengers are not to be transported over it. I predict 12 months or less on a Reroute or End.

 

[printman2000]

I think the real question is "when will the SWC be re routed or end?" Watch monitor on Amtrak web site--note where the bad tracks are and watch various engineers -- "cowboy" the train over the various bad parts of track. Raises many questions. See if you can find those bad spots. One is on west side of Glorieta Pass and another is on the eastside near Pecos river. Another is North of Las Vegas near Valmora. And another is on north side of Raton Pass. Last Week There was one Engineer who took these at 80 mph. Other engineers are taking these bad places at 19 mph or less. Raises a lot of questions. ------- The Mayor of Amarillo has said in public statement that everything about reroute is awaiting news from Amtrak that it will reroute. See from the above it wont be too long. If I understand correctly track condition requiring 14 mph and below is exempted track and passengers are not to be transported over it. I predict 12 months or less on a Reroute or End.

I am fairly certain there are not engineers out there deciding how fast they will go. The speed limits are set and if they do not follow them, they will not be employed very long.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak has stated that they're not going to commit to the reroute until the "end of 2014". That was the deadline they gave for preserving the Raton Pass route. So I think we all just cool our heels until then.

Honestly, I think Amtrak should have given a shorter deadline -- nothing's going to change before the end of 2014. Specifically, the composition of the legislatures and the governors aren't going to change until January 2015. It looks like there's a low chance that this Colorado legislature will commit money for Raton Pass, a lower chance that this New Mexico legislature will, and no chance at all that this Kansas legislature will.

 

[airjnke]

Studies, studies, studies.....I swear it seems like our politicians sometimes spends more on studies that it would just to do it & be done with it. We've got a beautiful train station here in ICT & many of us have been waiting years to be able to use it. I realize a station is cheap compared to the miles of bad track that will need to replaced to become passenger rated from NEW to OKC. We recently took the Heartland Flyer from OKC to FTW & it was some of the nicest rails I've been on. You might read the comments in the Kansas.com link. Too bad more people don't love rail travel like we do.

http://ksn.com/2014/04/29/future-of-southwest-chief-weighing-on-federal-grant/

http://www.kansas.com/2014/04/29/3429238/oklahoma-officials-back-wichitas.html

 

[afigg]

News on an effort to raise $24 million for maintenance for an 80 mile segment of the SW route.

Denver Post: Amtrak's Southwest Chief gets boost from local communities. Excerpts:

These entities are partnering with officials from communities in Kansas, Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad and Amtrak to submit the application for a $15 million federal grant — an initial step toward securing costs for an estimated $200 million of maintenance on the train's current route.

Additional matching funds outside Colorado include: BNSF, $2 million; Amtrak, $4 million; and Kansas, $3 million.

Combined with the federal grant, the commitment would create a total of $24 million to go toward track maintenance.
.......

The federal grant would fund about 80 miles of repairs.

A measure making its way through the Colorado legislature would create a commission to work closely with neighboring states, Amtrak and BNSF to map out additional funding to keep the train in the state. A mix of southern Colorado residents and rail and tourist industries would sit on the commission

The timing of the announcement of the grant application and the amount strongly suggests that they applied for a FY2014 TIGER grant. Applications were due by April 28, 2014. 20% of the TIGER grant funds are required to go to rural areas which improves the odds of the application getting selected. Competing against fewer applications for the rural area set aside portion of the $600 million.

If the grant application is selected and $24 million is raised to start on track repairs, I think that would force Amtrak to postpone their 2014 deadline while the political efforts continue to line up the $200 million total. If the TIGER grant program continues, could be a vehicle to raise $30 to $50 million over multiple grant awards towards funding the track repairs.

 

[jis]

Additionally both Colorado and New Mexico could possibly dig up some money from CMAQ if they wanted to, and even convert some highway funds. It really is a set of decisions for them to make. It is not as if there are not multiple possible sources of what amounts to be a drop in the bucket when spread out over the years.

 

[Eugene S]

Most of the bad track is in New Mexico which means that is New Mexico's baby. The state of New Mexico is doing a financial study which is to be ready in September. The state of New Mexico is not losing Amtrak service . Which route is most advantageous for the state is what they have to decide.

 

[printman2000]

Most of the bad track is in New Mexico which means that is New Mexico's baby.

Not sure that is correct. There is a lot of bad track in Kansas and Colorado. Don't think that "most" of it in New Mexico. I would take "most" as being at least 51% and I just cannot believe that is true.

 

[Eugene S]

It is true, Glorieta Pass is double tracked on both sides and needs to be because of passing. Since BNSF owns the track, rail replacements will have to be to their model and their model calls for 136 lb cwr rail and concrete ties If you still dispute this I encourage you to measure it on google earth and print your findings here. It is easy to forget the original intent of BNSF which is to abandon and cut line between La Junta and Trinidad. One could make a case that this entire ordeal is a ploy to get states to fund rail.

 

[printman2000]

I am just saying, I do not think the total mileage of needed replacement rail is more in New Mexico than it is in Colorado/Kansas. Using the mileage in Amtrak's timetable shows that from Raton to Lamy is only 176 miles. Going from Raton to Newton is 460 miles.

 

[neroden]

Applications were due by April 28, 2014. 20% of the TIGER grant funds are required to go to rural areas which improves the odds of the application getting selected. Competing against fewer applications for the rural area set aside portion of the $600 million.

You haven't been counting the rural applications, have you? The entire Vermonter rail project qualifies, as do many *road* projects.
I would be seriously disappointed if Amtrak were stupid enough to extend its deadline for the Raton Pass route. Amtrak stated that it needs 2 years planning to do the reroute, and Amtrak's contract with BNSF ends in January 2016. If Amtrak keeps putting off the reroute due to empty promises and ideas about future money, the SW Chief could be cancelled entirely.

There's going to be n-o-t-h-i-n-g until the November elections, but frankly, even if very supportive legislatures are elected, it's probably going to be empty promises for months or years. And at that point the SW Chief as a whole really starts to be at risk.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

One could wonder if the whole point of the charade is an excuse to discontinue the Southwest Chief.

 

[afigg]

Applications were due by April 28, 2014. 20% of the TIGER grant funds are required to go to rural areas which improves the odds of the application getting selected. Competing against fewer applications for the rural area set aside portion of the $600 million.

You haven't been counting the rural applications, have you? The entire Vermonter rail project qualifies, as do many *road* projects.
I would be seriously disappointed if Amtrak were stupid enough to extend its deadline for the Raton Pass route. Amtrak stated that it needs 2 years planning to do the reroute, and Amtrak's contract with BNSF ends in January 2016. If Amtrak keeps putting off the reroute due to empty promises and ideas about future money, the SW Chief could be cancelled entirely.

There's going to be n-o-t-h-i-n-g until the November elections, but frankly, even if very supportive legislatures are elected, it's probably going to be empty promises for months or years. And at that point the SW Chief as a whole really starts to be at risk.

No. I have not been counting the rural area TIGER applications, but the competition certainly appear to be less than for the more urban/suburban applications for streetcar, BRT, bike, road, etc projects. Many of the rural area applications are for run of the mill road and highway projects which are easy to reject as those projects can get funding from the much larger road and highway pots of money.

There may be serious risks to the proposed move to the transcon route that Amtrak is aware of and would rather not take. The potential cost and political support risks in the possible move may be a lot more in terms of placing the entire SWC at risk than we realize. If Amtrak can get $200 million lined up in bits and pieces, that may be the safer route to insure that the SWC keeps running. If this grant application is selected with the matching funds, with $40 million over 10 years each already promised by Amtrak and BNSF, Amtrak will be about half way to the $200 million needed over the next 10 years to stay on the Raton pass route.

 

[neroden]

There may be serious risks to the proposed move to the transcon route that Amtrak is aware of and would rather not take.

Maybe. Since these risks have never been published and I can't come up with any, I don't believe it for a minute.
It's a far better route. Both Amarillo and Wichita have made credible commitments to spending lots of money on stations. KS and OK are backing the Heartland Flyer extension, which shares the most problematic section of track in terms of needed upgrades (through Wichita).

NMDOT has two alternatives listed in its state rail plan. $31.38 million in capital costs to retain the current route; $3.4 million in capital costs to rehabilitate the Albuquerque Wye. The same document says that BNSF will need expenditures of $6.8 million/year to maintain the Raton Pass route track within NM. Which do you think NMDOT will pick?

The potential cost and political support risks in the possible move may be a lot more in terms of placing the entire SWC at risk than we realize.

Sure. And the NSA may have secretly foiled terrorist plots which they never told us about. It seems completely implausible.
Regarding political support, I decided to do my research.

http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/79

KS-1 and CO-4, despite having Amtrak service which is threatened, are represented in Congress by Amtrak opponents anyway. CO-4 may be contested, but KS-1 is secure. NM-3 is represented by an Amtrak supporter, but I don't think he'll be furious and vindictive if there's a reroute -- he also represents Clovis.

The US Senators involved won't care; Colorado is benefited much more by the CZ, NM will continue to have service either way, and Kansas will in some sense get improved service.

Actually, OK-3 is represented by a Republican who has voted for Amtrak in the past! Probably he would appreciate the reroute!

Regarding potential cost, if the potential cost of rerouting is secretly very high, the only reason I can think of would be if BNSF really really doesn't want Amtrak on this part of the Transcon... in which case BNSF will go ahead and pay, all by itself, the full cost to keep Amtrak on the Raton Pass route, and this entire situation was a big bluff. Seems unlikely.

If Amtrak can get $200 million lined up in bits and pieces, that may be the safer route to insure that the SWC keeps running. If this grant application is selected with the matching funds, with $40 million over 10 years each already promised by Amtrak and BNSF, Amtrak will be about half way to the $200 million needed over the next 10 years to stay on the Raton pass route.

Be careful about double-counting. Amtrak and BNSF's "matching funds" for this are probably out of Amtrak and BNSF's prior commitments.

The other $104.75 million probably isn't going to show up. I suppose it's possible, but politically it seems completely absurd. I can't see NM spending a penny if Martinez wins, given that NM *refused to buy the line* for a mere $5 million. Even if Martinez loses, it seems unlikely that NM will cover the $3.5 million/year for 10 years. Kansas has probably put in all it's going to -- $3 million, again not enough for one year of its "share".

This means Colorado would have to supply substantially more than an equal share. I suppose this is possible -- it is the richest of the three states -- but it still seems highly unlikely even if the proposed commission is set up, which it hasn't been yet. Colorado is already asking for a reroute to Pueblo in exchange.

Frankly, if Amtrak stays on the Raton Pass route, I'm worried that the money won't *really* be there long term, the track will deteriorate, and we'll be dealing with the same damn problem in 5 years.

If we saw a real, serious commitment to provide reliable, substantial funding for Raton Pass -- if, for instance, Colorado commits a reliable revenue stream of $10 million/year indefinitely -- that would be great. But if keeping the Raton Pass route is done via the usual cobbled-together starvation-budget to maintain minimal dregs-level service -- which seems like the current best-case-scenario for keeping Raton Pass -- then much better to relocate the train to the bigger cities.

 

[neroden]

If the TIGER grant program continues, could be a vehicle to raise $30 to $50 million over multiple grant awards towards funding the track repairs.

It sounds nice, but this is just not going to happen, unless someone at DOT takes a particular love to Raton Pass.
There are just too many other *superior* projects competing for TIGER funding. Even just Amtrak projects, and even just *rural* Amtrak projects. Vermont's restoration of the Western Corridor may be able to get this much money over multiple rounds, because it's *far more useful*. Even Amtrak projects in the *same part of the country* will be competing for this money -- the Heartland Flyer extension is capable of getting rural funding and will be aggressively bidding for TIGER funds.

 

[Chas]

Bill to fund Southwest Chief goes to Colorado's governor for his signature.