Talgo bids to sell WI trainsets to MI

[MikefromCrete]

It seems that Talgo provides a service tech, at least initially, to ride on the trains. As far as a special maintenance facility, well maybe that was an oversell on the Wisconsin project. Amtrak does have a facility at Brighton Park in Chicago that used to be used as a maintenance base for the turbos, so perhaps that can be rehabbed for Talgo's purposes.

Corridor Capital was trying to sell or lease some old Santa Fe hi-levels to Michigan, but since these cars in their present condition aren't even ADA compliant, that was probably a difficult sell.

Looking forward to having these trains operational in the midwest. With the new double=deck cars on the way in a couple years, and the Illinois and Michigan 110-mhp operations, corridor traffic should see some real improvements. I hope Talgo is able to get all its money from Wisconsin and the voters in Wisconsin dispatch Walker and his presidential ambitions.

 

[afigg]

4 hours Chicago to Detroit! I'll believe it when I ride it. That said, it's a very good goal to have.

A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:

"Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."

The currently funded improvements are expect to result in roughly 4:30 to 4:45 Chicago to Detroit trip times. To get the trip time down to 4 hours will require the proposed South of the Lake dedicated passenger track route from Chicago to Porter to be built and some extended double track segments in MI. Which will take a lot more money which in turn will need federal funding to be turned on again for intercity passenger rail. So it is likely to be some time before there is a 4 hour CHI-DET trip time in the schedule. But by sometime in 2017, the current trip times and reliability should be notably improved.

As for the Horizons, a set for the Michigan services could be completely refurbished for a lot less than the $58 million to be spent acquiring the 2 Talgo trainsets. But with new bi-level cars on the way and the opportunity to get 2 new shiny trainsets to run in the near term, understandable why the state nor the FRA is interested in paying to refurb Horizon cars. New trainsets will help sell the Wolverine service while waiting for the bi-level equipment.

From the article, I get the impression that MI DOT plans to keep the Talgos even after the new bi-level cars arrive. Or least, that is the public plan. With the Midwest now slated to get 122 bi-level cars, also retaining the Talgos would provide an even greater increase in capacity for the Midwest corridor services and ability to pursue service expansion options.

However, $58 million would pay for double tracking of maybe 15-20 miles of the Porter-Dearborn route. So there are tradeoffs in spending the money on buying the Talgo trainsets.

 

[rrdude]

I bet Michigan keeps them for the Pere Marquette, or Blue Water, either way, it's a BIG WIN for Michigan train riders.........

 

[PaulM]

A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:

"Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."

Actually if you re-read that... it's not hyperbole from the newspaper, it's from the Michigan Department of Transportation.
I actually think it's a pretty fair criticism of the Horizon cars. Remember this is the most visible part of the train experience for passengers... and the Horizon experience is pretty underwhelming. The Talgo's will be a huge upgrade in terms of passenger experience.

"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

I do have one question about Talgos. If they are anything like the Cascade's version, there's no place for folding bikes. The luggage racks at the end of the coaches are tiny. Not a problem in WA because they have baggage cars with bike racks.

I was about to say full size bikes would have the same problem. But then it's only Illinois and Missouri that have roll-on, roll-off bike service.

 

[bretton88]

A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:

"Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."

Actually if you re-read that... it's not hyperbole from the newspaper, it's from the Michigan Department of Transportation.
I actually think it's a pretty fair criticism of the Horizon cars. Remember this is the most visible part of the train experience for passengers... and the Horizon experience is pretty underwhelming. The Talgo's will be a huge upgrade in terms of passenger experience.

"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

I do have one question about Talgos. If they are anything like the Cascade's version, there's no place for folding bikes. The luggage racks at the end of the coaches are tiny. Not a problem in WA because they have baggage cars with bike racks.

I was about to say full size bikes would have the same problem. But then it's only Illinois and Missouri that have roll-on, roll-off bike service.

The Talgo baggage cars in these new sets have 10 full bike racks in the baggage car, so it shouldn't be a problem

 

[rickycourtney]

"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

True, any train service is better than no train service. I was comparing the Michigan service to peers like California, Washington and Oregon. Compared to the cars used on those services, the Horizon cars are underwhelming. That's why the folks along the San Joaquin corridor in Central California fought against getting the Comet/Horizon cars. I'm happy to see Michigan fighting to get better equipment for passengers.
On that note, I'm curious to see if Michigan will "take one for the team" and agree to take delivery of their new bi-level cars last. Passengers will be getting a better experience on these Talgo cars in the interim so there will be less pressure to get new equipment in service in Michigan. I'm sure there will be various political reasons for who gets what, when... but it would be nice to spread the wealth around.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

True, any train service is better than no train service. I was comparing the Michigan service to peers like California, Washington and Oregon. Compared to the cars used on those services, the Horizon cars are underwhelming. That's why the folks along the San Joaquin corridor in Central California fought against getting the Comet/Horizon cars. I'm happy to see Michigan fighting to get better equipment for passengers.
On that note, I'm curious to see if Michigan will "take one for the team" and agree to take delivery of their new bi-level cars last. Passengers will be getting a better experience on these Talgo cars in the interim so there will be less pressure to get new equipment in service in Michigan. I'm sure there will be various political reasons for who gets what, when... but it would be nice to spread the wealth around.

Seems equally likely that Michigan citizens, having tasted something better, will be hungrier for more and better trains. That could mean a second Pere Marquette, as rumored, or a second Blue Water, as well as added frequencies on the Wolverines. I suspect Michigan's appetite will be restrained largely by a shortage of rush hour slots in and out of Chicago Union Station, until Metra can get out of the way.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The "Comet" is actually a converted Arrow, a much nicer car. Nicer than the Surfliners certainly.

 

[rrdude]

The "Comet" is actually a converted Arrow, a much nicer car. Nicer than the Surfliners certainly.

On what planet is a Comet/Arrow coach nicer than a Surfliner coach?

 

[jis]

I am confused. Which Comet is a converted Arrow. Yes the Comarrows (Arrows converted to single level trailer commuter cars) form the basis of the California single level cars that they acquired from NJT. But the NJT Comets having nothing to do with Arrows in design or otherwise.

 

[PerRock]

I thought Horizons were converted Comets; and that the Arrows were different. According to Wikipedia, the Arrows are derived from the Silverliners, not the Comets.

peter

 

[SubwayNut]

An explanation, the Horizons were based on the Comet design, the CommArrows California have, were once Arrows, and became a unique brand of Comet when de-powered.

Horizons (based on NJT Comets, and MTA Metro-North Shoreliners)

NJT Calls any non-motorized car a Comet (Including De-motorized former MU Arrow Cars), this generation is similar to a Horizon (without the center door a Comet IV, Comet IIIs and earlier don't have center doors, the car beyond this one):

Metro North Calls them Shoreliners (same situation, older cars no center doors, newer cars have the center doors, they mix and match):

Horizon cars are the same cars (except without Center doors and dutch doors instead of automatic doors):

 

[SubwayNut]

The California Commarrow Cars

This is a Comet III, NJT's only current MU electric cars:

The Comet Is were based on this design and depowered, this ones running in NJT service

The same type of car now in California Service:

 

[Steve4031]

Thank you. That was a helpful explanation of the cars involved in this discussion.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I am confused. Which Comet is a converted Arrow. Yes the Comarrows (Arrows converted to single level trailer commuter cars) form the basis of the California single level cars that they acquired from NJT. But the NJT Comets having nothing to do with Arrows in design or otherwise.

The cars on the San Joaquin single level trains are comet IBs which are depowered Arrows. Arrows are superior to Surfliners because I say so.

 

[Rob Creighton]

A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:

"Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."

Actually if you re-read that... it's not hyperbole from the newspaper, it's from the Michigan Department of Transportation.
I actually think it's a pretty fair criticism of the Horizon cars. Remember this is the most visible part of the train experience for passengers... and the Horizon experience is pretty underwhelming. The Talgo's will be a huge upgrade in terms of passenger experience.

"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

I do have one question about Talgos. If they are anything like the Cascade's version, there's no place for folding bikes. The luggage racks at the end of the coaches are tiny. Not a problem in WA because they have baggage cars with bike racks.

I was about to say full size bikes would have the same problem. But then it's only Illinois and Missouri that have roll-on, roll-off bike service.

I think what bothered me about the quote that the Detroit News picked up from the Michigan DOT is it makes the trains sound unattractive or uncomfortable to ride. If someone is generally unaware of what riding the train is like and sees that part of the article... They might very well opt to get to where they're going by another mode of transportation. I'm not saying the Horizons are my favorite Amtrak coaches to ride in... they're not. But I don't think someone should skip taking the train over it because they're concerned about spending six hours in an uncomfortable tin can of a coach. In my opinion it's not a significantly different experience than riding in other types of Amtrak coaches for 4 to 6 hours.

That's not saying Michigan and Amtrak shouldn't get new trains with warm water in the bathrooms, more pleasant lighting, and a decor that's nicer. I think every time an order for equipment is placed that's what Amtrak should strive for... I think the Michigan DOT... might have been a little more careful to not make the current trains sound uncomfortable. Just my opinion.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm not a big fan of Horizons either so when I ride the Wolverine (and the Lincoln/River Runner Route) its worth the Upgrade to Business Class for the nice 2x1 Faux Leather Seats!!

As one who likes the Talgos on the Cascades, I'd ride Coach when they go into Michigan Service!

 

[Steve4031]

I'll be making points runs when they operate the targets. I wonder how hard it will be to get on the inaugural run.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

1st run might be hard to do. If they run in pool service it's pot luck, if MiDOT commits to use them on a certain run, much easier.

I am more interest in the Maintance. How and where are the going to be service. I guess a long tent will do, but near Chicago I see a problem with MiDOT funds going to another state, never mind the Chicago yard space and employee issues.

Don't forget the Downeast can only be supply/resupplied in Maine not Boston. More of a Union issue at in Boston I was told.

Best bet is to limited the time of the equipment in Chicago.

 

[Steve4031]

I think they could do something near Pontiac.

 

[tommylicious]

what do these new talgo cars look like?

 

[PerRock]

what do these new talgo cars look like?

Like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Wisconsin+Talgo&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=6u2&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4-0ZVPuZH8qnyAS-8ILYBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1244&bih=825

peter

 

[SarahZ]

I think they could do something near Pontiac.

I would love to see them open a maintenance facility near Detroit, where there is a large pool of unemployed, qualified machinists, welders, etc, but I believe someone mentioned it would cost X amount of money to open and operate it, and we aren't sure if Michigan is willing to put the money into it when there is already a maintenance facility in Chicago.

That said, Governor Snyder campaigned on job creation and has mentioned that the track upgrades will (hopefully) attract new business to the Detroit area, as the commute time to/from Chicago will be greatly reduced, so who knows? I can easily see him championing a maintenance facility in the Detroit area.

 

[SarahZ]

Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.

Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.

The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.

Here it is.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sorry that story is about Wisconsin, while the cost may be the same, It is a different state. The big issues is long term, when or if the bilevel equipment shows up, what are they going to do.

Is Talgo going try to get all the state services?

Can MiDot sell the bilevel equipment to another state?

Talk about issues. Buying two set of equipment that may not be needed in 5 years.