The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

[jiml]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/new...r-BB1fsZSe?ocid=MF11KM&li=AAggNb9&OCID=MF11KM

 

[Bob Dylan]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/new...r-BB1fsZSe?ocid=MF11KM&li=AAggNb9&OCID=MF11KM

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So far we have a lethal software defect, insufficient training, a wiring harness flaw, and now a grounding failure?

 

[jiml]

So far we have a lethal software defect, insufficient training, a wiring harness flaw, and now a grounding failure?

Yeah, that about sums it up.

 

[Cal]

It's getting really hard to continue to support Boeing these days

 

[Dakota 400]

So far we have a lethal software defect, insufficient training, a wiring harness flaw, and now a grounding failure?

My "angry" reaction was directed at Boeing.

Time to stop production of this model. All planes of this model being scrapped, with the metal turned into material and used to make a new plane that will be carefully, thoroughly well designed and tested.

I was somewhat pleased to see that there are a number of new members on the Boeing's Board when I read their shareholder report and proxy statement. However, there are still too many of the members of the Board who are holdovers from the previous Boards. I voted to support the "new blood"; I voted against those Board members who need to take their stock options and "get the heck out of Chicago".

 

[Dakota 400]

It's getting really hard to continue to support Boeing these days

As a shareholder of the company, the thing that most irritates me is that the problems seem to be in the division of the company that produces the passenger planes. The other business segments seem not to have the problems that that segment has had.

Boeing has become too large of a Company for it to be properly managed? Time for the spin-off of the passenger plane segment of the Company so that those in charge of the management of that segment can have more direct oversight of that one segment as compared to what is currently required?

 

[jis]

Boeing has had problems with getting their passenger spacecraft certified too of late.

 

[John Santos]

Boeing has had problems with getting their passenger spacecraft certified too of late.

Not to mention the SLS, which if it actually launches this year will be 5 years late and billion over budget.

 

[HenryK]

To be fair to Boeing, the recall involves about 60 out of the 800-some 737 Maxes already built, and the flaw is in a backup system. The flaw was discovered in normal inspections, not via accident . . . the system is working as it should. It is an area of concern but the sky is not falling.

 

[Trogdor]

If one were to look at the FAA database, one would note over 100 Airworthiness Directives in just the past 60 days, and 25 or so for this month alone.

A good number of them apply to Airbus planes. But because it’s the 737MAX, it makes the news.

 

[caravanman]

To be fair to Boeing, the recall involves about 60 out of the 800-some 737 Maxes already built, and the flaw is in a backup system. The flaw was discovered in normal inspections, not via accident . . . the system is working as it should. It is an area of concern but the sky is not falling.

Do we know which planes out of the 800 odd require grounding? What is the difference between those that do and those that don't? Something changed at some point, so that change ought to have been discovered / investigated/ prevented. The sky may not be falling, but as an airline user, this sort of large scale deviation from the norm in an aircraft back up system , not just in one plane, is not something to just gloss over?

 

[adamj023]

The max problem of grounding sounds like an easy inspection and repair process if necessary for the latest issue. I bet turnaround time could be a few hours per plane tops and is only a fraction of the 737 Max out there so should be back in service quickly. There are always small scale issues that occur which are normally resolved in the regular maintenance intervals.

 

[Ziv]

Boeing's military aircraft production hasn't done that much better than its civilian aircraft production. Look at the KC-46A Pegasus. 10 years after the contract was awarded we are still a couple years from full operational capability. There have been a litany of widely varying problems but they all come down to poor corporate leadership.
One other thing about the article I link to, notice how seldom Boeing is named? What is up with that?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...lemon-that-its-trying-to-make-lemonade-out-of

 

[MARC Rider]

Boeing's military aircraft production hasn't done that much better than its civilian aircraft production. Look at the KC-46A Pegasus. 10 years after the contract was awarded we are still a couple years from full operational capability. There have been a litany of widely varying problems but they all come down to poor corporate leadership.
One other thing about the article I link to, notice how seldom Boeing is named? What is up with that?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...lemon-that-its-trying-to-make-lemonade-out-of

From I read, the problem with this new tanker is with a remote sensing device on the refilling boom. This seems to be installed so that the boom operator can now sit up front in the cockpit rather than in the back of the plane where he or she can directly see the boom in real time. If that was a capability insisted on by the Air Force, perhaps Boeing isn't the only one at blame, here.

 

[Ziv]

MARC Rider, the boom issue was one of 4 Category 1 problems the Pegasus has had. The others were the inability for the aircraft to refuel A-10's, the boom randomly scraping refueling aircraft and the fuel leaks that have been detected on half the KC-46's delivered so far.
The most embarrassing one, though not a Cat 1 issue, is the fact that several of the KC-46's have been delivered with trash, rags, tools and debris left inside the fuselage lining, out of sight but possibly in a place that could sever wiring or contribute to fires. One aircraft was actually delivered with a ladder and a string of lights behind a bulkhead.

From I read, the problem with this new tanker is with a remote sensing device on the refilling boom. This seems to be installed so that the boom operator can now sit up front in the cockpit rather than in the back of the plane where he or she can directly see the boom in real time. If that was a capability insisted on by the Air Force, perhaps Boeing isn't the only one at blame, here.

 

[Bob Dylan]

MARC Rider, the boom issue was one of 4 Category 1 problems the Pegasus has had. The others were the inability for the aircraft to refuel A-10's, the boom randomly scraping refueling aircraft and the fuel leaks that have been detected on half the KC-46's delivered so far.
The most embarrassing one, though not a Cat 1 issue, is the fact that several of the KC-46's have been delivered with trash, rags, tools and debris left inside the fuselage lining, out of sight but possibly in a place that could sever wiring or contribute to fires. One aircraft was actually delivered with a ladder and a string of lights behind a bulkhead.

Sounds like what comes out of the Chicago Amtrak Yards! Lol

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Time to stop production of this model. All planes of this model being scrapped, with the metal turned into material and used to make a new plane that will be carefully, thoroughly well designed and tested.

The aircraft itself can probably be made safe with enough corrections, but the system that created it remains largely intact, so even if they started over they could potentially fall into the same trap again.

To be fair to Boeing, the recall involves about 60 out of the 800-some 737 Maxes already built, and the flaw is in a backup system. The flaw was discovered in normal inspections, not via accident . . . the system is working as it should. It is an area of concern but the sky is not falling.

By this logic a car that stalls on Monday but runs on Tuesday is "working as it should" despite lacking dependability.

If one were to look at the FAA database, one would note over 100 Airworthiness Directives in just the past 60 days, and 25 or so for this month alone. A good number of them apply to Airbus planes. But because it’s the 737MAX, it makes the news.

How many of those directives resulted in dozens of grounded aircraft?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This video states that most of the penalties went to airlines rather than families of dead passengers and nearly all corrective effort was focused on fixing the MAX rather than resolving Boeing and the FAA's conflict of interest.

 

[Asher]

The max problem of grounding sounds like an easy inspection and repair process if necessary for the latest issue. I bet turnaround time could be a few hours per plane tops and is only a fraction of the 737 Max out there so should be back in service quickly. There are always small scale issues that occur which are normally resolved in the regular maintenance intervals.

Were not talking about the same 737 max that became un flyable with Boeing not able to give a reasonable answer for are we, or is this is a new issue on top of all the old problems. Small scale. Really!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Were not talking about the same 737 max that became un flyable with Boeing not able to give a reasonable answer for are we, or is this is a new issue on top of all the old problems. Small scale. Really!

I guess grounding 100+ aircraft and suspending new deliveries is a minor event to some folks. Happens all the time don't ya know. He also estimated a few hours of effort "tops" but the actual estimate is a few days per aircraft.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Deliveries of the 737 MAX have resumed following regulator approval of the proposed fix but increased oversight remains a priority in Congress.

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ies-following-latest-issue-source-2021-05-19/

Democrats on the House Transportation Committee are launching a fresh review of Boeing’s 737 Max, seeking records from the company and the Federal Aviation Administration about a manufacturing issue that recently led to dozens of the jets being grounded.

Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/05/18/faa-boeing-737-records

 

[Ziv]

I have had family members that worked for Boeing since the early 1960's and we have always been a Boeing family. And Boeing treated our family pretty well. We are down to 2 family members that still work for Boeing and when I pointed out that Boeing had had a series of missteps over the years, one of them was not sure what I was talking about, other than the Max. I pointed out that the KC-46 Pegasus has had a raft of problems and is years late, that the 787 Dreamliner had the battery problems and now it looks like their 02 system is a problem as well, that both the StarLiner and the SLS are stumbling badly, plus of course the 737 Max self inflicted wounds. Her response was that Boeing builds a lot of products and there are bound to be a few problems. I was surprised by her attitude. She is an Electrical Engineer and pretty much a perfectionist when it comes to work.
I haven't really spent enough time and effort to see where the problems seem to have really originated but my cursory studies seem to indicate that most of the larger problems have their origins a few years after the corporate HQ was moved from Seattle to Chicago. It seems like the leadership emphasis has moved from engineering excellence to improving the bottom line. To this outsider it seems like the engineers in Boeings leadership team have lost their dominant role to the MBA's. Just my two cents.
Edited to answer Dakota's question r.e. what I meant by EE.

Deliveries of the 737 MAX have resumed following regulator approval of the proposed fix but increased oversight remains a priority in Congress.

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ies-following-latest-issue-source-2021-05-19/


Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/05/18/faa-boeing-737-records

 

[Dakota 400]

but my cursory studies seem to indicate that most of the larger problems have their origins a few years after the corporate HQ was moved from Seattle to Chicago. It seems like the leadership emphasis has moved from engineering excellence to improving the bottom line. To this outsider it seems like the engineers in Boeings leadership team have lost their dominant role to the MBA's. Just my two cents.

As a long time Boeing shareholder, your diagnosis of the root of the problems is correct. There is a slow changeover in membership of the Board of Directors. In the past couple of Annual Meetings, I have been voting against everything/everybody that the Board recommends a vote "For". 2021, I found some "new blood" on the Board and voted for them while continuing to vote against those who have been on the Board in the past. I hope my slight optimism will not be misplaced.

She is an EE

Does EE mean electrical engineer?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...7-max-claims-against-boeing-board-2021-09-07/Although several claims were apparently dismissed before having their day in court other claims will be allowed to move forward.