St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[jis]

True, but are there aren't really any extra cars available with reclining seats at the moment, are there? If cars aren't available, I can't think that trying to get an overnight service on the CHI-MSP route would take less than 6 years to start given the need for new equipment.

All I ever hear is that there aren't enough Superliners, which, to my knowledge, are the only coaches Amtrak has with reclining seats suitable for overnight travel, unless I'm missing something. That said, I know that *many* MSP and CHI-based people are rather obsessed with the idea of a night train for a variety of reasons...

A number of Horizon Cars should become available way before anyone can arrange to start an additional frequency at any time in the day between Chicago and TCMC. So yes in principle equipment would be available.

 

[west point]

What no OBS??? That is inexcusable. Does the NEC regionals have any OBS??

Now since the present Borealis schedule is about 8 hours each way using the consists to return is possible with maybe 2 - 3 hour turns at MSP. However, a spare set when finally available from maybe another route will be needed for necessary at the CHI black hole maintenance to maybe turn a consist. Guess you could call it a 1/2 consist as back up for another route out of CHI. The AIROs cannot come soon enough.

What if anything is done now at MSP to the overnight layover train. Maybe just the daily???

 

[Kramerica]

Currently (if on time) the eastbound Empire Builder leaves St. Paul at 8:50 AM, arrives in Chicago at 4:45PM. The Borealis leaves at 11:50 AM and arrives in Chicago at 7:15 PM.

What would the third MSP-CHI train schedule look like? Leaving MSP at say 4:00 PM puts it into CHI at 1:00AM! Or are we talking about a “Second Section” Borealis leaving at 12:20 PM, a half hour after the “First Section”?

First of all, completely forget about the imaginary timetable for the eastbound Empire Builder. That's not reliable for MSP-CHI service and should not be promoted by Amtrak as MSP-CHI service.

For going eastbound, add another morning / early afternoon departure Borealis. The current Borealis could change times if that's what makes sense.
7:10 AM (becomes the 1:05 PM from MKE) and then 11:50 AM (becomes the 5:45 PM from MKE)
9:05 AM (becomes the 3:00 PM from MKE) and then 11:50 AM, or change to 1:40 PM (becomes the 7:35 PM from MKE)
So basically pick two of 7:10 AM, 9:05 AM, 11:50 AM, and 1:40 PM departures. I think 7:10 AM and 11:50 AM are best and go best with the theoretical 8:50 AM Empire Builder departure.

For CHI to MSP, add the 8:25 AM Hiawatha as a Borealis, then keep the existing 11:05 AM Borealis and the 3:05 PM Empire Builder.

All that being said, I hate that the CHI-MSP service is in place of a Hiawatha run, at least for going eastbound. The 5:45 PM regular Hiawatha riders have gotten the shaft on this whole Borealis deal. They've taken a train that nearly always left on time, to a train that over the last month has averaged 19 minutes late departing MKE. That's not how you build ridership on the Hiawatha.

 

[WWW]

Granted - - -
A lot of the recent delay problem has been with the platform track work at Columbus.

That and on the MSP end real rail snafu negotiating the freight yards and mainline tracks
of BNSF CP & UP Division St. WYE just east of SPUD starting as far down line as Newport.
A short delay at Columbus can easily be made up with fast track from RedWing to SPUD.
"BUT THEN" that last mile through the WYE hampered by 100 + car slow freights !
Railroad Monopoly on a grand scale - do not pass the WYE - do not collect the $200 - - -
***WAIT*** ***WAIT*** ***WAIT*** and wait some more snatching delay from ON TIME !
This isn't - wasn't supposed to happen !

 

[MARC Rider]

What no OBS??? That is inexcusable. Does the NEC regionals have any OBS??

OBS on the Northeast Regionals?
HA HA HA HA HA!
Well. there's a cafe car attendant. Plus a conductor and an assistant conductor. Consist of 6-7 coaches, cafe car and business class car.

And at Washington, if it comes in on the low platforms, only a few doors open.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think this discussion is interesting in that most of the talk is about the eastbound (as I called it, "The Rhoda") rather than westbound ('The Mary') timing.

Once the Columbus work is done, how much was that supposed to speed up service? In theory, with $$$, it could be a 110 MPH service (as I recall one or more of the old CHI-MSP services were crack trains with high average speeds). Anyways, that's not happening. But it will be interesting to see ridership when that comes out since it sounds like it's doing pretty well if I'm hearing right.

 

[user535733]

Many millions of dollars of capital improvements, mostly around La Crosse and Winona, required by CPKC for Borealis, are still in development.

CP agreed to allow the service to begin before the improvements were complete, a gesture of goodwill coincidentally around the time CP sought support for the CPKC merger.

The service has begun. Many of the improvements won't be complete until 2025. Some won't even be started until 2025. "The Columbus work" is small beer. There will be construction-related delays for many seasons.

 

[west point]

Now since the present Borealis schedule is about 8 hours each way using the consists to return is possible with maybe 2 - 3 hour turns at MSP. However, a spare set when finally available from maybe another route will be needed for necessary at the CHI black hole maintenance to maybe turn a consist. Guess you could call it a 1/2 consist as back up for another route out of CHI. The AIROs cannot come soon enough.

What if anything is done now at MSP to the overnight layover train. Maybe just the daily???

 

[OmahaRoad]

A number of Horizon Cars should become available way before anyone can arrange to start an additional frequency at any time in the day between Chicago and TCMC. So yes in principle equipment would be available.

I may be missing something, but the Horizon cars don't have seats that recline enough to serve as overnight coaches, do they? No footrests either. The seats may be more comfortable to many than the new Venture seats, but it doesn't seem like they'd be a solution for this hypothetical overnight Borealis!

 

[NW cannonball]

All the floodwater in the Mankato area and points nearby will be hitting the Mississippi in the coming days.
Does anyone here remember how high above the flood stage the Mississippi has to get before Amtrak has to detour their trains to the Wisconsin side of the river?

Actually I don't remember the date. I do remember watching the last loco at the switch near on the CP-BN upstream from Hastings where the BNSF and the CP (now CPKS) diverge. The crew spiked the switch to only go the BNSF, east bank of Mississippi way. One of those flood times, the date escapes me.
The 1965 flood was the biggie. Right now the city of Saint Paul has already closed several main roads near the Mississippi, the flooding is no way near the 1965 peak,
It seems really unlikely to me, a 50-year resident, that the Builder and Boreal will need to try the East Bank BNSF tracks, those are only on a bit higher ground that the CMSP&P tracks on the West Bank past Lake Pepin

 

[NW cannonball]

Living near MSP, the few possible same-day connections to the eastbound, southbound, westbound Amtrak services out of CHI -- mostly useless to me. The Builder, with it's known delay problems, is, now, my most reliable (not very) Amtrak connection to the West Coast. The Delta near-monopoly at the airport here, the near-absence of intercity bus, veh.
Seattle, where some friends and near relatives live, that works, with delays. And cheaper flights from Seattle to the rest of the West Coast and Asia.
Right now, the cheaper flights to Tokyo from MSP go via Montreal. And Montreal is days from MSP on Amtrak.

 

[MARC Rider]

I may be missing something, but the Horizon cars don't have seats that recline enough to serve as overnight coaches, do they? No footrests either. The seats may be more comfortable to many than the new Venture seats, but it doesn't seem like they'd be a solution for this hypothetical overnight Borealis!

It should be pointed out that the overnight 65/66/67 on the NEC uses Amfleet 1 coaches whose seats are almost identical to those of the Horizon coaches.

Not sure how much business an overnight train would get on this route. 65/66/67 do well because they serve multiple cities with populations exceeding a million people, and, indeed, the midpoint stop (NYP) at a ridiculous hour in the middle of the night, is at the "city that never sleeps." The also have some commuter traffic (BAL-WAS, PVD-BOS) on the morning part of the run. Actually, it's even reasonable for people doing PHL-WAS who want to have a very full day in the nation's capital, whether for touring or doing business without having to spend for a hotel room. All of the intermediate stops on the Borealis, except for Milwaukee, are pretty small places.

 

[jis]

I may be missing something, but the Horizon cars don't have seats that recline enough to serve as overnight coaches, do they? No footrests either. The seats may be more comfortable to many than the new Venture seats, but it doesn't seem like they'd be a solution for this hypothetical overnight Borealis!

There are many overnight trains in the world which do not have the best reclining seats. Ultimately the question is mostly how badly is it needed. If it is to be run as a hobby, then of course wait for the best new equipment to become available in 15 years or more, given the developing funding situation, which may become pretty bad pretty quick as it seems. OTOH if it is really a needed service then introduce it as quickly as possible with as little needed funds as possible with whtever equipment you can find in the current inventory. That is the tradeoff.

Remember, both the Pioneer and the Desert Wind started with minimal facilities initially, and it is quite likely they would have survived as a minimal service train. It is the shortage of fancy equipment needed to have run through cars on the California Zephyr that did them in. So in order to cater to the segment that wanted to run through to east of Salt Lake City without a change of trains, in effect all service was lost between Salt Lake City and Los Angeles and Salt Lake City and Portland/Seattle.

Personally I think it is better to have a service in place without all the bells and whistles and even with cross platform change of trains sooner rather than waiting for perfection later, perhaps never.

 

[user535733]

What if anything is done now at MSP to the overnight layover train. Maybe just the daily???

MSP is owned by Ramsey County (not Amtrak), and what can be done is defined by one of several contracts between them. Worth a read. Amtrak is very constrained at that location: Access, storage, and permitted uses are all very limited.

Example:

2) Except in an emergency, Amtrak engine maintenance, fueling, or other major repairs for
a stored Amtrak train will not be conducted on the Layover Track. Prior to emergency
repairs on the Layover Track Amtrak shall provide RCRRA with the earliest possible
advance written notice. Said notice shall be given to RCRRA’s Director of Property
Management (address, telephone and email). For purpose of this notification, email
notification shall be deemed written notice.

 

[Amtrak25]

Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other one night trains (Eagle, CofNO, Cardinal, Montrealer, North Star, Spirit of Cal), once HEP'd had "long distance" Amfleet-1 - 60 seaters with leg rests, which are now NEC Business class cars with the leg rests yanked off.

8 Horizon cars were converted to long distance seating for Pennsylvanian and Three Rivers service when they were freight trains. I rode them; they were just fine. They have since been converted and renumbered back to the way they were. The 2+1 seating in the Horizon & Amfleet-1 Business- Dinettes have a somewhat shorter seat pitch than that.

Pennsylvanian, Palmetto, and Adirondack are solid Amfleet-2 as day trains, yet Amtrak refuses to swap so much as one of those coaches onto the 65/66, as well the inexcusable lack of a Viewliner-I sleeper and a baggage car, differing Virginia destinations make it more difficult. The LD coach, sleeper, and baggage car can be cut/added at DC with the locomotive.

So they can have a comfortable overnight CHI-St Paul service with some 1980's problem solving and customer service acumen, which hapless Amtrak now totally lacks.

 

[OmahaRoad]

There are many overnight trains in the world which do not have the best reclining seats. Ultimately the question is mostly how badly is it needed. If it is to be run as a hobby, then of course wait for the best new equipment to become available in 15 years or more, given the developing funding situation, which may become pretty bad pretty quick as it seems. OTOH if it is really a needed service then introduce it as quickly as possible with as little needed funds as possible with whtever equipment you can find in the current inventory. That is the tradeoff.

Remember, both the Pioneer and the Desert Wind started with minimal facilities initially, and it is quite likely they would have survived as a minimal service train. It is the shortage of fancy equipment that did them in.

Personally I think it is better to have a service in place without all the bells and whistles sooner rather than waiting for perfection later, perhaps never.

All very good points, and well taken. Perhaps my concern was prompted by the new Borealis rider who posted the thread about how much she hated the seats even as a day train, compared to the Empire Builder. I can imagine a ton of complaining about the accommodations should regular Horizon cars be used on an overnight MSP-CHI service...but focusing on the complainers and "this isn't Europe/China/Japan quality" won't get me very far, I admit. I agree with you on sooner being better than hopes for later perfection. Sigh!

Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other one night trains (Eagle, CofNO, Cardinal, Montrealer, North Star, Spirit of Cal)), once HEP'd had "long distance" Amfleet-1 - 60 seaters with leg rests, which are now NEC Business class cars with the leg rests yanked off.

8 Horizon cars were converted to long distance seating for Pennsylvanian and Three Rivers service when they were freight trains. I rode them; they were just fine. They have since been converted and renumbered back to the way they were. The 2+1 seating in the Horizon & Amfleet-1 Business- Dinettes have a somewhat shorter seat pitch than that.

Pennsylvanian, Palmetto, and Adirondack are solid Amfleet-2 as day trains, yet Amtrak refuses to swap so much as one of those coaches onto the 65/66, as well the inexcusable lack of a Viewliner-I sleeper and a baggage car, differing Viriginia destinations make it more difficult. The LD coach, sleeper, and baggage car can be cut/added at DC wit the locomotive.

So they can have a comfortable overnight CHI-St Paul service with some 1980's problem solving and customer service acumen, which hapless Amtrak now totally lacks.

Very interesting, Amtrak25. I'm still (relatively) new to the nitty-gritty details of the Amtrak world compared to you experts, so I sincerely appreciate the history, context, and general knowledge sharing. It's fascinating that Amtrak used to have "long distance" Amfleet-1 cars, as well as Horizon cars converted to long distance seating. I wonder how hard it would be to convert them back, but given your correct description of Amtrak being hapless, it seems like that would (probably) never happen.

I find Amfleet-2 very comfortable for long trips, having used the Palmetto, along with the Silver Star up to the Northeast from NC. I hate the Amfleet-1 seats on the Carolinian, though--not nearly enough space for such a long trip, especially when going all the way to NYC. It is too bad that Amtrak won't do as you said for the 65/66, at least with adding an Amfleet-2 coach if not a Viewliner.

I guess I won't hold my breath but will hope that Amtrak management can eventually get more creative. SO frustrating. I mean, it's obvious, but if they could get a MSP-CHI night train going with the above suitable rolling stock, it would probably be a sold-out train most days...and yet the odds this will ever happen before I'm as old as my parents are now is sadly low.

 

[Harmon Shay]

If the New Orleans-Mobile service doesn't happen, there should be, by my unofficial figuring, at least seven Horizon coaches available for the Borealis or whatever. If it does happen, then they'll probably either have to have a couple of shorter Chicago corridor trains to add to the Borealises or pull those few Horizons that went east recently for the Downeasters back (does anyone know exactly how many were sent?). Out here in the Seattle area, we certainly have no Horizon coaches to spare as far as the Cascades are concerned.

 

[Amtrak25]

When the Desert Wind went Superliner, its LD Amfleet-1 cars and the 10-6 Heritage sleeper became the Spirit of California, (which quickly failed). When the San Diegans went Horizon, those Amfleet-1 were distributed among each train set to become their Business class.

Converting a Hiawatha to the Borealis cut coach capacity on that frequency by 20% (plus 15 BC seats), cutting CHI-MILW capacity from 35 to 34 coach lines (3%) per day. That is in addition to the slashing of consists from 6 cars to 5, 17%, from pre-pandemic.

They are also wasting a 3rd 5-car train set on Hiawatha service by refusing to split / merge Borealis with Hiawatha like VIA Rail does at Brockville ("J" train). Last week for a few days, one consist was down to 3 cars.

As for Seattle, doesn't Sounder have 25 commuter cars stashed in storage ? Why not put one in each Cascade consist with a redued fare ?

 

[Steve Manfred]

Actually I don't remember the date. I do remember watching the last loco at the switch near on the CP-BN upstream from Hastings where the BNSF and the CP (now CPKS) diverge. The crew spiked the switch to only go the BNSF, east bank of Mississippi way. One of those flood times, the date escapes me.
The 1965 flood was the biggie. Right now the city of Saint Paul has already closed several main roads near the Mississippi, the flooding is no way near the 1965 peak,
It seems really unlikely to me, a 50-year resident, that the Builder and Boreal will need to try the East Bank BNSF tracks, those are only on a bit higher ground that the CMSP&P tracks on the West Bank past Lake Pepin

I remember it happening in a spring after major winter melt, but I can't recall what year. Something like 15 years ago, give or take a few years. I just don't remember what the threshold water level is that makes it necessary. I think the weak point was somewhere between Red Wing and Winona that made the detour needed.

 

[railiner]

I remember it happening in a spring after major winter melt, but I can't recall what year. Something like 15 years ago, give or take a few years. I just don't remember what the threshold water level is that makes it necessary. I think the weak point was somewhere between Red Wing and Winona that made the detour needed.

I recall a couple of Spring flood seasons in the late ‘60’s, where the “opposite” occurred…
The Burlington side of the Upper Mississippi was flooded (can’t recall exactly where), and the Burlington Route Twin Cities trains were shut down. To accommodate NP and GN passengers, the Milwaukee Road ran a special “make-up” train between Chicago and St.Paul, at around the time the Empire Builder/North Coast Limited normally ran…

 

[prech786]

First of all, completely forget about the imaginary timetable for the eastbound Empire Builder. That's not reliable for MSP-CHI service and should not be promoted by Amtrak as MSP-CHI service.

For going eastbound, add another morning / early afternoon departure Borealis. The current Borealis could change times if that's what makes sense.
7:10 AM (becomes the 1:05 PM from MKE) and then 11:50 AM (becomes the 5:45 PM from MKE)
9:05 AM (becomes the 3:00 PM from MKE) and then 11:50 AM, or change to 1:40 PM (becomes the 7:35 PM from MKE)
So basically pick two of 7:10 AM, 9:05 AM, 11:50 AM, and 1:40 PM departures. I think 7:10 AM and 11:50 AM are best and go best with the theoretical 8:50 AM Empire Builder departure.

For CHI to MSP, add the 8:25 AM Hiawatha as a Borealis, then keep the existing 11:05 AM Borealis and the 3:05 PM Empire Builder.

All that being said, I hate that the CHI-MSP service is in place of a Hiawatha run, at least for going eastbound. The 5:45 PM regular Hiawatha riders have gotten the shaft on this whole Borealis deal. They've taken a train that nearly always left on time, to a train that over the last month has averaged 19 minutes late departing MKE. That's not how you build ridership on the Hiawatha.

Currently (if on time, LOL) the eastbound Empire Builder leaves St. Paul at 8:50 AM, arrives in Chicago at 4:45PM. The Borealis leaves at 11:50 AM and arrives in Chicago at 7:15 PM.

The eastbound Empire Builder can be as much as 5-8 late arriving at MSP. This is well after the Borealis leaves.

Upon learning of a major delay, I wonder how many EB passengers waiting at SPUD have tried to change to the Borealis at the last minute. The EB currently can be as much as 3X-4X more expensive (coach) than the Borealis over this route, $41 vs. $179 OW. How is that handled by Amtrak, refunds, vouchers?

Over time, if numbers of “bailing” Empire Builder passengers are high enough one wonders how this will affect the “load factor” numbers of the Borealis? Over a years time the numbers of "extra" Borealis loadings at SPUD could look significant. How will this be factored into the decision for more cars or a second Borealis train?

 

[WWW]

There are a lot of areas on the Minnesota side that are encroached by floods - but the Mississippi river is so
W-I-D-E *** it takes a heck of lot water to rise to the flood state. The tracks are/were laid for the most part on
fabricated wetland levies - there are similar situations on the Wisconsin side north of Trempealeau (south of MN Winona).

The question always remains with water on the tracks if the roadbed is secure to support the train weight !

The rerouting of passenger trains on the Wisconsin has been done before (circa ?) - the complication of this
returning to the Milwaukee tracks at La Crosse - - -
Reference Google Map (Grand Crossing under Gillette St overpass)

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8452061,-91.2291935,265m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

Zooom the image OUT and follow the tracks to see how this works - - -
At the Grand Crossing if you could turn left to Milwaukee you would miss the Depot/Station therefore that
transit to the only WYE to turn the train around.
The trains having to cross the river to the La Crescent side to WYE the train to correct the direction of travel.

Railroad history is an interesting study - - -

*** W-I-D-E think Lake Pepin

 

[WWW]

Actually I don't remember the date. I do remember watching the last loco at the switch near on the CP-BN upstream from Hastings where the BNSF and the CP (now CPKS) diverge. The crew spiked the switch to only go the BNSF, east bank of Mississippi way. One of those flood times, the date escapes me.
The 1965 flood was the biggie. Right now the city of Saint Paul has already closed several main roads near the Mississippi, the flooding is no way near the 1965 peak,
It seems really unlikely to me, a 50-year resident, that the Builder and Boreal will need to try the East Bank BNSF tracks, those are only on a bit higher ground that the CMSP&P tracks on the West Bank past Lake Pepin

The 1965 flood was the biggie. Right now the city of Saint Paul has already closed several main roads near the Mississippi, the flooding is no way near the 1965 peak,

Presently Shepard and Warner roads (riverside right in front of SPUD are under water and of course CLOSED !
View the SPUD train Cam #1 to see this:

https://www.uniondepot.org/train-cams/

 

[SubwayNut]

Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other one night trains (Eagle, CofNO, Cardinal, Montrealer, North Star, Spirit of Cal), once HEP'd had "long distance" Amfleet-1 - 60 seaters with leg rests, which are now NEC Business class cars with the leg rests yanked off.

When I took the Lake Shore Limited on Monday night SDY to SOB one of the two 449 coaches was an Amfleet I Buissiness class coach with half the seats facing backwards. I was originally asked to sit there (backwards) and right after boarding I went into the Amfleet II coach, saw some empty sets of seats, asked my attendant if I could sit there instead and much to my surprise the attendant said yes with me making it very clear I would rather have a seatmate with the window seat in an Amfleet II than two seats to myself in the Amfleet I. The Lake Shore had left Boston over two hours late I assume the Amfleet II was bad ordered and Boston lacks any Amfleet II spares.

Even with the Amfleet IIs end doors having some issues with opening and closing, I slept surprisingly well - it helped a lot I avoided a seat mate the whole trip - and much better than I would have in the Amfleet I Buissiness Class car. The extra legroom and legrests are clutch

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

My impression among ridership MSP-MKE on the seventh & eighth days of initial operation was a noticeable contingent of those new to Amtrak that were unaware of cafe car seating policies. Crew announcements were notable for how frequently riders were told the cafe attendant couldn't store nor heat their food brought onboard. Lots of riders on at MSP talking amongst themselves about how green they were to train travel. Many of those folks disembarked at Winona, suggesting some were merely getting their feet wet.

The ridership that went all the way to CUS that chose 1333 for their return travel option would have had to contend with the dismal coach waiting area. On my return trip, there were a lot of people getting directions from station staff about where to board. And, oh... The body odor stench of the coach waiting area was immense. CUS' improvements better include HVAC improvements lest 1333 lose ridership due to how it resembles the Greyhound terminal, all senses considered. I don't know if the low cost can make up enough for the conditions in Chicago to convince Twin Cities folks not to bail out with Sun Country for the cheap flight home from ORD.

Many new riders had to be shooed out of the cafe that intended to utilize it as an observation car. Amtrak could do well to design a better cafe layout for regional routes' marketability, as there's a desire for such that seems to be written out of most modest future planning scenarios. Growing ridership just might depend on listening to such desires, but upper midwesterners are largely too passive at speaking their minds and politicians too misfocused to care. At least we got CPKC to get onboard with one more round trip despite the project's current status...

I'd personally like to see a 6am departure from each endpoint along with a 2:30 MSP trip added. I'd be able to sleep in Amfleet/Horizon seats, but I lament the loss of slumbercoaches for these routes on overnight runs.