Talgo bids to sell WI trainsets to MI

[NE933]

Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?

 

[neroden]

or perhaps they've found a facility in Michigan they think they could develop.

There are certainly enough disused factories in Michigan. Multiple *railroad maintenance shops*, even.

 

[neroden]

How on earth would you GET to Traverse City by rail, on a passenger train?

The intact tracks run Traverse City - Cadillac - Clare - Mt. Pleasant - Alma - Owosso - Durand. Then Holly-Pontiac-Detroit or Howell-Ann Arbor.
There were formerly two (count them, two) routes from Grand Rapids to Traverse City, but I think the ROW is long gone on both of them. Probably built on.

 

[battalion51]

Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?

I don't doubt the offer has been extended, the question is whether they're interested. With seven sets presently online and five spare cars there's the question of whether the corridor can handle additional frequencies to justify the cost. And that's always a complicated question when you get the host railroads and politicians involved. This is the logical solution, but someone's got to pay.

Another (albeit unlikely) possibility is the folks at FEC/All Aboard Florida.

 

[andersone]

RFP ? isn't that the stop 40 miles east of Milwaukee?

 

[afigg]

Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?

I don't doubt the offer has been extended, the question is whether they're interested. With seven sets presently online and five spare cars there's the question of whether the corridor can handle additional frequencies to justify the cost. And that's always a complicated question when you get the host railroads and politicians involved. This is the logical solution, but someone's got to pay.
Another (albeit unlikely) possibility is the folks at FEC/All Aboard Florida.

The Cascades route can't additional daily frequencies until at least 2017. IIRC, Washington State DOT has plans to acquire an additional Talgo train set in the future, but I don't recall the time frame. Even if WSDOT were to purchase the Wisconsin Talgos in a few years, they might have to pay for them with only state money. I am not clear on how close the 4 Talgos that were assembled in WI come to meeting the Federal Buy American requirements. If the 2 trainsets do not, then WSDOT would have to get a waiver to purchase them if any federal funding is used to pay for them.
All Aboard Florida will be building stations with 800' to 1000' long high level platforms, so they will not be interested in the Talgos. Besides AAF will need more than 2 trainsets.

 

[pere_michel]

The Talgos now in service on the Cascades. Weren't they bought with federal stimulus money? Would they have met buy America requirements or was the stimulus money different?

Either way, I agree that nothing will happen until the legal system tells us who owns these train sets. Currently there are two different claims working their way through the system and it could be a very long time until both are completed. Talgo has a claim in front of the State Claims Board and another in Dane County Circuit Court. The circuit court lawsuit is for possession of the train sets, if my memory is correct, and the parties were supposed to have motion hearing on March 31. I have no idea if the hearing actually took place. The State Claims Board claim is then for the rest of the contract, some $65 million dollars.

 

[Eric S]

The 2 Talgo trainsets purchased by OR do meet federal Buy America requirements, as they were purchased using federal funds. The 2 sets "purchased" by WI do not meet the requirements, as they were purchased using state funds. At a WisARP meeting a couple of years ago, a Talgo spokesperson said the 2 WI sets were "very close" to meeting Buy America requirements, but as they were not required to meet them and those were the first two trainsets produced, with the OR sets following, no attempt was made to completely meet the requirements. The spokesperson did not state specifically what was different, nor what would likely be required to alter them to comply.

 

[cirdan]

The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.

But I guess that's the cost of building from scratch.

How difficult would it be to maintain a talgo in an extisting maintenance facility?

 

[jis]

Is there any maintenance facility with such spare capacity out there in Chicago or Michigan? If you have to covnert a disused factory or something like that, it is as good as building a facility from scratch.

 

[PerRock]

Here are the MDOT RFPs & such. I haven't read it but am told Talgo is mentioned in QA2.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_posted_449105_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA1_451373_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA2_451374_7.pdf
http://www.mich.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA3_451662_7.pdf
http://www.michiganbids.net/bid-opportunities/2014/03/15/5496357-Specialty-Services-for-PurchaseLease-of-Intercity-Rail.html

peter

 

[SarahZ]

The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?

If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.

 

[PerRock]

The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?

If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.

The BiLevel order is brand new cars similar to the current Amtrak California cars, for use on lines like the Wolveriene, etc. The MiTrain is currently using (I say using...) ex-Metra Galley cars that were, and still is, owned by Great Lakes Central. Having not read thru all the papers I posted, I'm not really sure what they want to use the Talgos for.

peter

 

[afigg]

The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?

If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.

The bi-level cars coming in 2016 and 2017 are the from of the order of 130 corridor bi-levels to be built by Nippon-Sharyo.
What MI DOT is looking for here are existing 110 mph capable rail cars which have restooms, are ADA compliant, Amtrak certified etc to run until 2017? To replace the Horizons? Ok, besides cars with commuter seating, where the heck would they find cars ready to go without a major rebuild? Besides the 2 Talgo trainsets? Which of course, present maintenance support and cost issues?

My initial reaction to what I see so far in the RFP is that MI DOT is very unhappy with the reliability and costs of the Horizons. When the new bi-levels arrive in 2016 and 2017, the states may seek someone else to maintain them rather than the Amtrak Chicago shop.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Sarah: METRA style cars are referred to generally as 'Gallery' cars. Bi-Level generally implies a full width floor. That being said, some Chicago gallery cars were equipped for intercity service including a few dining cars. Some of those were conveyed to Amtrak who painted them in Phase I and II (I don't know about three) and were used for Midwest routes on Amtrak prior to the arrival of the Amfleets. One of them ran from... Milwaukee I think to Saint Louis through Chocagp and offered full service dining.

 

[SarahZ]

Sarah: METRA style cars are referred to generally as 'Gallery' cars. Bi-Level generally implies a full width floor. That being said, some Chicago gallery cars were equipped for intercity service including a few dining cars. Some of those were conveyed to Amtrak who painted them in Phase I and II (I don't know about three) and were used for Midwest routes on Amtrak prior to the arrival of the Amfleets. One of them ran from... Milwaukee I think to Saint Louis through Chicago and offered full service dining.

Thank you. Now I can use the proper terms. Also, knowing that "bi-level" has a full width floor answers my original question and makes it rather moot.

Thanks to the others who answered, as well.

 

[Ryan]

The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?

If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.

The BiLevel order is brand new cars similar to the current Amtrak California cars, for use on lines like the Wolveriene, etc. The MiTrain is currently using (I say using...) ex-Metra Galley cars that were, and still is, owned by Great Lakes Central. Having not read thru all the papers I posted, I'm not really sure what they want to use the Talgos for.

peter

Reading the first document, the immediate takeaway is that they want to dump the Amtrak-provided equipment and replace it with the equipment they obtain until the bi-level cars are built. The schedule indicates entry into revenue service on 8 Sep 2014 with the lease to expire in 2017.

They want cars that are ready to roll NOW, either built or overhauled within the last 5 years.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I bet they also want to drop Chicago Yards. The Horizons were built for California climates. They were never meant for Midwest service.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Reading the first document, the immediate takeaway is that they want to dump the Amtrak-provided equipment and replace it with the equipment they obtain until the bi-level cars are built. The schedule indicates entry into revenue service on 8 Sep 2014 with the lease to expire in 2017.They want cars that are ready to roll NOW, either built or overhauled within the last 5 years.

Wow go big or go home.

Maybe Sunrail got a train set or two they can spare. MI asking a bit too much. Even if someone can fill this request the amount of funds it will require....

 

[Ryan]

I'm not sure that there is equipment anywhere that would satisfy this.

The MI folks may know this and this may just be a public shot across the bow towards Amtrak to get their stuff together.

 

[Steve4031]

Interesting opportunity for talgo to demonstrate the reliability of their equipment in extreme conditions.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

What's wrong with the cars Amtrak has that mi can't wait for the bilevels other then freezing up in winter.

 

[Eric S]

My take-away from a quick reading of those documents is that Talgo might be the only entity that could meet the requirements (at least two trainsets, available for service Sep 2014 through Dec 2017), if of course Talgo is able to use those 2 trainsets (i.e., they aren't still tied up because of litigation in WI). However, the need to do maintenance in Pontiac, MI, makes me question whether any entity, Talgo included, could actually meet the requirements.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I suspect the big problem is less the cars and more Chicago yards.

 

[jis]

Some more on this...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/new-unused-talgo-trains-in-milwaukee-could-find-a-new-home-b99244919z1-255101661.html