The Crescent and Sunday blue laws

[justinslot]

This afternoon: I go to the cafe car and ask for some gin to go with my cheese and cracker tray. No, I can't be sold that, we're in Alabama on Sunday. Okay, fine. Annoying but fine.

This evening: I want to order a bottle of red to go with my Field and Sea or whatever it's called (the Sea as of today is a crabcake, not seared shrimp, by the way.) We are not more than ten minutes from pulling out of Peachtree Station. No, I can't be sold that bottle of red wine. We're in Atlanta, I protest. There's no way I can't buy some wine with my steak in Atlanta on a Sunday. Still no deal.

The second denial of alcohol irritates me enough to complain about it on the Internet. It just seems unreasonable to me. Georgia does not have the repressive laws Alabama and Mississippi do. The Atlanta metro definitely does not.

Also, is this the only route that has to deal with blue laws? I don't remember ever being denied a drink on a Silver train, though I can't remember if I ever travelled on a Sunday.

 

[pennyk]

The Silver Meteor goes through Georgia and South Carolina. Generally, the cafe car attendant on Sundays will make an annoucment before we arrive in Georgia so passengers may purchase their alcohol (to drink with dinner or otherwise) before we leave Florida. I have been on the Meteor in Florida many times and purchase in cafe car and bring to diner during dinner. I have been "caught" once when there was no announcement and I forgot about the Georgia Blue Laws.

 

[justinslot]

If there was an announcement before we left LA I missed it. :/

But still--we were in Atlanta basically!

 

[SarahZ]

Sometimes it depends on the specifics of the law, too. While you may be able to purchase alcohol at a package store on Sunday, restaurants may not be able to serve it. If restaurants are allowed, then it sometimes depends on their sales numbers.

On the Wolverine one Sunday evening: Some guys tried to buy beer in the cafe car shortly after leaving Chicago, and the attendant said, "Sorry, we just crossed into Indiana. No alcohol on Sunday." The guys started to whine and moan and throw a fit, and the attendant basically said, "Seriously? We'll be in Michigan in 15-20 minutes. Just go sit in one of the booths, and I'll tell you when we get to New Buffalo."

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Blue laws aren't Amtrak's fault, and challenging them in court in order to resolve and clarify inconsistencies is very time consuming and extremely expensive. However, it would be genuinely helpful if Amtrak would take the time to publish a list of religious laws it believes apply to their trains and how they are implemented.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak trains have been stopped by Law Enforcement Officers and lounge car attendants or others arrested for not adhering to local blue laws. This was true on preAmtrak passenger trains as well.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Every State has its own quirky laws pertaining to alcohol.

Here in the Lone Star State of Texas hard liquor can't be sold in Liquor Stores ( aka Package Stores)between 10PM and 9am Mon-Sat, and not at all on Sunday. (so called Blue Law)

Bars,Clubs,Taverns and other licensed stores can sell alcohol Mon-Sat 7am-2am except on Sunday, when the hours are Noon-2am in the club's for all alcohol and Noon-2am for Beer and Wine only in stores.

As for Amtrak,while rolling through Texas, it's been my experience that alcohol is sold whenever the Cafe and Diner are open.

YMMV

 

[PVD]

The thing many people forget, is that the legislation that created Amtrak made it exempt from some state and local laws (like taxes) but not others, and they are covered by state and local alcohol service laws. It (Amtrak) is covered by the Federal FOIA and the 1st Amendment free speech provisos, but is not a Federal Agency. It is a corporation owned by the Federal Government.

 

[Don Newcomb]

The thing many people forget, is that the legislation that created Amtrak made it exempt from some state and local laws (like taxes) but not others, and they are covered by state and local alcohol service laws. It (Amtrak) is covered by the Federal FOIA and the 1st Amendment free speech provisos, but is not a Federal Agency. It is a corporation owned by the Federal Government.

It would be difficult for Congress to exempt anyone from the provisions of the 21st Amendment.

" The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited."

In other words, the States get to say when, where, how or if alcoholic beverages are served. The only way Congress can get around this is by bribing the States to do what they want.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You would think that the prohibition of establishing a state religion would have knocked blue laws into the stream of unconstitutional a long time ago. Prohibiting alcohol sales or changing permitted hours specifically during Sunday is one of the most blatant examples that this country, at least passively, establishes its religion as Christianity.

 

[PVD]

Actually, the courts have ruled that the 21st Amendment is not an absolute, and the Federal Gov't retains significant rights under the Commerce Clause. Example: I'm trucking liquor to a Federally controlled facility like a National Park...that is not considered transportation for state regulation of alcohol transportation purposes. Courts have also struck down many laws that unfairly targeted products produced in other states by imposing much higher fees or conditions upon them. They (Congress) could have made a declaration that the space on the train was Federally controlled for alcohol purposes, it would have likely been upheld.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak should be treated like airlines flying over a "dry" territory, if they operate "closed doors" thru it, without making any passenger stops....that should satisfy the "spirit of the law", by protecting its 'good citizen's' from the 'evil' substance....

 

[PVD]

That might make sense to many, but that is not how the legislation that created Amtrak was written.

 

[trainboy325]

As already stated, the 21st Amendment of the Constitution clearly gives all authority of the production, distribution, sale and consumption of alcohol to the States within their own borders. There is no federal statute or enabling legislation that can give the US Government, or its agents like the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, the authority to supersede state or local ordinances on the matter of distribution, sale or consumption of alcohol. These type of alcohol related jurisdiction cases have been already litigated many in the past going all the way to the Supreme Court. The Court recently confirmed that the dormant commerce clause still does not apply to alcohol, as prescribed in Article II of the 21st Amendment. In Granholm vs Heald, the Court said States couldn't restrict solely the transportation through a state's boundary (such as direct sales via mail, interstate transit on board a truck, etc.), as it maintained the 21st Amendment didn't amend rights afforded to individuals and corporations in the interstate commerce clause. However, it did confirm the State's sole and absolute jurisdiction on production, distribution and consumption within their boundaries. Had the court ruled a different way on the matter of transportation, theoretically no Amtrak train could have alcohol onboard for the entire trip if the train's schedule were to pass through a jurisdiction with blue laws in effect.

This was an issue faced in the early 1970s in Kansas when their attorney general was famously known for having Amtrak employees fined and arrested for selling and having in their possession alcohol for sale on Sundays. Many of the old timers still working for Amtrak when I worked OBS in 2004-2005, some who hired out with Seaboard Coast Line, clearly remember alcohol agents coming aboard in places like Savannah, Charleston and Jacksonville and secret shop the lounges and dining cars looking for Sunday sales violations. Many of those stewards/LSAs were the most cautious with alcohol sales all the way through their retirements because of the fear and intimidation state agents placed on them early in their careers. As a result, the refusal to serve alcohol by the LSA to ensure compliance with the overarching state law, versus attempting to sell within an area where a commonly known exception exists, is the guidance given the OBS Employee Handbook on the matter.

 

[PVD]

What they did was rule that bringing alcohol to a Federal Jurisdiction like a National Park was not regulated transportation and the 21st did not cover it. None of that matters, Congress didn't make a choice that would have resulted in the matter being litigated; If they had chosen to make the train the same as an in flight airplane we would have probably have an answer. For now, (and for the foreseeable future) they must follow State and local laws. That is not in question.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Amtrak trains have been stopped by Law Enforcement Officers and lounge car attendants or others arrested for not adhering to local blue laws. This was true on preAmtrak passenger trains as well.

Is there any source to back this up? Seems pretty extreme.

 

[MattW]

A sealed train isn't exactly "importation into" a state, even if it stops there, anyone still on board isn't entering that jurisdiction. It would take some serious logical gymnastics to try to argue such.

 

[PVD]

Except that there is sale and consumption on the train, which others have pointed out, the regulation of that is clearly reserved to the states. For almost all purposes, you are considered to be under the states legal jurisdiction when on the train. Overflight in a plane is treated differently. Congress did not attempt to carve out an exception (like sales taxation on a train), had they chosen to do so, it would have been up to the courts to decide. When the Constitution has opposing provisions of states' rights versus the Federal right to govern interstate commerce, interstate commerce has done pretty well in the Supreme Court. But there isn't a conflict here,

 

[BCL]

I'm guessing it's a little more complicated.

I guess a lot of people know that Utah has some of the most restrictive alcohol laws of any state. People have been cited for bringing in personal alcohol into the state, which has extremely few allowances for doing so.

Still - I haven't really heard of commercial truckers getting trouble for bringing alcohol through Utah on the way to another state.

Now whether or not they're going to run stings on Amtrak passengers who might have personal alcohol, I don't know.

 

[PVD]

through and into are entirely different.....

 

[BCL]

through and into are entirely different.....

But there have been people who have brought kegs (illegal for personal use) through Utah and who have been cited.

The laws aren't written in a way that specifies a difference between through or into. I mean - if I'm driving through the state and stop at a hotel with my booze but don't drink it, would that be legal?

That being said, I've done it before and actually consumed it in Utah. I had no idea what the law were though, and it's probably well past any statute of limitations. All I knew was that it was hard to buy beer (I went to a state liquor store earlier in the trip) in Utah so I bought a case in Arizona.

 

[PVD]

Personal use and commercial interstate transport are also different.

 

[Skyline]

These religious zealots don't have to drink alcohol if they don't want to. But they should not be able to prohibit others from doing so. The law gives them way too much power over the rest of us.

 

[justinslot]

Blue laws aren't Amtrak's fault, and challenging them in court in order to resolve and clarify inconsistencies is very time consuming and extremely expensive. However, it would be genuinely helpful if Amtrak would take the time to publish a list of religious laws it believes apply to their trains and how they are implemented.

This. Somebody should have told me, come back when we get to Atlanta. (I think some counties in GA still have restrictions but not very many and I am very confident Atlanta doesn't have any that would prevent me from buying wine on Sunday.)

 

[Ryan]

Fortunately, Amtrak does publish such a guide for their employees, which occasionally finds its way into the light of day.

Note that they don’t attempt to capture things at the county level. It would take an entire book of its own, and be nearly impossible to keep track of exactly where you are at times.