The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

[Dakota 400]

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...7-max-claims-against-boeing-board-2021-09-07/Although several claims were apparently dismissed before having their day in court other claims will be allowed to move forward.

I have been a part of class action claims for a few companies over the years and did receive some compensation for my participation. I am currently a member of a class action claim for overcharging by a consortium of trans-Pacific airlines that has been ongoing for some time. I thought the issue was "dead". I missed a deadline or something to do whatever needed to be done. A few days ago, I received a notice that my claim was valid and settlement was "near". Whatever time frame "near" means.

It is "work" for an individual to participate in such class action suits is what I have learned.

 

[PaTrainFan]

I have been a part of class action claims for a few companies over the years and did receive some compensation for my participation. I am currently a member of a class action claim for overcharging by a consortium of trans-Pacific airlines that has been ongoing for some time. I thought the issue was "dead". I missed a deadline or something to do whatever needed to be done. A few days ago, I received a notice that my claim was valid and settlement was "near". Whatever time frame "near" means.

It is "work" for an individual to participate in such class action suits is what I have learned.

The only winners in class action lawsuits are the plaintiffs' attorneys who make millions. In the run of the mill, smaller class action lawsuits generally the regular folks get a pittance. A gift card, a free ticket to a performance., etc. The "big" Equifax breach class action from a few years ago which promised in excess of $100 per participant and has dragged on and on will end up being next to nothing, or free credit monitoring which you can now get on your own anywhere, when it's all said and done.

 

[flitcraft]

The point of class actions suits, I think, is not compensation for past malfeasance. It's to force a company to stop a practice that is hurting consumers. As they say, "Steal a hundred bucks from a guy and you'll go to jail. Steal fifty bucks from a million guys and it's just business as usual." Class action suits put a stop to low level thievery in the future.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The only winners in class action lawsuits are the plaintiffs' attorneys who make millions.

The individual remedy may be meager but the total payout is designed to be extremely memorable to the defendant and force attention on harmful actions that would otherwise become the cost of doing abusive business.

The "big" Equifax breach class action from a few years ago which promised in excess of $100 per participant and has dragged on and on will end up being next to nothing, or free credit monitoring which you can now get on your own anywhere, when it's all said and done.

The delay was caused by the settlement being challenged on the basis of unacceptably low payouts and overly restrictive terms. So would you prefer a higher amount with a longer delay or a lower amount on a faster schedule?

In the run of the mill, smaller class action lawsuits generally the regular folks get a pittance. A gift card, a free ticket to a performance., etc.

In my class actions I usually generally received a judgement roughly equivalent to splitting the difference. Which makes sense since these are negotiated settlements. I guess if I was expecting a big payday I would have been disappointed but the amounts received seemed like a fair outcome in return for zero effort and funding on my part. Anyone who thinks class actions are a useless gesture can file their own lawsuit and chase whatever judgement they feel is appropriate.

 

[Barb Stout]

I was a member of a class action lawsuit and received 38 cents. Of course, I wouldn't have gotten anything if I wasn't a member of the class action.

 

[Dakota 400]

In my class actions I usually generally received a judgement roughly equivalent to splitting the difference. Which makes sense since these are negotiated settlements. I guess if I was expecting a big payday I would have been disappointed but the amounts received seemed like a fair outcome in return for zero effort and funding on my part. Anyone who thinks class actions are a useless gesture can file their own lawsuit and chase whatever judgement they feel is appropriate.

That is the way that I view my participation in a class action suit. Don't expect a large payday, but, if in the view of the Court, I have been harmed by the Company involved, I will gladly accept whatever the Court determines is appropriate.

Re: effort involved to participate--That varies with the suit. A few are "no effort"; those result in the smallest awards, in my opinion. The ones that require documentation provided by me are the ones from which I have gotten the largest settlements. If the suit requires one to provide dates of purchases and sale of stock along with the number of shares: oh my! Those can cause the thought of "is doing this really worth my time and effort"?

 

[Night Ranger]

I was a member of a class action lawsuit and received 38 cents. Of course, I wouldn't have gotten anything if I wasn't a member of the class action.

My wife was notified today that she will be receiving seven dollars and change as part of the settlement of a class action suit involving milk and milk products. The notice also stated that there were far more participants in the suit than anticipated which lowered the amount each participant received. We will use it to buy more milk when we do our weekly grocery shopping.

 

[snaebyllej]

Most class action shareholder suits that I've seen won't even pay out unless your share is at least $10.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The only people who benefit from class action suits are the lawyers.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The only people who benefit from class action suits are the lawyers.

I disagree but I also struggle to explain how average everyday people benefit from class actions in a way that gets around their disappointment of expecting a significant personal payout from any legal action. I thought that after tort reform passed Americans would see that the promised discounts never materialized and would realized they had been bamboozled, but as soon as it passed they forgot all about it.

 

[Dakota 400]

My wife was notified today that she will be receiving seven dollars and change as part of the settlement of a class action suit involving milk and milk products.

Better than nothing, I think. At least, the amount is small enough you won't have to declare it on your 2021 1040.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Better than nothing, I think. At least, the amount is small enough you won't have to declare it on your 2021 1040.

A few years ago I received a Check for $1.47 as my payment for a Class action Suit being settled!( probably cost more to issue/process the check which I didn't cash, it's in my " Save Drawer".)

Currently waiting on my " Windfall" from a being part of a Class Action against Turbo Tax!

 

[jis]

The rot at Boeing is not just in aviation. It infects space too …

https://apple.news/AIKfiH4gfS7ywqwkOZ64FPw

 

[Dakota 400]

The rot at Boeing is not just in aviation. It infects space too …

https://apple.news/AIKfiH4gfS7ywqwkOZ64FPw

Sticky valves? I wonder if the Boeing geniuses have ever heard of WD-40? Seriously, though, this article does indicate that sloppiness in software development as well in the engineering/construction end of the business continues.

 

[west point]

I may be old school but flying an airplane without needing systems to keep you out of trouble are the best. The DC-9 and B-727 were aircraft that could have serious problems either electrical and/or Hydraulic but you could get them home easily. Engines could suck fuel and controls although heavier on 727 were useable. Trim operation could be completed manually and runaway trim was very evident.

The Max however appears to need all sorts of help to remain stable. The larger engines on the Max requires them to be placed well ahead of the wings to facilitate ground clearances. This places the thrust well ahead of the wings center of lift and center of gravity. So the engines give an nose up moment that has to be counteracted by control surface mitigation. That makes pilots always have to be alert. A - 10 second pilot lapse when a computer doesn't work the hydraulics can be a problem,. Then again if a computer makes pitch down commands that are dangerous ---- ******

These problems could have IMO be avoided by adapting and using the B-757 wing with its longer landing gear allowing engines to be in the "proper" location. Better still would have been just adapting 757s to MAX design desires.

 

[PVD]

If that were done, it would not be a 737 derivative, it would be a different plane requiring an extensive new plane certification process, and pilot transition training would be much longer since you would most likely be looking at a different type rating. &%& was a great plane, but it would not be economically competitive. Think all new tooling and assembly line as well...

 

[Trogdor]

I may be old school but flying an airplane without needing systems to keep you out of trouble are the best. The DC-9 and B-727 were aircraft that could have serious problems either electrical and/or Hydraulic but you could get them home easily. Engines could suck fuel and controls although heavier on 727 were useable. Trim operation could be completed manually and runaway trim was very evident.

Safety records of today’s planes (MAX notwithstanding) vs. the DC9 and 727 would say otherwise.

The Max however appears to need all sorts of help to remain stable. The larger engines on the Max requires them to be placed well ahead of the wings to facilitate ground clearances. This places the thrust well ahead of the wings center of lift and center of gravity. So the engines give an nose up moment that has to be counteracted by control surface mitigation.

That is not at all true.

“We also pushed the aircraft to its limits during flight tests, assessed the behaviour of the aircraft in failure scenarios, and could confirm that the aircraft is stable and has no tendency to pitch-up even without the MCAS.” Ref: EASA lays out its proposed conditions for return to service of the Boeing 737 MAX | EASA

These problems could have IMO be avoided by adapting and using the B-757 wing with its longer landing gear allowing engines to be in the "proper" location. Better still would have been just adapting 757s to MAX design desires.

The 757 is overweight and overbuilt and would never compete with the 737 and A320. There’s a reason its sales (which were never that high; IIRC it averaged something like 25/year throughout its whole life) went to zero shortly after the 737NG was introduced. There is also no engine in the 757 thrust category available, and would have cost extra billions to develop, whereas the 737 MAX uses a variant of the engines also used on the A320neo. The fact that the 757 is heavier means you’d need more fuel burn for the same performance, which would also immediately put it at a disadvantage.

All these problems could have been avoided by Boeing engineers having proper time to evaluate a couple of relatively small design decisions, by their sales team not literally copy-pasting the phrasing of the training requirements in their contract with Southwest Airlines, and by a corporate culture not being more invested in “Jedi mind tricks” to lie to regulators to cover up stuff they just assumed would be okay. Structurally and aerodynamically, the 737 MAX is fine, and this is backed up by regulators around the world who looked at the plane with a fine-toothed comb after realizing they couldn’t trust the FAA’s word.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

DOWNFALL: The Case Against Boeing | Official Trailer | Netflix

 

[Cal]

DOWNFALL: The Case Against Boeing | Official Trailer | Netflix

I intend to watch that this weekend, I saw the trailer last week. Looks interesting

 

[Acela150]

I watched it Saturday night. It was very well put together. I also watched the episode of PBS Frontline on the MAX on YouTube for free that PBS posted. Although, I paid the $3 for it to keep it on my iPad forever.

 

[jis]

Now there is an entire long thread on Downfall at airliners.net:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1470255

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I intend to watch that this weekend, I saw the trailer last week. Looks interesting

So what did you think?

I watched it Saturday night. It was very well put together. I also watched the episode of PBS Frontline on the MAX on YouTube for free that PBS posted. Although, I paid the $3 for it to keep it on my iPad forever.

I felt it was well done. It touched on all of the primary factors without getting too technical or too dramatic. I personally would have liked more details and forward looking predictive analysis but I can see why they left that out.

 

[flitcraft]

My husband, who worked at Boeing for thirty years before retirement, came away thoroughly disgusted with the post McDonnell Douglas merger impact on the corporate culture. In place of a safety-first culture of deference to engineering, they went to a 'shareholder-value' culture of reducing the expenses of design, testing, and manufacture. The engineers we knew well there have either quit or retired. When my husband joined them some years back, he told me that it was only a question of time before these policies--including outsourcing a lot of production and moving Boeing production to 'right to work' states without workforces with aerospace production experience--would end up in disaster.

Have management learned anything from the Max debacle? It does not seem so...

 

[Cal]

So what did you think?

I said I intended to watch it, haven't got around to it yet.

 

[jis]

Have management learned anything from the Max debacle? It does not seem so...

They appear to be charging along fearlessly in the Charleston 787 fiasco. They still cannot ship any new 787s and airlines like American are now starting to hurt even with COVID reduced traffic.

Left an entire ladder in the horizontal stab by mistake? That takes a special level of lack of attention to "details".