St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago Corridor service H2 2024

[Willbridge]

The Empire Builder was a Great Northern train -
Great Northern merged/bought/consolidated with the Burlington folks - - -

Interesting would be an image of the actual routes of the competing 4 railroads -
The current EB operates from MSP to CHI on mostly CP (old Milwaukee - Soo?) tracks
Minnesota side of the Mississippi river
The Burlington (GN) route would have been on the Wisconsin side ?
Chicago/Northwestern - Hudson WI - Eau Claire Black River Falls Madison (present UP trackage ?
Northern Pacific ?

Interesting enough how some of these trains could travel at triple digit speeds -
BUT THEN THERE WAS NO FREIGHT INTERFERENCE and heavy rail loads tearing the firmament
out from under the railroad bed were nonexistent !

Although the Soo, like the Chicago Great Western and the Rock Island. went between Chicago and the Twin Cities, its main value was for service to small cities along the way. For example, the rotogravure supplement that we carried in our high school paper was shipped from Waukesha on the Soo, connecting to the Mainstreeter in St. Paul. There may have been a tariff reason for that, or the printer may have been in Waukesha. It wasn't the fastest way.

The Burlington leaving the Twin Cities was on the Wisconsin side, the Milwaukee was on the Minnesota side. The North Western's fast trains CHI<>MSP ran via Milwaukee, Wyeville, and Eau Claire. The Milwaukee and the North Western both had alternate routes.

 

[railiner]

The Empire Builder was a Great Northern train -
Great Northern merged/bought/consolidated with the Burlington folks - - -

Prior to the merger between the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Burlington, and SP&S; the Empire Builder was a Great Northern train from Seattle to St. Paul, and then a Burlington train from St. Paul to Chicago, as were all the other GN and NP trains conveyed to Chicago by the Burlington.
Prior to the merger, IIRC, the Burlington was jointly owned by the latter two.

 

[NewRails]

A friendly correction is that North Carolina has an astounding *seven!* total CID routes, so I believe they have the most of any state! But WI is not far behind Grateful for the work that WisDOT is doing (compared to MnDOT, cough), and other DOTs like NCDOT!

Yes, WisDOT is doing well. They have hired consultants for Phase 1 planning in each of the "Corridors" it has identified.
Interestingly enough it decided to combine Eau Claire and Madison, Wisconsin as one CID route (from Milwaukee on a yet to be specified route).
Did North Carolina combine any of the CID routes for which it received Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) funding?

 

[OmahaRoad]

Yes, WisDOT is doing well. They have hired consultants for Phase 1 planning in each of the "Corridors" it has identified.
Interestingly enough it decided to combine Eau Claire and Madison, Wisconsin as one CID route (from Milwaukee on a yet to be specified route).
Did North Carolina combine any of the CID routes for which it received Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) funding?

Makes sense that they combined those routes, at least for efficiency's sake! I can actually answer you question as the Carolinas Association for Passenger Trains (CAPT; soon rebranding to All Aboard Carolinas!) included info on what consultants were selected for each, and no, they did not combine any of them it seems.

Keeping myself on the topic of this thread, I am excited to see the results of the WisDOT studies when they are completed. I love thinking about how when, one day, if trains return to Madison, how full the trains will be, just like the Borealis is experiencing and honestly, probably even more so!

 

[thefirewarde]

9/19/24 Borealis update: ridership numbers for August remain strong, with a slight increase over July's impressive numbers!

Ridership for August:

Westbound #1333 11,746

Eastbound #1340 10,563

Total 22,309

Note - Ridership on the Empire Builder has shown slight increases this year, so we believe there is little to no cannibalization of Empire Builder ridership.

Source: https://allaboardminnesota.org/about/new-2nd-train-to-chicago-borealis/

That's average ridership of 391 daily westbound, and 352 daily eastbound. Ridership is up approx. 20% over June.

With capacity appearing to limit total ridership - business class is sold out right now some days a week or more in advance, peak travel days are at the $95 bucket in coach - it'd sure be nice to stick a half-coach half business car on that train.

 

[Amtrak25]

Looks like 10% of the westbound Borealis riders are taking the Empire Builder eastbound.

 

[WWW]

Looks like 10% of the westbound Borealis riders are taking the Empire Builder eastbound.

Puzzling statement - westbound Borealis - ? - eastbound Builder shouldn't that be westbound Builder


AND THEN TODAY 9/20 - - -
Builder #8/28 is operating well over 7 +++ hours LATE !

So LATE that the Borealis as a backup alternative will be get riders to Chicago town before the Builder #8/28
arrives in the dawn of the next day. And all the intermediate stops between MSP and CHI

The Borealis has such an attractive schedule why even think about the Builder unless going further west of MSP !


Train #8/28 details about delay - snipet

_
_ 09/20/24 2:45am EDT
_ As of 1:11 PM CT Service Update: Empire Builder Train 8/28
_ which departed Seattle (SEA)/Portland (PDX) on 9/18 is currently
_ operating approx.7hrs late due to an earlier unauthorized
_ vehicle coming in contact with Train 28 rail congestion
_ and speed restrictions. We sincerely appreciate your continued
_ patience and apologize for the lengthy delay incurred during
_ your travels.
_
_ 09/20/24 5:18am EDT
_ As of 4:17 AM CT Delay Notification: Train 8/28 is currently
_ operating approximately 8 hours and 25 minutes late due
_ to the late arrival of Train 28 at Spokane (SPK) and freight
_ train interference. We sincerely apologize for this delay
_ and greatly appreciate your patience.

 

[Amtrak25]

There are 10% more Borealis westbound than eastbound. How are they coming back ? The Grey Dog ?

 

[OmahaRoad]

There are 10% more Borealis westbound than eastbound. How are they coming back ? The Grey Dog ?

WisARP explains this each month as "More passengers on 1333 than 1340 is expected simply due to the schedule." I believe that refers mostly to the schedule and preexisting ridership of the Hiawatha trip that 1333 replaced.

While some passengers I'm sure take the Empire Builder eastbound, I don't think there's a great mystery here. I think a lot of people may only take the train in one direction, or just aren't doing a two-way trip for whatever reason overall. Anecdotally, due to the length of the trip, I know people (well, those going the whole route) who take the train one way and fly back.

 

[WWW]

Next Friday the 27th Friends of the 261 will have 2 of its cars (The Caritas and The Superdome) at the end of
the Empire Builder #8/28 from MSP to CHI - returning Sunday the 29th at the end of the #7/27
Link: 261.com
Hope the devil doesn't throw an instant replay screwing this week-end excursion - - -

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

I prefer 7/27 to 1333 to maximize my time spent in CHI, and for the dining & sightseer lounge cars.

 

[thefirewarde]

Most casual riders don't know and don't care that the RB and Borealis are different trains. They pick whichever one fits their schedule best.

 

[WWW]

Most casual riders don't know and don't care that the RB and Borealis are different trains. They pick whichever one fits their schedule best.

They pick whichever one fits their schedule best. ### I might add to that FARE/PRICE -

 

[Anderson]

Most casual riders don't know and don't care that the RB and Borealis are different trains. They pick whichever one fits their schedule best.

I mean, since Amtrak mostly locked coach pax out of the diner, the difference isn't huge. More legroom on the EB seems to be the big one?

 

[MARC Rider]

I mean, since Amtrak mostly locked coach pax out of the diner, the difference isn't huge. More legroom on the EB seems to be the big one?

The sightseer lounger might also be considered an extra amenity for the Empire Builder/

 

[WWW]

Sort of comparing apples to oranges mangos to tangarines etc. at al --- two different train concepts.
B - a point to point commuter train using the same trackage as the EB (CHI-MSP)
EB - while stopping at all but at MKA (Milwaukee Airport) and SVT (Sturtevant) is a full service sleeper/diner
sightseeing train.

 

[jis]

Sort of comparing apples to oranges mangos to tangarines etc. at al --- two different train concepts.
B - a point to point commuter train using the same trackage as the EB (CHI-MSP)
EB - while stopping at all but at MKA (Milwaukee Airport) and SVT (Sturtevant) is a full service sleeper/diner
sightseeing train.

Actually the EB is way more than a sightseeing train. Most of the political support that comes from the High Line Counties is for its transportation function, not sightseeing function. Without that support arguably the EB would have been gone quite a while back like during the massacre in the late '70s/early '80s when it was down to three times a week.

Strictly speaking the purpose served by the Borealis is Regional Transport, not just Commuter (as in "serving a person who travels some distance to work on a regular basis."), though there may be some commuters using it too.

 

[Amtrak25]

I dont think most people consider that since they don't know much about trains.

They query for service between Chicago and St Paul, and go when they want and possibly on whatever is cheaper. I doubt they will focus much on food service. Type of seats are not documented. Reservation system under "amenities" only says "lower level coach seats", nothing about leg rests or lack thereoff.

Given that Amtrak is too arrogant, lazy, and cheap to produce public timetables falling under their autocratic "no need to know" BS, people have no idea the Empire Builder is coming from the west coast and anyone's common sense can assume it has a higher propensity to be late.

 

[diesteldorf]

I prefer 7/27 to 1333 to maximize my time spent in CHI, and for the dining & sightseer lounge cars.

I agree, and was planning to take 7/27 a month ago when it was clear that Business-Class on the Borealis was sold out well in advance. I had even submitted a bid-up request, hoping to snag a low-bucket sleeper and dinner for the journey home. However, on the morning of my departure a Business-Class fare on 1333 opened up and I was able to redeem a 12-hour upgrade certificate.

At times, I really miss taking 7/27, but having 3 extra hours to get things done before heading to work the next day is worth it. Plus, it seems like the Borealis has always been packed/sold out the majority of times I've ridden, so going Business-Class "almost" feels like going sleeper at a much cheaper price......reserved single-seat, and some feeling of privacy.

 

[moselman66]

At times, I really miss taking 7/27, but having 3 extra hours to get things done before heading to work the next day is worth it. Plus, it seems like the Borealis has always been packed/sold out the majority of times I've ridden, so going Business-Class "almost" feels like going sleeper at a much cheaper price......reserved single-seat, and some feeling of privacy.

Are you able to reserve a specific seat when booking business class on Borealis? Or is it open / conductor-suggested seating, with people boarding at intermediate stations having fairly poor odds of nabbing a single seat if traveling alone, nor finding an open pair if traveling as a twosome?

 

[WWW]

Business class seating is OPEN - - -
Although if you are able to initiate a discussion with the Conductor anything is possible - - -
Especially seating keeping family/couples together - - -

Judging that BC seats are going to be prime (sold out) at origin stations CHI MSP
First come first choice suggest making an effort to be at the front of the line
The Business Cafe car alternates/rotates between the ends of the train (push-pull) this could make things
difficult to be in the right spot of the boarding area
Between MSP-MKE seats may become available randomly

As firewarde posted - it'd sure be nice to stick a half-coach half business car on that train.
Good idea but where is Amtrak going to get such a car (perhaps out of the Beech Grove bone yard?)

 

[OmahaRoad]

Barring any personal or weather-related things that come up, I'm booked for my first-ever Borealis trip as the last leg of my Thanksgiving Amtrak odyssey home to Minnesota from North Carolina! Will just be in coach, which will be a step down from the Floridian roomette that my girlfriend and I will be in all the way from Raleigh to Chicago. Couldn't justify the price for business class though the privacy and larger seats would be nice.

Honestly, though, I am more interested in experiencing coach class anyway, so I can compare my experiences to those of others on this new service, and be able to understand others' opinions on the seats/space better. I've heard so much criticism of the old Horizon cars over the past 2-3 years that I am honestly intrigued to finally experience them myself (Criticism includes a YouTuber visiting from another nation who took the Cascades and called the Horizons "prison cars" and whatnot)

I can't wait to try out the Borealis! Getting into MSP so much earlier than the Builder will be excellent, and also much more convenient for my family to pick us up. Even if the Borealis is 30-45 minutes late, which 1333 has been on and off, 7 to 7:15 is a world better than 4-ish hours later.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Criticism includes a YouTuber visiting from another nation who took the Cascades and called the Horizons "prison cars" and whatnot)

I know the YouTuber and video you are referring to, and I think his reference to prison cars had more to do with the actions of the Conductor than that actual car itself, although I recall he was not impressed by the Horizons.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I know the YouTuber and video you are referring to, and I think his reference to prison cars had more to do with the actions of the Conductor than that actual car itself, although I recall he was not impressed by the Horizons.

Aha, I see! I had only seen part of the video in passing--now that you mention it I remember the conductor issues. But he definitely disliked the Horizons, from what I recall from his commentary.

I just can't imagine they're as bad as some say, though yesterday I watched a Borealis trip video (from the first few days of service) by a new to me YouTuber, and he said--and demonstrated--the the Horizon seats "come loose!" The video shows him being able to pull it up on the side, like you can do with airline seats, I guess. So, that's probably not an issue when you think about it in the context of airplane seats, but does differ from most people's expectations for train seats, lol.

I will finally see for myself in a little under two months!

 

[moselman66]

Two Borealis items:

1. 100,000th passenger served on the Borealis 22 weeks after launch
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...e-twin-cities-hits-100000-riders/75838498007/
https://www.progressiverailroading....ns-served-over-100000-riders-since-May--73161

2. September showed promising improvement in on-time performance
September
84.1% of all station stops were on time
75.5% of all customers arrived at their station on-time

May through August
62.2% of all station stops were on time
45.2% of all customers arrived at their station on-time

CPKC permitting Borealis to start before "required" improvments are in place does risk higher delays, but big picture I don't think it was a mistake to not wait for a couple more years for them to be done.

It feels like...and this could be a wrong imprssion...that unless the westbound is almost perfectly on time at Red Wing that it often takes a very ugly delay between there at St Paul. I seem to recall the reuiqrement improvements were mostly around La Crosse / Winona and also St Paul. Anybody know more about delays on that last segment RDW-STP and if improvements are underway?

Links to the stat sources:

September OT (page 12 Current Month stat)
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...eptember-2024-Amtrak-Host-Railroad-Report.pdf

May through August (page 12, the Most Recent 12 Months stat)
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...s/August-2024-Amtrak-Host-Railroad-Report.pdf