Texas High Speed Rail

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

JR Central is the same company that proposed paying for Baltimore-Washington Maglev, as a first step to Northeast Maglev. The associated organization in the US wrote the Tier 1 environmental proposal, but then the cities did a turnaround and decided to stop it.

Big picture, since the five-year IIJA became law two years ago, pro-rail regions in anti-rail-funding states have spoken up, communicating directly with the FRA at DOT, it seems: northeast Ohio; Mobile, Alabama (the only state not contributing to the new Gulf Coast service); and the DFW Metroplex. The Heartland Flyer is supported by Texas and Oklahoma though. When you're in Houston you can't believe how limited Amtrak is, and the DFW is now bigger. The video I'm about to mention says the DFW will grow by 50% by the time it's feasible this stuff will be built (I forget what year he said).

The High Speed Rail Alliance youtube channel does a good job with presentations by and questions for officials. The most recent one interviewed the head of the DFW metropolitan organization, which primarily wants true HSR from Fort Worth to Dallas, wrapped up in rebuilding the 1/3 of the interstate highway that needs it. Expensive, elevated. They suggest scrapping the old Texas Triangle proposal for HSR (Houston, San Antonio, DFW), and instead building the Texas T-bone: Fort Worth to Dallas to Houston, with a branch at College Station for San Antonio and Laredo. This means no route directly south from Fort Worth. I don't know how much of the same information is available as a PDF, such as the powerpoint he runs through, but the questions at the end are good too.

Brightline has been practical about costs and using the government. I doubt it has the resources to get involved in Texas, but it is interesting that BL Florida really needed to max out at 125mph max diesel to get it done. On the other hand HSR to from SoCal to Las Vegas is one place a highway median alignment is rather affordable. Roaming Railfan did a flyover of that route, and the very few exits on the highway have nothing there, except in one small city. By contrast the highway running in Florida required a lot of highway exit reconstruction, two tunnels, and one long bridge over I-95. Whether a 125mph diesel service from DFW to Houston would be viable, who knows. Or electrified semi-HSR.

The High Speed Rail Alliance youtube channel has a better presentation by the head of NCDOT Rail: the schedule for the S-line in NC and VA (operation in early 2031), and other matters far and wide. He even states how many people work at NCDOT Rail, and how many consultants. Quite a good presentation.

 

[cirdan]

Brightline has been practical about costs and using the government. I doubt it has the resources to get involved in Texas, but it is interesting that BL Florida really needed to max out at 125mph max diesel to get it done. On the other hand HSR to from SoCal to Las Vegas is one place a highway median alignment is rather affordable. Roaming Railfan did a flyover of that route, and the very few exits on the highway have nothing there, except in one small city. By contrast the highway running in Florida required a lot of highway exit reconstruction, two tunnels, and one long bridge over I-95. Whether a 125mph diesel service from DFW to Houston would be viable, who knows. Or electrified semi-HSR.

The money needed to rebuild a 40mph railroad for 125mph can be quite significant. It's not just about beefing up the track and signals, but there are issues to be looked at such as speed restrictions imposed by curves and eliminating road crossings. And then there are still differing needs between freight and passenger trains such as questions of superelevation on curves, and scheduling questions, which will always lead to some degree of compromise (even if you are dealing with a passenger-friendly freight railroad, which in reality you are probably not). If you build from scratch you can have a railroad where it makes most sense today rather then where it made most sense 150 years ago.

 

[jis]

The money needed to rebuild a 40mph railroad for 125mph can be quite significant. It's not just about beefing up the track and signals, but there are issues to be looked at such as speed restrictions imposed by curves and eliminating road crossings. And then there are still differing needs between freight and passenger trains such as questions of superelevation on curves, and scheduling questions, which will always lead to some degree of compromise (even if you are dealing with a passenger-friendly freight railroad, which in reality you are probably not). If you build from scratch you can have a railroad where it makes most sense today rather then where it made most sense 150 years ago.

The FEC RoW was not a 40 mph one. Even without Brightline it was maintained in superb condition (better than the CSX is typically maintained in terms of ballast width and depth and such) with freight trains, specially high value TOFC allowed upto 70mph in places. The really significant work was that they used this opportunity to replace most bridges with new ones, and of course restored the second track. FECR was a double tracked railroad and none of the RoW was lost in the interim. Speed limits are being raised to only 110 on the pre-existing RoW. Only the completely new trackage along SR528 is rated for 125mph, which also has the highest superelevation on any FRA railroad.

The grade crossings have been and still are the biggest issue on the FECR portion. For now apparently they are not getting clearance to operate at 110 through some grade crossing areas, where they will be limited to 90mph initially pending completion of some additional safety work. The new segment between Cocoa and OIA has no grade crossings. There is no freight traffic and never will be according to Brightline, between Cocoa and OIA.

Given all these limitations it made sense to save the money needed for electrification and hold to a 125 max, until the concept is proved out to be successful at least. Most people still have doubts that it will work.

Incidentally FECR and Brightline are both dispatched by the Florida Dispatching Company, which controls all traffic and schedules on the FECR and Brightline in Florida. It is jointly and equally owned by FECR and Brightline. So it is more than a friendly freight company that Brightline is working with.

Texas Central OTOH as planned is all completely new railroad on new RoW that is grade separated, and not dealing with or even interfacing/interchanging with any classic freight railroad company. So they should have no problem, at least notionally, making it a true HSR operated using electric power.

 

[frequentflyer]

I think the issue here is the unique cultural and political forces in Texas that make it more difficult than other states to complete public transportation projects, even if they're privately funded. I remember reading about all of the gyrations they had to do to get the DART funded and built in Dallas, and they can't seem to get San Antonio-Austin commuter rail up and running. Maybe for the Dallas-Houston Route they should forget about 180 mph Shinkansen technology and put the money into upgrading the existing freight railroad to handle both freight and 90-110 mph passenger service and run frequent trains that serve more than just a station in one of Houston's edge cities. I suspect it might be cheaper to do that, though, of course, getting the freight railroad on board might be a heavy lift, even if they are getting upgraded infrastructure for their freight trains.

These rural land owners HAVE to deal with oil, gas, and electrical companies wanting access across their land. You know what the difference is? You know the oil, gas and electrical companies have money in the bank to pay you.................NOW! Who would negotiate a deal with an entity with no money?

It was suggested TC follow the utility power line route, and reduce the amount of rural land needed to be bought. One of the many ideas turned down.

I have been following this TC group because they held so much promise, but the way TC acts is nebulous and shady. And that is what frustrating about this whole exercise. The next HSR group that has real funding and a real plan will have to fight the reputation TC left behind.

 

[jis]

Interesting question discussed by the Texas Rail Advocates...

https://www.texasrailadvocates.org/...ightline-west-could-there-be-brightline-texas

 

[cirdan]

$500,000 allocated for study on Houston to Dallas line.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/...ed-rail-project-awarded-500000-federal-grant/
So we've gone from acquiring land and being on the cusp of sending in the heavy construction machinery, to being back to doing studies?

 

[jis]

$500,000 allocated for study on Houston to Dallas line.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/...ed-rail-project-awarded-500000-federal-grant/
So we've gone from acquiring land and being on the cusp of sending in the heavy construction machinery, to being back to doing studies?

This is a grant to Amtrak to dust off the ruins of the previous effort and get the ball rolling again.

There are other grants to further advanced projects for Step 1 like to Las Vegas HSR to Brightline West, which is just to get them on board the program. In cases where Step 1 deliverables are substantially available already, this grant can be used to do early work on Step 2. See the slideset below for information on how the program is structured:

Corridor Identification and Development Program—Solicitation Preview Presentation (September 27, 2022)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So we've gone from acquiring land and being on the cusp of sending in the heavy construction machinery, to being back to doing studies?

I'm tired of lost time and endless backtracking as much as anyone but the failure of HSR in TX is on the intransigent NIMBY's and useless partisans who proudly sabotage any attempt at disrupting the status quo.

 

[George Harris]

I was of the impression that the Amtrak study was toward reinstating passenger service on either or both of the two lines that had pre-Amtrak passenger services. Neither of these would be cheap. The BNSF, ex BRI line is essentially a secondary freight main with a 40 mph or less speed limit. The UP, ex SP, ex T&NO route through College Station would require significant capacity upgrades to make UP happy, and in its best day was 30 minutes slower than the shorter BRI line.

 

[jis]

I was of the impression that the Amtrak study was toward reinstating passenger service on either or both of the two lines that had pre-Amtrak passenger services. Neither of these would be cheap. The BNSF, ex BRI line is essentially a secondary freight main with a 40 mph or less speed limit. The UP, ex SP, ex T&NO route through College Station would require significant capacity upgrades to make UP happy, and in its best day was 30 minutes slower than the shorter BRI line.

The grant is for HSR, not standard speed.

 

[joelkfla]

Interesting question discussed by the Texas Rail Advocates...

https://www.texasrailadvocates.org/...ightline-west-could-there-be-brightline-texas

A couple of notes about the article:

In Texas, County Judges apparently are the equivalent of county executives or county mayors in other states.

and ...

What is a Dynamic Envelope?

A dynamic envelope is known as the area near railroad crossings designed to keep motorists out of the danger zone. White connecting X’s are used to visually highlight the zone at railroad crossings that drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians should not stop to increase safety for motorists. (from Operation STRIDE)

 

[George Harris]

What is a Dynamic Envelope?

A dynamic envelope is known as the area near railroad crossings designed to keep motorists out of the danger zone. White connecting X’s are used to visually highlight the zone at railroad crossings that drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians should not stop to increase safety for motorists. (from Operation STRIDE)

Based on the context of the wording that seems the most likely meaning, but it is not what this term usually means when developing clearance diagrams.

Usually "Dynamic Envelope" means taking the actual static outline of the vehicle and adding in the effects of bounce, lateral movement, spring compression and wheel ware and sway. Anticipated variations in track position and tolerances are then added. Position is modified due to superelevation on curves. Also, when curves are involved, the end car overhang and mid car overhang are added to develop the "Swept Path" through the curves.

Jis: A quick skim of the reference says it is talking about Dallas - Austin - San Antonio, not the Dallas Houston HSR, so this is a different thing altogether.

 

[cirdan]

The grant is for HSR, not standard speed.

Next the will be telling us that 40mph is high speed.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Jis: A quick skim of the reference says it is talking about Dallas - Austin - San Antonio, not the Dallas Houston HSR, so this is a different thing altogether.

Crockett Announces $2,000,000 for Texas Passenger Rail Projects

Four projects...:

$500,000 for a Texas High-Speed Rail Corridor between Dallas and Houston
$500,000 for a Texas High-Speed Rail Corridor between Fort Worth and Houston, with additional stops in Arlington, Grand Prairie, Dallas, Hutchins, Wilmer, Lancaster, Ferris, Ennis, Richland, Plantersville, and Jersey Village
$500,000 for the Texas Triangle: Dallas - Fort Worth - Houston Intercity Passenger Rail Corridor, with additional stops in Corsicana, Hearne, College Station, and Navasota
$500,000 for I-20 Corridor Intercity Passenger Rail Service, connecting Dallas-Forth Worth with stations in Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, and the East Coast

 

[cirdan]

Does this mean there are now two projects for two separate high speed lines between Houston and the Dallas - Fort Worth metroplex? Or are both grants being channeled into different parts or segments of the same overall project?

 

[Literalman]

"40mph is high speed": in Virginia, when I was commuting on VRE, 25 was high speed. In Quantico (rail speed limit 55) and Manassas (25) VRE played recorded announcements that the adjacent track might have a high-speed train approaching. Although I commuted on VRE through 2017, I haven't ridden it south of Alexandria (or to Manassas) since then, but I would be surprised if VRE has changed the announcements. For many years (and probably still) VRE had announcements prohibiting "available electronic devices" in the quiet cars. In an online VRE chat, somebody pointed out that "available" surely should be "audible," and VRE promised to fix it someday. As long as I was riding, it still said "available." So to this former VRE commuter, 40 is pretty darn, even dangerously, fast. ;-)

 

[Anderson]

Does this mean there are now two projects for two separate high speed lines between Houston and the Dallas - Fort Worth metroplex? Or are both grants being channeled into different parts or segments of the same overall project?

Probably ultimately one project (as wild as dueling bullet trains would be), but weighing out various options before deciding what setup to run with. Texas Central "dead ending" in Dallas vs going to DAL, DFW, or over to Fort Worth is worth weighing.

 

[west point]

Why not initiate service on one of the legacy routes while HSR ROW is under construction?. Once complete decide whether to continue a reduced service on the legacy route?

 

[BlackDiamond]

Why not initiate service on one of the legacy routes while HSR ROW is under construction?. Once complete decide whether to continue a reduced service on the legacy route?

It is crazy that 2 metro areas each with populations around 7 million and at a distance ideal for rail do not have any direct passenger rail connection

 

[Anderson]

Why not initiate service on one of the legacy routes while HSR ROW is under construction?. Once complete decide whether to continue a reduced service on the legacy route?

Because that would likely take 5-10 years to bring about, several hundred million dollars to the host RRs, and require a long-ish term operating deal with the Feds for money?

Edit: To be clear, I think that something like this would complement a shinkansen, especially if there were shared stations. But the above is a hangup since the conventional service would likely only be running for five years or so before the HSR project got operational.

 

[George Harris]

Quoting:
Four projects directly benefiting the people of Texas' 30th Congressional District have been awarded funding:

• $500,000 for a Texas High-Speed Rail Corridor between Dallas and Houston
• $500,000 for a Texas High-Speed Rail Corridor between Fort Worth and Houston, with additional stops in Arlington, Grand Prairie, Dallas, Hutchins, Wilmer, Lancaster, Ferris, Ennis, Richland, Plantersville, and Jersey Village
• $500,000 for the Texas Triangle: Dallas - Fort Worth - Houston Intercity Passenger Rail Corridor, with additional stops in Corsicana, Hearne, College Station, and Navasota
• $500,000 for I-20 Corridor Intercity Passenger Rail Service, connecting Dallas-Forth Worth with stations in Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, and the East Coast

Comments:
First one apparently is the current Texas HSR project].
Second one: Not quite sure. Is this intended to be a northern extension of and a somewhat local service overlay of the HSR?
Third one appears to be one side of the Texas Triangle being service over the UP (former SP) route between Dallas and Houston. What about the other two sides? Dallas - Ft. Worth - Waco - Austin - San Antonio, and Houston - San Antonio?
Fourth one is obviously the Meridian - Jackson MS - Shreveport - Dallas offshoot of the Crescent Route. That would be somewhere above 500 miles of new train between Meridian and Dallas, probably 10 to 12 hours given good conditions and no crazy amounts for speed ups. Add NY-Atlanta about 16, plus Atlanta-Meridian about 8, and you would get 34 to 36 hours New York to Dallas, that is, either two days one night or two nights one day end to end. Given the intermediate points, probably one of each would be a good idea.

 

[frequentflyer]

Does this mean there are now two projects for two separate high speed lines between Houston and the Dallas - Fort Worth metroplex? Or are both grants being channeled into different parts or segments of the same overall project?

I am still baffled there is a separate group that wants to run HSR using Japan's equipment between Dallas and Ft Worth.

https://www.nctcog.org/trans/plan/t...ies/transit-planning-projects/high-speed-rail
Separate from Texas Central's Dallas-Houston line.

And one wonders why no one takes these plans seriously.

 

[frequentflyer]

Interesting question discussed by the Texas Rail Advocates...

https://www.texasrailadvocates.org/...ightline-west-could-there-be-brightline-texas

Anyone other than inept Texas Central. No doubt Brightline has kicked the tires about Dallas to Houston to the chagrin of Texas Central.

But this article presents another opportunity that many pass over but could have the same ridership numbers or more. Let Texas Central spin its wheels on the I-45 line but Brightline concentrate on the DFW-SAT route, with Waco, Temple (Central texas), Austin and San Antonio. That route guarantees big ridership numbers. Problem is there is no cheap ROW to use and getting to downtown Austin would be a problem.

 

[Rover]

After decades of research, the U.S. remains without authentic high-speed rail options. Federal planners believe that a route connecting major cities in Texas may be an ideal fit.

In 2014, a group organized under the name Texas Central announced plans to connect Dallas to Houston with a bullet train that travels more than 200 miles per hour, shortening a three and a half hour drive to a 90-minute train ride. The route would connect two large and fast-growing population centers, making one stop near local universities in the Brazos Valley.

The Texas Central project has been repeatedly delayed as its backers navigate various regulatory hurdles, including environmental reviews and disputes over property rights. The leadership team at Texas Central resigned in the middle of land acquisition for the process. Texas Central declined multiple requests for comment from CNBC.

The project is expected to cost at least $33.6 billion dollars, according to a March 2023 analysis from the Reason Foundation. Similar high-speed rail projects around the world have faced substantial cost overruns in development. That includes Japan's Tokaido Shinkansen system and California High-Speed Rail, which could someday connect Los Angeles to San Francisco.

The Texas effort has received substantial support from businesses in Texas, Japanese firms and the U.S. government. With a historic $66 billion commitment to passenger rail, the U.S. government under Biden appears to have its best bet in generations to start an authentic high-speed rail system. But the future of publicly subsidized projects, including Texas Central and California High-Speed Rail remain uncertain.

Amtrak told CNBC that if Texas Central passes a financial review, it could be open for passengers as soon as the early 2030s.

 

[John Bredin]

Can't CNBC use its own resources (vast conglomerate Universal!) rather than relying on a [del]hit job[/del] analysis from the reliably anti-rail "Reason" Foundation?!