Texas High Speed Rail

[Touchdowntom9]

1. CAHSR is your standard bearer for a High Speed Rail project? Liberal Californians have cooled on the project and they are footing the bill.

2. Shocked, really shocked they won the Texas Supreme Court ruling, but it may be a moot point anyway. Time for Texas Central to show the money. Wasn't that the reason for going with JNR?

Despite the ruling got a feeling we have seen the last of Texas Central. I would love to be wrong.

If Brightline's Orlando extension and Brightline West land on their feet, I would bet these guys are going to look hard at this for their next opportunity. They have the team and expertise to build this unlike anyone else in the US. Could be as close to a plug and play situation for Brightline if they pick up where TC left off.

 

[frequentflyer]

If Brightline's Orlando extension and Brightline West land on their feet, I would bet these guys are going to look hard at this for their next opportunity. They have the team and expertise to build this unlike anyone else in the US. Could be as close to a plug and play situation for Brightline if they pick up where TC left off.

Good point. Who says the line has to be electrified. CAHSR is apparently holding off catenary and going Hydrogen FLIRT trains. No reason why a capable company like Brightline could not resurrect the project and drastically cut costs.

 

[joelkfla]

Good point. Who says the line has to be electrified. CAHSR is apparently holding off catenary and going Hydrogen FLIRT trains. No reason why a capable company like Brightline could not resurrect the project and drastically cut costs.

I thought it was the existing regional trains that were FLIRTing with hydrogen, not CAHSR.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Good point. Who says the line has to be electrified. CAHSR is apparently holding off catenary and going Hydrogen FLIRT trains. No reason why a capable company like Brightline could not resurrect the project and drastically cut costs.

Agreed--you don't need this train to hit 200mph to be a success. The Shinkansen wasnt built in one sweet, it was built and gradually upgraded. If you ran it using dual mode Chargers (like Amtrak just ordered) and ran it at 125mph for the entire route (but keeping the route designed for high speed turns), you would need much less capital to get that project started and could add electrification later on once you are having success. If you can beat a car by an 1.5 hours on a 3.5 hour drive, you have yourself a market for a product.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

CAHSR is apparently holding off catenary and going Hydrogen FLIRT trains.

I was only able to find one test order of four hydrogen trains with an 80MPH speed limit and no obvious connection to CAHSR.

No reason why a capable company like Brightline could not resurrect the project and drastically cut costs.

Maybe we should wait for Brightline to turn a profit or build something outside of Florida before we start awarding them unproven accolades.

The Shinkansen wasnt built in one sweet, it was built and gradually upgraded. If you ran it using dual mode Chargers (like Amtrak just ordered) and ran it at 125mph for the entire route (but keeping the route designed for high speed turns), you would need much less capital to get that project started and could add electrification later on once you are having success. If you can beat a car by an 1.5 hours on a 3.5 hour drive, you have yourself a market for a product.

To reach 125MPH in the US you would need Class 7 track and by the time you're building that the additional cost to reach Class 8 or 9 is negligible. Locking this project into diesel-electric power for the next two or three decades is likely to dissuade the very people who are most open to using a train over a car.

 

[frequentflyer]

I was only able to find one test order of four hydrogen trains with an 80MPH speed limit and no obvious connection to CAHSR.


Maybe we should wait for Brightline to turn a profit or build something outside of Florida before we start awarding them unproven accolades.


To reach 125MPH in the US you would need Class 7 track and by the time you're building that the additional cost to reach Class 8 or 9 is negligible. Locking this project into diesel-electric power for the next two or three decades is likely to dissuade the very people who are most open to using a train over a car.

I should have clarify the FLIRTS, which are replacing some of the San Joaquins which will be using CAHSR track.

They may not have posted a profit but at least they have moved dirt and have a track record of completing projects.

The whole building rail projects without government help is a sham to me. Of they need government help.

 

[GDRRiley]

If Brightline proves successful after they launch Orlando and Tampa, I would be curious to see if they try to take over this project. Seems like a lot of the legal work is accomplished to a degree and would be a huge market opportunity if they could beat a car by an hour and a half by averaging 120mph on the route. Real difference is that atleast Brightline has financial backing and experience, TC has neither.

Right now they are capital limited. I don't think we will see them expand outside of brightline west and flordia service for a while. Unless states and or feds given them money for new lines.

 

[GDRRiley]

Good point. Who says the line has to be electrified. CAHSR is apparently holding off catenary and going Hydrogen FLIRT trains. No reason why a capable company like Brightline could not resurrect the project and drastically cut costs.

because the only way you break 125mph cheaply is with wires.
You can do 150-160mph with gas turbines but those are insanely expensive to operate.

 

[GDRRiley]

I should have clarify the FLIRTS, which are replacing some of the San Joaquins which will be using CAHSR track.

they are not, the service will be truncated.

The whole building rail projects without government help is a sham to me. Of they need government help

brightline west uses weird state issued private company bonds and cheap state owned ROWs.
that was their request to any other state who had a good city pair/pairs

 

[frequentflyer]

I thought it was the existing regional trains that were FLIRTing with hydrogen, not CAHSR.

Yes it is. There was an article, apparently now removed that stated the Amtrak SQ was going to use the completed portions of the CAHSR. Its now removed. Now I guess the plan is to meet at Merced and change trains.

There was another article that stated to save money on CAHSR construction there were seriously looking at Hydrogen power locomotives. It was in the LA times, I guess that idea has been changed too.

 

[GDRRiley]

There was another article that stated to save money on CAHSR construction there were seriously looking at Hydrogen power locomotives. It was in the LA times, I guess that idea has been changed too.

be careful around LA times and CAHSR Ralph Vartabedian wants the project killed and lies about it often
the only people who were pushing that were some politicians who just wanted to kill the program and use the funding for local transit

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Right now they are capital limited. I don't think we will see them expand outside of brightline west and flordia service for a while. Unless states and or feds given them money for new lines.

Sure, but if they are able to show profitability on 2 active train lines, their ability to borrow will increase dramatically. In addition, if the first two ventures prove successful, fortress is likely to keep funding their expansion.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

because the only way you break 125mph cheaply is with wires.
You can do 150-160mph with gas turbines but those are insanely expensive to operate.

I was saying that you might not need to break 125 to be initially successful as long as you can hit that speed throughout and avoid slowdowns. They would want to average 120mph or so, and if it’s a dedicated line that should be possible if well designed with max superelevation etc

 

[Anderson]

Agreed--you don't need this train to hit 200mph to be a success. The Shinkansen wasnt built in one sweet, it was built and gradually upgraded. If you ran it using dual mode Chargers (like Amtrak just ordered) and ran it at 125mph for the entire route (but keeping the route designed for high speed turns), you would need much less capital to get that project started and could add electrification later on once you are having success. If you can beat a car by an 1.5 hours on a 3.5 hour drive, you have yourself a market for a product.

I would agree if Texas Central went downtown-to-downtown. Stopping out in the Houston suburbs is a bit of a hiccup.

 

[Anderson]

brightline west uses weird state issued private company bonds and cheap state owned ROWs.
that was their request to any other state who had a good city pair/pairs

I mean, Brightline (in FL) mostly uses a "cheap" privately-owned ROW (combined with access to two publicly-owned ROWs with a small patch in the Orlando area when you take the general scope of the project as a whole), since the owner of FEC decided that passenger business was worth bringing back (even if only to make a killing in real estate with).

In general, though, I think the answer is that in general you need an intact (or mostly-intact) ROW that you can access to make things viable for a private investor. That could be an existing railroad (Brightline), an interstate (Brightline and Brightline West), or conceivably a shortline (probably a Class II given the scale/scope needed). In theory one of the Class Is could decide to play ball, but that seems unlikely given the current management mindset - they're so short-term focused that I don't think most of them would take a contract for 99 years of paid access with guaranteed base payments for access.

[I jest, slightly - UP was willing to entertain some of the LA-Vegas folks, but I can't speak to what priority those folks would have had.]

 

[GDRRiley]

I mean, Brightline (in FL) mostly uses a "cheap" privately-owned ROW (combined with access to two publicly-owned ROWs with a small patch in the Orlando area when you take the general scope of the project as a whole), since the owner of FEC decided that passenger business was worth bringing back (even if only to make a killing in real estate with).

Remember brightline and FEC are no longer owned by the same company, they just are using a bunch of existing agreements.

In general, though, I think the answer is that in general you need an intact (or mostly-intact) ROW that you can access to make things viable for a private investor. That could be an existing railroad (Brightline), an interstate (Brightline and Brightline West), or conceivably a shortline (probably a Class II given the scale/scope needed). In theory one of the Class Is could decide to play ball, but that seems unlikely given the current management mindset - they're so short-term focused that I don't think most of them would take a contract for 99 years of paid access with guaranteed base payments for access.

[I jest, slightly - UP was willing to entertain some of the LA-Vegas folks, but I can't speak to what priority those folks would have had.]

UP seem to be willing to do a 50 if not 100 year lease if you build and maintain your tracks and you don't interfere with them. at least to counties and state goves.

 

[The Quaking Widow]

I would agree if Texas Central went downtown-to-downtown. Stopping out in the Houston suburbs is a bit of a hiccup.

Yes, there are so many of them!

 

[cirdan]

I would agree if Texas Central went downtown-to-downtown. Stopping out in the Houston suburbs is a bit of a hiccup.

Taking Texas Central into downtown Houston would require an awful lot of eminent domain and cause huge costs plus delays engendered by endless legal disputes. This is the sort of thing a government-run railroad might do, but a privately operated railroad might be more cautious about.

 

[joelkfla]

Taking Texas Central into downtown Houston would require an awful lot of eminent domain and cause huge costs plus delays engendered by endless legal disputes. This is the sort of thing a government-run railroad might do, but a privately operated railroad might be more cautious about.

Are there any freeways that have enough unused ROW?

 

[jis]

Are there any freeways that have enough unused ROW?

Unfortunately building elevated ROWs with pillars even in very narrow freeway or other main thoroughfare medians are looked down upon in the US apparently. That is how a preponderance of new Metros are built in Asia.

 

[joelkfla]

Unfortunately building elevated ROWs with pillars even in very narrow freeway or other main thoroughfare medians are looked down upon in the US apparently. That is how a preponderance of new Metros are built in Asia.

I was thinking more of ground-level ROW, like Brightline built along 528 and had been planning along 417, and I think there are still some sections planned in the I-4 median to Tampa.

 

[west point]

Brightline has a built in advantage that almost no other lines can meet. The FEC track is mostly a straight arrow ROW that is allowing 110 MPH operatio. Even so, some curve easing has taken plave. Also, the aount of grades is much less. Suspect that its fuel consumption per mile will meet Amtrak's guel consumption with P-42s. Now Amraks' ACL-42 may be able to match with its many grades, curves, and stop and goes.

The current freight ROWs are built or rebuilt to eliminate with allowing curves.

 

[user 1215]

Taking Texas Central into downtown Houston would require an awful lot of eminent domain and cause huge costs plus delays engendered by endless legal disputes. This is the sort of thing a government-run railroad might do, but a privately operated railroad might be more cautious about.

Let guv'ment build it then sell it and it's debt to a private company for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Anderson]

Remember brightline and FEC are no longer owned by the same company, they just are using a bunch of existing agreements.

Yes, but they were executed under common ownership at the time. The break-up occurred after things were worked out between what I believe amounted to two divisions within the same corporate parent.

 

[Anderson]

Taking Texas Central into downtown Houston would require an awful lot of eminent domain and cause huge costs plus delays engendered by endless legal disputes. This is the sort of thing a government-run railroad might do, but a privately operated railroad might be more cautious about.

This is largely true. My point is that this still creates an issue in terms of "selling" the trip to folks.

Note that I said largely: If they could get access to the UP line into downtown, I believe you'd be looking at something like 1500-3000 feet of construction for a connection heading down to the Amtrak station. Alternatively, there's a BNSF line heading into downtown...but if I had to guess, UP might have the ROW needed to bypass downtown (even if they'd need to be paid a pretty penny to do so) while BNSF would be more constrained. There might also be a partly/fully disused ROW that would allow access to downtown - there were a lot of mergers here, so there's a lot of track that's been made redundant, and in quite a few cases ROWs survive largely because it simply doesn't make sense to "break" them.

[Having one or two suburban stations on each end would still make sense - first, because it's possible that given an intact operating line the local government on one end or the other might opt for commuter service; and second, because it means you don't need a massive parking deck in the middle of downtown.]