St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago Corridor service H2 2024

[Stevenz]

Yes, that’s right. Thanks for the correction. But with up to 26 possible stops between Kenosha and downtown it seems like walking speed. It works OK for the shorter runs as you say and I would expect that’s typical of ridership until the nearer stations such as from Evanston on down when it is a more practical commute time. But what you give up in time you get a cheap fare relative to, well, any other option.

 

[Amtrak25]

When Wisconsin's former governor Walker killed the Madison extension, that same veto killed the Milwaukee - Kenosha commuter service proposal. Wisconsin has also prohibited the creation of regional public transit systems, just to stick with the municipal or county bus ones they have, and disallowed the Milwaukee street car system as basis for or morphing into a light rail interurban into the suburbs.

There are too many Sean Duffy's in the legislature. I can only see Wisconsin adding frequencies on the existing route, not adding not new routes.

 

[ryanwc]

Sure. I would note that with limited stops, the Hiawathas themselves aren’t of much value to anyone north of downtown who doesn’t live within a couple miles of Glenview, unless they actually have no car.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Sure. I would note that with limited stops, the Hiawathas themselves aren’t of much value to anyone north of downtown who doesn’t live within a couple miles of Glenview, unless they actually have no car.

Wow. you're writing off one of Amtrak's most successful routes just because it doesn't stop every five minutes.

 

[Amtrak25]

Sure. I would note that with limited stops, the Hiawathas themselves aren’t of much value to anyone north of downtown who doesn’t live within a couple miles of Glenview, unless they actually have no car.

Would a Morton Grove stop rather than Glenview make more sense ?

 

[TransitTyrant]

When Wisconsin's former governor Walker killed the Madison extension, that same veto killed the Milwaukee - Kenosha commuter service proposal. Wisconsin has also prohibited the creation of regional public transit systems, just to stick with the municipal or county bus ones they have, and disallowed the Milwaukee street car system as basis for or morphing into a light rail interurban into the suburbs.

There are too many Sean Duffy's in the legislature. I can only see Wisconsin adding frequencies on the existing route, not adding not new routes.

The Wisconsin legislature flipped pretty significantly towards the Dems this past election. Republicans still have an edge in both chambers but the gap is much smaller now. A Trump 26 midterm also means Wisconsin Democrats have a better chance of seizing both chambers.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Yes, that’s right. Thanks for the correction. But with up to 26 possible stops between Kenosha and downtown it seems like walking speed. It works OK for the shorter runs as you say and I would expect that’s typical of ridership until the nearer stations such as from Evanston on down when it is a more practical commute time. But what you give up in time you get a cheap fare relative to, well, any other option.

Typically the inbound trains were full by the time they reached the Chicago city limits, which is Evanston. Historically there were only three stops within the City, now 4 (unless I'm forgetting some). Part of the reasoning for extending Metra to Milwaukee was for commuting within Wisconsin as well as general connectivity from the lakefront cities both north and south.

 

[Amtrak25]

There were once 2 interurban railways plus C&NW. Since 1971, there has been nothing.

I am not sure if these Milwaukee - Kenosha trains would have been extended METRA trains from Chicago, or run as a separate service, like Metrolink and Coaster at Oceanside.

There are Wisconsin Coach (Coach USA) buses that connect with Metra, but not sure if Metra trains hold for late southbound buses. When I visited Milwaukee in 2012, I was afraid to chance it, with the next train being 8 hours later.

 

[ryanwc]

Wow. you're writing off one of Amtrak's most successful routes just because it doesn't stop every five minutes.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm saying it's not of much value to a certain large group of Chicagoans. Which is absolutely true.

It's also of great value to others.

I'm just describing the market. There's a reason that a Metra line going all the way to Milwaukee might be more useful to people on the north side or in north suburbs close to Metra than an Amtrak route that they could only catch by heading south into the city or by driving to Glenview.

 

[Amtrak25]

1970 Railpax route makers agonized over to whether to use the more populated and slower C&NW over the MILW. They frowned upon the C&NW in general since it is difficult for such trains to access CUS. There was much criticism at the time over favoring Sturtevant (then in God's country) over Waukegan, Kenosha, and Racine and Glenview over Evanston.

 

[GariYaMoshi]

We are getting ready to take the Borealis to Chicago to meet up with a LD train - has anyone had any issues with bringing carry-on luggage (which meet the Amtrak standards) on the train? I am getting stressed out enough with the potential weather issues on the routes we are taking and want to put my mind at ease on the luggage.

I didn't find the on-line chat on the Amtrak website as helpful as I hoped.

 

[railiner]

1970 Railpax route makers agonized over to whether to use the more populated and slower C&NW over the MILW. They frowned upon the C&NW in general since it is difficult for such trains to access CUS. There was much criticism at the time over favoring Sturtevant (then in God's country) over Waukegan, Kenosha, and Racine and Glenview over Evanston.

Another stop with great potential for Amtrak would have been the Great Lakes Naval training center, especially back in 1971…

 

[Anthony V]

Don't be ridiculous. I'm saying it's not of much value to a certain large group of Chicagoans. Which is absolutely true.

It's also of great value to others.

I'm just describing the market. There's a reason that a Metra line going all the way to Milwaukee might be more useful to people on the north side or in north suburbs close to Metra than an Amtrak route that they could only catch by heading south into the city or by driving to Glenview.

Gurnee would be a good place to add a stop on the Hiawatha service, not only to improve access to Amtrak for those in the northern suburbs closer to the border, but to provide an additional transportation option for the thousands of tourists who visit Six Flags Great America annually. Additionally, Amtrak building a station in Gurnee now would eliminate the need to build a station there in the future if Metra's 20+ year old proposal to extend service on the Milwaukee District North Line north of Rondout comes to fruition.

 

[Goldspike_Railfanning]

Although I did share in your mirthful reaction to this, he did say after this that they are working on adding more cars. Of course, not a one of us will hold our breaths, but given the Borealis's success + the probable desire of Amtrak to hold it up as an example of a "new corridor service that works," I think the odds we'll see a 5th coach in 2025 are at least 50/50, if not 60/40. Will be interested to see how accurate my prediction is!

Unless something has changed, WisDOT should already have an order for six Venture cars and three cab cars. They are likely behind schedule just as the San Joaquins cab cars are finally being manufactured; however, I don’t know anything about the status of the order. sjvrailfan says they may be in production inside, but nothing outside at the facility is for them.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

We are getting ready to take the Borealis to Chicago to meet up with a LD train - has anyone had any issues with bringing carry-on luggage (which meet the Amtrak standards) on the train? I am getting stressed out enough with the potential weather issues on the routes we are taking and want to put my mind at ease on the luggage.

I didn't find the on-line chat on the Amtrak website as helpful as I hoped.

The overhead racks above seats should be spacious enough for most any bags. You'll have easy access to bags throughout the trip. No worries.

 

[Amtrak25]

Unless something has changed, WisDOT should already have an order for six Venture cars and three cab cars. They are likely behind schedule just as the San Joaquins cab cars are finally being manufactured; however, I don’t know anything about the status of the order. sjvrailfan says they may be in production inside, but nothing outside at the facility is for them.

That is for just Hiawatha trains. Minnesota is not a participant in the 4-state Siemens consortium. Whatever Horizon cars pop-up on those trains now could probably be shifted to the Borealis, but the PNW Cascades fleet needs to be shored up first with more Horizon cars after having lost a Talgo set last week. As it is, they occasionally uses buses, 2 of their Horizons were just shipped to Beech Grove, and 2 more are in dead storage in Seattle.

 

[user535733]

...WisDOT should already have an order for six Venture cars and three cab cars.

On 12 Nov 2024, a WisDOT Freight Rail Conference presentation updated that the order is expected in service "early 2026"

 

[NorthShore]

Would a Morton Grove stop rather than Glenview make more sense ?

For some years there was an ever increasing "last mile" small bus service (much of it run by Pace) which had its basis at one of the other Metra stops on this line (I don't immediately recall which one, Deerfield, perhaps, or Lake/Cook Rd) to bring employees commuting to their jobs at major suburban employment centers in the area. If this were still a thing, I could see where such would be a way in which commuters from Milwaukee might get to these jobs, easily, also via the same station.

Morton Grove, as you suggested, would make a reasonable connection to the Pace Pulse Dempster service, which might provide better transit connections, too, though perhaps not be an amazing location for northbound Empire Builder passengers.

 

[NorthShore]

There were once 2 interurban railways plus C&NW. Since 1971, there has been nothing.

I am not sure if these Milwaukee - Kenosha trains would have been extended METRA trains from Chicago, or run as a separate service, like Metrolink and Coaster at Oceanside.

There are Wisconsin Coach (Coach USA) buses that connect with Metra, but not sure if Metra trains hold for late southbound buses. When I visited Milwaukee in 2012, I was afraid to chance it, with the next train being 8 hours later.

The previous proposal was for a separate commuter service in Wisconsin, Milwaukee to Kenosha, with trains that could meet Metra at Kenosha for a trip into Illinois.

 

[NorthShore]

Typically the inbound trains were full by the time they reached the Chicago city limits, which is Evanston. Historically there were only three stops within the City, now 4 (unless I'm forgetting some). Part of the reasoning for extending Metra to Milwaukee was for commuting within Wisconsin as well as general connectivity from the lakefront cities both north and south.

There were, historically, more stations both in Chicago and Evanston that C&NW ultimately abandoned. (Including a cemetery stop at the huge Roseland location, for funeral trains.) Ravenswood, now one of the most heavily trafficked stations on the entire Metra system (with a recently opened super wide inbound platform to prove it) was, decades ago, in an area becoming fairly downtrodden. It had, once, been a vital center of small manufacturing businesses as well as right next to a large Sears store. As such, it served a significant job core. But, with this all in decline, C&NW wanted to eliminate that stop, also. (Really, they wanted to eliminate about all of their in city service, except to the far northwest side, where they still had an exclusive market until what is now known as the Blue Line L got extended past Logan Square to Jefferson Park and O'Hare airport.). North shore residents of means, however, objected, as this (along with Rogers Park) were the stops many of their cleaning ladies used to get from the city to their houses. As such, this early form of reverse commuting saved these in city stations; stops which contributed to the eventual economic revival of the now regentrified neighborhood of Ravenswood, especially.

To tie the post back into the topic of a possible alternate route Chicago - Milwaukee, and what intermediate stops would be most desirable on either the current or another routing, I suppose it wouldn't necessarily require making all stops, if on what is now Union Pacific. Key traffic drivers for commuters could be chosen, with the opportunity to transfer to local service trains or other transit options, once in the Chicago burbs and city. Though, without adequate express tracks along the entire route, it would have to find the right slots to do so. Removal of one express track on the in city embankment (as part of a bridge rebuilding project and track realignment a couple of decades back) raised these concerns from a few well known (but often perceived as outlier) rail advocates. With changes in even local services from downtown oriented to local commuting, that concern about abandoned capacity is now showing itself to have been of importance.