The Crescent and Sunday blue laws

[railiner]

Fortunately, Amtrak does publish such a guide for their employees, which occasionally finds its way into the light of day.

Note that they dont attempt to capture things at the county level. It would take an entire book of its own, and be nearly impossible to keep track of exactly where you are at times.

IMG_4913.jpg

From the states shown, it appears Ct. and Fl. are the party zones...

 

[A Voice]

These religious zealots don't have to drink alcohol if they don't want to. But they should not be able to prohibit others from doing so. The law gives them way too much power over the rest of us.

For a nation founded upon Christian principles, one would normally expect the legal code to reflect a Christian perspective.

 

[MikefromCrete]

These religious zealots don't have to drink alcohol if they don't want to. But they should not be able to prohibit others from doing so. The law gives them way too much power over the rest of us.

For a nation founded upon Christian principles, one would normally expect the legal code to reflect a Christian perspective.

In America, we have freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak trains have been stopped by Law Enforcement Officers and lounge car attendants or others arrested for not adhering to local blue laws. This was true on preAmtrak passenger trains as well.

Is there any source to back this up? Seems pretty extreme.

I remember reading about a situation when Amtrak's Lone Star was still running. A Kansas Law Enforcement officer stopped the train and walked through and found that alcohol was being sold in the lounge car. The lounge car attendant was arrested and detained. The train was delayed during the process. It occurred before such items were documented on the Internet, so I am not able to find the story.

 

[Bob Dylan]

These religious zealots don't have to drink alcohol if they don't want to. But they should not be able to prohibit others from doing so. The law gives them way too much power over the rest of us.

For a nation founded upon Christian principles, one would normally expect the legal code to reflect a Christian perspective.

Patriotism and Religion, the last refuge of scoundrels!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

After a quick glance at justinslot's opening post, Ryan's reply post, and some Atlanta specific liquor rules it would seem that Amtrak is simply choosing to ignore the fact that different localities have different rules for Sunday alcohol sales in Georgia. Which is their prerogative of course, but it would be nice if they mentioned this somewhere average people could see it rather than keep it hidden away in their own private rule book. Honestly, even the rule book is kind of vague as to what is allowed and when versus what is not allowed and when.

These religious zealots don't have to drink alcohol if they don't want to. But they should not be able to prohibit others from doing so. The law gives them way too much power over the rest of us.

For a nation founded upon Christian principles, one would normally expect the legal code to reflect a Christian perspective.

Here we go again. If you want to claim our nation was founded on Christian principles (including forced slavery and witch hunts) then it's all yours.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Reminds me of Sunday in Ontario back in the early VIA years riding between Toronto and Montreal. Alcohol could only be sold on Sundays with a two course meal.....so the attendant would bring you cheese....and....crackers!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Reminds me of Sunday in Ontario back in the early VIA years riding between Toronto and Montreal. Alcohol could only be sold on Sundays with a two course meal.....so the attendant would bring you cheese....and....crackers!

Down here in South Texas they still provide you with a basket of chips and salsa or muffins and butter, but it's a small price to pay for a fizzy mimosa on a lazy Sunday morning. After 12:00PM the mandatory food service rule abates but liquor stores are still prevented from opening until Monday. We also have some really draconian public intoxication and sample collection laws thanks to some well meaning but overreaching special interests groups (esp. MADD). I'm all about getting drunk drivers off the road, but I don't agree that being drunk in a bar should be an arrestable offense (unless you act abusive or aggressive toward others), or that sleeping off your buzz in a parked car is the same thing as driving drunk, or that it should be nearly impossible to legally and professionally recover from a non-impact first offense DUI charge.

 

[railiner]

These laws remind me of the time, back in the sixties, I was laying over a few hours between a bus and train connection in Huntington, WVa....

I entered a bar and sat down. The bartender came up to me and asked if I was a 'member'. I shook my head, said I was just passing thru, but he dropped a small two-part card in front of me with a pen, and said to please fill it out. I did, and he took it, tore off my part, and handed it back to me.

He said, welcome...you are now a lifetime member of "The Saddle Club", and then took my beer order....

Apparently, bars were illegal there, but 'private clubs' were okay.....

 

[BCL]

These laws remind me of the time, back in the sixties, I was laying over a few hours between a bus and train connection in Huntington, WVa....

I entered a bar and sat down. The bartender came up to me and asked if I was a 'member'. I shook my head, said I was just passing thru, but he dropped a small two-part card in front of me with a pen, and said to please fill it out. I did, and he took it, tore off my part, and handed it back to me.

He said, welcome...you are now a lifetime member of "The Saddle Club", and then took my beer order....

Apparently, bars were illegal there, but 'private clubs' were okay.....

Still like that in Utah - aka the "Zion Curtain". You want anything higher than 4% Utah beer at a restaurant and you need to be a club member. It might be different in airports though.

I haven't been there in over 10 years, but I remember back then the rules were really bizarre. Apparently now you can be a member at a club for free, but back then they might have required a minimum membership fee and you could buy for up to three "friends". I say that because I heard that some strangers would just chip in with a stranger to get the alcohol. I went to a restaurant that had a club, and there was literally a glass partition between the club area and the rest of the restaurant, but I hear that requirement is gone. Also - something about the mixing of drinks has to be hidden from the sight of children. The bartender needs to hide behind a shield. That might be gone too.

 

[PVD]

There were some counties in Texas that used to do a "club card' routine also. It's been a while, I don't remember the details, training class was in Richardson, not sure where county lines were.

 

[Bob Dylan]

There were some counties in Texas that used to do a "club card' routine also. It's been a while, I don't remember the details, training class was in Richardson, not sure where county lines were.

It was even stranger than that in Texas!
Precints ( voting districts) within counties could decide to be "wet" or "dry" by vote of the people or the whole County could be "Wet" or "Dry".

There was no liquor by the drink at all in Texas, some counties only had beer, some only had package ( liquor ) stores and as you said, some had "private clubs" where you could either bring your own bottle (BYOB) or the club employed "Managers", not bartenders, to serve you.

Once liquor by the drink was passed in the 70s to allow "tourists" to drink in hotels,cafes and clubs, Texas gradually joined the 19th Century when it came to booze!

Vestiges of the Blue Laws and Prohibition still exists and the Liquor Control Board ( Booze Police) is still one of the more corrupt and bizarre agencies in the Lone Star State.

 

[jphjaxfl]

There were some counties in Texas that used to do a "club card' routine also. It's been a while, I don't remember the details, training class was in Richardson, not sure where county lines were.

It was even stranger than that in Texas!
Precints ( voting districts) within counties could decide to be "wet" or "dry" by vote of the people or the whole County could be "Wet" or "Dry".

There was no liquor by the drink at all in Texas, some counties only had beer, some only had package ( liquor ) stores and as you said, some had "private clubs" where you could either bring your own bottle (BYOB) or the club employed "Managers", not bartenders, to serve you.

Once liquor by the drink was passed in the 70s to allow "tourists" to drink in hotels,cafes and clubs, Texas gradually joined the 19th Century when it came to booze!

Vestiges of the Blue Laws and Prohibition still exists and the Liquor Control Board ( Booze Police) is still one of the more corrupt and bizarre agencies in the Lone Star State.

I remember being in Dallas or Houston on business in the 80s when restaurants would give you a separate tab for liquor and for the food you consumed. It meant you had to keep track of extra receipts when submitting T&E statements.

 

[Maverickstation]

Blue Laws against Sunday retail sales still exist in Bergen County, NJ, with even stricter restrictions within Paramus, NJ. The voters have continued to support the Blue Laws.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Triley]

Just looked at the mystical blue book (the operations manual we have to follow onboard) and Georgia (as well as Alabama and several other states) allow no sales at all on Sundays.

You're upset with who exactly? Amtrak, the attendant, or the states?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Just looked at the mystical blue book (the operations manual we have to follow onboard) and Georgia (as well as Alabama and several other states) allow no sales at all on Sundays.

Your book appears to be incorrect, at least when it comes to Georgia. Amtrak may have chosen to group the entire state into one continuos rule, but that's not the same thing as all of Georgia being legally dry on Sunday's.

You're upset with who exactly? Amtrak, the attendant, or the states?

Sounds like he's upset at Amtrak for not matching their rules to the actual law and possibly the attendant for being a little snippy about it.

 

[the_traveler]

I usually order wine with dinner and/or lunch. I have yet to be denied.

I always thought that Amtrak was exempt from state and local laws, and only apply federal laws. Such as marijuana is legal in CO but you can’t take it on the train if you’re (only) riding from Glenwood Springs to Denver (all in CO).

 

[PVD]

Most, but not all, Only as granted by Congress and supported by the courts when/since the hybrid form was created (not the Federal Govt, but owned and controlled by) As an example Amtrak PD operate under both Federal and local laws......their rights differ in different states.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Blue Laws in Bergen county were originally religious in nature, but are now mostly about giving Bergen residents one blessed day a week when they can actually drive around their county in something other than a bumper-to-bumper sea of New York license plates. I think that Bergen countys demographics are not all that chrisitian IIRC- lots of Jews, Muslims, and Indians.

I respect religious freedom. Christians have all the right in the world to not drink on Sundays. They have all the right in the world to go to church. And those Christians that want to break their Christian rules and drink themselves half blind on a Sunday morning should be entitled to do that... and also to receive admonition from their Christian friends who find their behavior inappropriate.

But I object vehemently to people who tell me, a Jew, that I cant eat, drink, and be merry at any private establishment that chooses to allow me to do so, any seven days of the week. I object to Bergens laws that effectively prohibit a religious Jew from operating a store on the weekends, even as I understand the non religious reasons for that law. That is plain old discrimination.

I object to any laws that regulate alcohol consumption for any reason but public safety and enjoyment, which is a concept that applys 7 days a week, and 24 hours of each day. I object to laws that criminalize the concept of public intoxication- if you cant levy a disturbance of the peace violation, then the BAC is entirely irrelevant. If i wish to get smashed, stumble over to a tree, and quietly contemplate life while leaning against it, that is my business.

On the confines of a train, where one is always in public (sleeper passenger to some extent excepted) the rules of alcohol consumption have to have some control, as a disorderly passenger is a problem, and some drunks are quite disorderly.

I can understand laws intended to control people from drinking irresponsibly. I totally disagree with DA on drunk driving laws. When the police catch people in the commission of illegal acts, it is almost never the first crime... merely the first time they are caught. Willingly operating two tons of motor vehicle while impaired, putting other people at risk of GBH and death, even once, demonstrates a sense of responsibility and a decision making paradigm incapable of either driving a car... or being given responsible control of anything else for that matter.

I am a stage four alcoholic. It would be medically unwise for me to quit drinking (although I am working to cut my consumption to a point where I can), and I would honestly be surprised if it was not a major factor in my death. But I dont drink and drive. I dont even let myself be responsible for that decision- my wife has the final approval for my fitness to drive... if I am to impaired to drive, I am certainly too impaired to deem myself so.

The penalty for not being responsible should be such that only an irresponsile person would even think about it.

 

[BCL]

I usually order wine with dinner and/or lunch. I have yet to be denied.

I always thought that Amtrak was exempt from state and local laws, and only apply federal laws. Such as marijuana is legal in CO but you can’t take it on the train if you’re (only) riding from Glenwood Springs to Denver (all in CO).

It's illegal under federal law though. Enforcement is another matter. State/local law enforcement in states where it's been legalized are generally instructed that they are not to enforce federal laws on possession.

 

[Skyline]

The religious zealots CANNOT stop you from drinking in a sleeping compartment, try as they would. And if you're super stealthy, you could probably find a way to a drink in the lounge car or in coach. The small bottles they sell in the lounge car can be purchased for a lot less off-train. They weigh little in your luggage or backpack, and the variety is much better. All you need to buy on the train is a soft drink (if you want a mixer) and ask for a cup with ample ice.

Enjoy!

 

[BCL]

Most, but not all, Only as granted by Congress and supported by the courts when/since the hybrid form was created (not the Federal Govt, but owned and controlled by) As an example Amtrak PD operate under both Federal and local laws......their rights differ in different states.

Kind of a hybrid in California. Amtrak PD is chartered as federal law enforcement, which in my state is required to seek local permission to enforce state/local laws but technically aren't peace officers. However - they are also railroad police, which has a special status in California as private, certified peace officers. Railroad police aren't the only private, certified peace officer status in California though. There's at least one private university that has their privately employed security officers classified as reserve officers with a government law enforcement agency.

 

[Chatter163]

Kind of a hybrid in California. Amtrak PD is chartered as federal law enforcement, which in my state is required to seek local permission to enforce state/local laws but technically aren't peace officers. However - they are also railroad police, which has a special status in California as private, certified peace officers. Railroad police aren't the only private, certified peace officer status in California though. There's at least one private university that has their privately employed security officers classified as reserve officers with a government law enforcement agency.

Can you direct us to a source that states that federal LE officers are required to seek permission from local entities to perform their function?

 

[PVD]

They don't need state permission to carry out a very specific set of functions that they are entitled to as federal leo (Amtrak specific charter). However, quite a bit of what they do is much more practically enforced under a state or local law and handled in local court systems (including states) by local judges and prosecutors, that is why they seek state commissioning. The US attorneys and Federal Courts are not really equipped to handle things like trespass and petty theft or pick pocketing cases. There are lots of other reasons including carrying of weapons off duty and local vehicle and traffic law scenarios where it makes sense. Every state is different.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not to mention that everything goes smoother when ones relationship with the local LEOs is positive (that goes as much for other LEO organizations as it does private citizens and businesses)