I might be ignorant of all the limiting factors, but the average lifespan of a passenger railcar in the US has been about 50 years. VIA has squeezed even more out of the all-stainless Budd cars they inherited from Canadian Pacific, albeit their operations are on a vastly smaller scale and some US commuter operators have also strung along for longer than 50 years. The time span from the entry into service of the Superliner Is (1980) plus 50 years takes us to 2030 so it seems reasonable to me to expect to be able to get them to hang on that long. Superliner IIs can be expected theoretically to be good until at least 2041. I expect to see Superliner I's being subject to increasing cannibalization, and perhaps some creative stopgaps such as Horizons and perhaps even Amfleets being pressed into long-distance service. Gardiner seems to have been communicating the expectation upper management has, whether it is realistic or not is something I'm not qualified to answer.
Speculation about remaining life of Superliners
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Maglev
Conductor
It is my understanding that the maintainability of Superliners is an order of magnitude better than Budd cars, so their life may be much greater than 50 years (although indeed the Superliner I trucks may be problematic). Tasks which take weeks on Budd cars take days on Superliners. I have always assumed the Superliners would go to Canada after Amtrak is done with them.
It would be really nice to do something about that grungy carpet on the walls of the Superliner II's if we need to live with them for 10 or more years. The Acelas were refurbished even though their replacement was only a few years away. I rode the Texas Eagle in Superliner II number 32112, which had the carpet replaced but no other renovation, and I think this is an easy fix.
I call this picture "Sunset on the Sunset Limited," even though I was technically on the Eagle. It shows the carpeting replaced with faux wood in sleeper 32112 (January, 2019):
It would be really nice to do something about that grungy carpet on the walls of the Superliner II's if we need to live with them for 10 or more years. The Acelas were refurbished even though their replacement was only a few years away. I rode the Texas Eagle in Superliner II number 32112, which had the carpet replaced but no other renovation, and I think this is an easy fix.
I call this picture "Sunset on the Sunset Limited," even though I was technically on the Eagle. It shows the carpeting replaced with faux wood in sleeper 32112 (January, 2019):
No question more needs to be done to the SLs to make them aesthetically appealing as they age. The refresh to the seating and bedding was a decent start but that wall carpeting in the VLIIs is just plain gross. It can't be a ridiculously expensive or difficult task to replace that.
Any idea of how long these leases are for and when they expire?
west point
Engineer
IMO there is too much emphasis on age of various equipment. How about mileage and exposure to harsh environments. Also, higher operating speeds where AM-1s operated more on NEC Many posters do not know that the Amfleet-2s as a group have much more mileage than the Amfleet-1s . Yet management keeps talking about retiring AM-1s.
It may be that retiring the Superliners is because Amtrak has all the expense of maintaining them. New equipment purchases have the builder maintaining much of the equipment needs instead of it being an Amtrak operating cost.
It may be that retiring the Superliners is because Amtrak has all the expense of maintaining them. New equipment purchases have the builder maintaining much of the equipment needs instead of it being an Amtrak operating cost.
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CA has 11 coaches and 1 sightseer car down from ~20 coaches, 4 coach baggage and 1 sightseer along with 20 horizons pre 2020. CA is has the busiest routes outside of the northeast.
CA might lease some more horzions and CA returned 1 superliner coach it rebuilt in 2021 after but yeah we paid to rebuild them when amtrak couldn't/wouldn't so we've got rights to them.
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toddinde
OBS Chief
Of course. The US manufacturing base for almost anything isn’t what it needs to be. I still like the idea of doing what the C&NW did with its intercity Bi Levels and what Amtrak did with the Horizons. Find something off the shelf that can be made comfortable for intercity service and can be delivered relatively quickly, and get them in service to augment the fleet. Put them where you can to free up cars. This could help bring Superliners back from lease to California and especially be used for axle count in the Midwest.It's sad. Back in the streamliner era, railroads could order from four major US carbuilders, and probably get delivery in just a couple of years, or even less...
toddinde
OBS Chief
According to Stephen Gardner, 50 years is it. I don’t think anyone can argue that Amtrak cars haven’t been exposed to harsh environments and had the wheels rolled off of them.
west point
Engineer
Where has Gardner said that??
Speaking from the depths of Gardner's deep technical expertise...
VIA's Budd fleet has 69 years on them and plans to get 10 more. Then again, they're Budds and pretty scrupulously maintained.
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I always thought that was odd because VIA seemed to have no trouble at all installing retention toilets in their cars. The only thing I could think of was that, as I remember, VIA used a German contractor and U.S. restrictions may have prevented Amtrak from doing that.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Without Congressional funding there was no money to make it happen. Almost everything is possible given adequate budget, something that is not always available at Amtrak. There were also supposed to be 100+ Viewliners. It got sliced back to 50.
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Amfleet-2, typically 5 - 7 years newer than Amfleet-1, have more mileage on them. Keep that in mind. It might be wise to convert some Amfleet-1, such as the business class ones, back to long distance, which they once were, only thing missing now is leg rest.
I concur.
I don't think the Amfleet 1s were ever long distance. I believe the current business class cars used to be Metroliner coaches. Not that it makes much difference, the business class cars could be used for long distance coach with minimal changes. The leg rests aren't really necessary. I've never used them when I've ridden long distance coach. They're not very comfortable and leave your feet dangling over the end in a position I can't stand for more than 5 minutes. The Amfleet 1 coaches could also be converted to long distance, but the seats would need to be replaced to have greater seat pitch and recline. And they'd have to install curtains or shades on the windows.
Yes they were, on the Montrealer, Cardinal, Shenandoah, City of New of New Orleans, Spirit of California, North Star, Desert Wind, and Pioneer.
All LD cars have leg rests. Business class cars have curtains and have 60 seats, similar to an Amfleet-2.
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SubwayNut
Conductor
Sometimes they appear on Long Distance Routes particularly the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited. I had a successful negotiation with the Coach attendant to move to the Amfleet II for the more comfortable seats from the Buissiness Class Amfleet I I was assigned to on my last SDY-SBN trip.
If Gardner said, "Fifty years is it," and if he were right, that's a limit, not an average. But VIA proves him wrong. Still, there are so many passenger cars in service and of varying ages and at varying points in their service lives that I doubt the "average" number of 50 years; 50 sounds like a suspiciously round number to me and not really a calculated or even estimated average of car life. Maybe 50 years is a "typical" or "expected" service life?
There was a subfleet of Amfleet I coaches that were configured for long distance travel. Instead of the standard 84 seats, they only had 60 seats, at a greater pitch, and did have legrests. In addition, a “dressing room” was added, adjacent to one of the rest rooms.
I believe these cars also had window curtains.
I believe these cars also had window curtains.
cirdan
Engineer
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I don't think there is any magical limit set in stone.
But what happens is that as equipment ages, maintenance gets more expensive. This can be down to simple things such as parts no longer being available or the companies that supplied them no longer in business. It can be down to more fundamental things such as structural elements simply being worn out and in need of repairs that would not be justified for equipment of that age, or simply because the designs are no longer compatible with modern requirements (ADA etc). None of these problems are insurmountable of course. If you have deep enough pockets, you can keep anything running and indeed modify or rebuild anything to keep it current. But the higher the costs, the easier it is to justify replacing by something new. The thing is though that CAPEX and OPEX tend to come out of different pots and maintenance is typically OPEX which is often easier to justify than CAPEX.
I was an avid Amtrak train rider back in the days when Amfleet cars were used on a few long-distance runs. After riding them a few times, I avoided them like the plague. I don't ever remember riding on a long distance Amfleet coach that was equipped with leg rests. To me, this made them totally unsuitable. The narrow windows weren't so good, either.
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You must be younger than most of us. I rode them 1978 - 1982 on the Pioneer, Cardinal, and Montrealer. They were fine, not much different than an Amfleet-2. At least the Amfleet-1 had a little dressing room. On the Amfleet-2, you have to use the ADA toilet. Two of the LD Amfleet-1 had a couple of Superliner economy rooms to satisfy ICC sleeper requirements on the Shenandoah. They later ran on the Night Owl.
I also rode them on various overnight trains, and liked them. In fact, one of the most comfortable coach rides I ever experienced, was on the Shenandoah. I was in the car with the two Economy Sleeper rooms, as were the other approximately 20 or so thru WAS-CIN passengers. The old time B&O conductor was extremely accommodating to all of us. He personally rotated every other seat pair, and raised all four of the facing legrests, so we each had a “bed”, either individual’s or couples. He then provided us with two pillows each. He also begged us to write our congressman to continue this train.
The passengers going shorter distances were accommodated in the other coach, also a long distance config, but without the Economy rooms. There was also a cafe coach.
The passengers going shorter distances were accommodated in the other coach, also a long distance config, but without the Economy rooms. There was also a cafe coach.
The B&O always provided great service, unlike PRR. My ride in the Shenandoah (it had a 10-6 then) was bittersweet. After so many trips on B&O’s National Ltd i knew I wouldn’t ride this route again as it was clear it wouldn’t last. I don’t know for sure but I suspect influential Congressman Harley Staggers had something to do with its existence.
