The Diner-Lite coming to a Train Near You

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Windy City LSA said:
AmtrakFan said:
Folks, The Diner-Lite that everyone was talking about is finally here here are all the dates they will be going into effect and this could be the final straw for LD Trains.

Feb 15th

#21-22, #58-59 ("reintroduced")
Hello. I'm a bit unclear on the "diner-lite" term I've seen tossed around here. Are you referring to pre-plated meals, or the new equipment that combines a lounge and diner in one car?? Being based in CHI, my only concerns are 21/22, 5/6. and 7/8. And being a LSA, I'm primarily concerned with labor cuts in that craft. I was on a training trip on 21/22 in December and the pre-plated crap had just started. I was on 58/59 last week exploring the NOL crew base considering a transfer, and the food looks as bad as ever. The crews are less than enthusiastic about having to offer this garbage to passengers. I had lots of time to chat with them round-trip. It's sad, really. It seems folks genuinely look forward to eating on the train. In my honest opinion, the vast majority of the food in both cars is awful. Aside from a rubber bratwurst I had 2 bites of and threw in the garbage, I just drank water for the 19 hour trip.

Just curious about this. I'm out of the loop since on furlough, so this forum is about my only source of information! :) To the poster wishing for a furlough...I wish I could give you mine. I don't want it.
Hi Windy City LSA,

The Diner-Lite will be the pre-plated meals cooked ahead of time but heated on the train and the cars will be combinied with Diner-Lounge. I do agree with you about the awfulness of the Cafe Cars on one instance the Food was so crummy in the Cafe on the Now defunct International that several people ordered pizza's in Sarnia, ON. Hope this helps.
 
AmtrakFan said:
Hi Windy City LSA,The Diner-Lite will be the pre-plated Meals similar to something found on airplanes before 9/11 but prorably just as bad and the cars will be combinied with Diner-Lounge. I do agree with you about the awfulness of the Cafe Cars on one instance the Food was so crummy in the Cafe on the Now defunct International that several people ordered pizza's in Sarnia, ON.
I thought the Diner-lite was simply using the dining cars as- is to serve the pre-plated meals and that the actual changing of the cars was a seperate issue.

Not true?

Redesigning cars would cost way more than simply replacing the food service.
 
Not if it ment the elimination of one car. It sounds like the lounge cars will be retrofitted for this dual service-snack bar on top level and diner seating on the lower level. This is the idea of the Honorable Norman Mineta, Secretary of the Department of Transportation.
 
Isn't this the food service that has been on the Cardinal for some time? A Viewliner lounge car was used, with the smoking section removed and replaced with tables for dining.
 
Chatter163 said:
Isn't this the food service that has been on the Cardinal for some time? A Viewliner lounge car was used, with the smoking section removed and replaced with tables for dining.
No such thing as a Viewliner lounge car.
 
x-press said:
I have been slack-jawed for some time over the rave reviews of dining car food.  It makes me wonder where some people normally eat, that they would think the mediocre-at-best Amtrak diner food is that good!  Don't get me wrong, it's usually not awful (though I had some rubber beef medallions a few years ago which were) and occasionally even above average . . . but usually it's just mediocre.
Iceberg lettuce salad?

Generic, unwarmed dinner rolls?  Sometimes not even particularly fresh.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's usually the chefs' fault.  I just think it's largely lousy ingredients.

Also, I suspect a lot of food is already prepared off-train, and has been for years.  A (very good) breakfast quiche from a couple years ago was surely too complex to actually make from scratch on the train.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting this new service will be good, either.  Knowing Amtrak's history, they'll probably end up having 12 employees sitting around a single microwave heating up lean cuisine . . . but they've still got to try!

JPS
I'll take a moment to clarify this poster's (x-press) opinion from an employee point of view. They make some very good points which I will elaborate farther so we all know there is a big difference in what we have now and the new Diner Lite fixing to roll out in its second phase.

When I first started at Amtrak some five years ago, all the food was prepared fully on board from scratch with the help of certain items such as instant grits, bag salad mix, bagged garlic mashed potatoes (which were awesome weren't they bat51?....LOL) etc. All of the meat items had to be prepared. Steaks had to be marinated, half chickens had to be thawed, cleaned, and seasoned, etc. I really miss the BBQ half chickens we used to serve on "Silver Service!" But when Amtrak went to the current "regionalized" menu on the certain cycle, only a handful of items remained fresh prepared on board. Items such as the lamb shanks, and the quarter chickens then came in boil-in-a-bag type. The only items which are fresh prepared are eggs and pancakes at breakfast, the entree salad at lunch, and the steaks at diner. Everything else is microwave, boil-in-bag, warmer drawer prepared food! The quality of course deminshed a little (or a lot depending on which crew you catch) in my personal opinion. A lot of the chefs and food specialists I work with will doctor up the already prepared items to make them better or to simply put their own touch to it. My old crew did this, and we rarely ever got complaints about our product and service in the diner. I will attest I was rewarded very well by "gratuities" left on the table after the end of each meal. But I have noticed a difference after Amtrak switched to the current "regionalized" dining car service from the fresh prepared product I started out with.

But with the new Diner Lite, there will be NOTHING prepared on board at all! It is all brought to the train already prepared, and heated either by microwave or convection oven! A good example of Diner Lite (though not exactly like it) and its process can be found on the "Cascades" service in the Pacific Northwest. I was not dissastified with my meals at all, though I could tell a difference in the food and it's quality compared to a fresh cooked meal. The meals are heated by a chef in the back/behind the counter, and an LSA runs the dining area and handles beverages. Still a lot for one person on the floor if you ask me. But I have no complaints with the food itself. I can tolerate the "airline style" food service! I traveled in coach. Now the question is, will a 1st class sleeper passenger be happy with this style compared what they used to? If they are regular riders, probably not. If they have never been on a train before, then it probably won't matter especially as long as their meals remain compliments of Amtrak. But in the long run the sleeper services are only a mute point, anyway! Diner Lite is coming, it's already a reality. We are past phase one! Phase two is where it is impented in the existing equipment. Phase three will occur when the refurbished equipment becomes available, and it is turn switched out. At least the train is still running! As one poster said earlier, "we shall see."

Now I am going to challenge you on the "12 employees sitting around a single microwave" remark!!!! I don't know about the Mid Western and Western trains, but on the East Coast Service we don't have even 12 OBS employees on the whole train, let alone the five who work in the diner now! All we have on the FL trains in the diner are a chef, LSA, food specialist, and two waiters. They wanna cut at least the food specialist and one of the waiters!!!! That is a lot of jobs! It is not gonna enhance customer service at all! So don't go there with the possible ideas and thoughts that we are like "construction workers," where you have one working and eleven supervising! That isn't even THAT BAD in management either (speaking in defense of them, too)! :lol: :rolleyes: <_< OBS...
 
Like it's a new development. Long before construction unions, Theodore Roosevelt, looking over skyrocketing costs for the Panama canal, said, "Can't they lean on something cheaper?"
 
The Empire Builder ("Empire" could refer to the Empire corridor in New York, but I believe the train you are referring to is the Empire Builder, which runs west from Chicago) will retain its "old-style" dining car service. It and the Auto Train are the only ones that will not be switching over to the new Simplified Dining Service.
 
Amtrak OBS Employee said:
I'll take a moment to clarify this poster's (x-press) opinion from an employee point of view. They make some very good points which I will elaborate farther so we all know there is a big difference in what we have now and the new Diner Lite fixing to roll out in its second phase.When I first started at Amtrak some five years ago, all the food was prepared fully on board from scratch with the help of certain items such as instant grits, bag salad mix, bagged garlic mashed potatoes (which were awesome weren't they bat51?....LOL) etc. All of the meat items had to be prepared. Steaks had to be marinated, half chickens had to be thawed, cleaned, and seasoned, etc. I really miss the BBQ half chickens we used to serve on "Silver Service!" But when Amtrak went to the current "regionalized" menu on the certain cycle, only a handful of items remained fresh prepared on board. Items such as the lamb shanks, and the quarter chickens then came in boil-in-a-bag type. The only items which are fresh prepared are eggs and pancakes at breakfast, the entree salad at lunch, and the steaks at diner. Everything else is microwave, boil-in-bag, warmer drawer prepared food! The quality of course deminshed a little (or a lot depending on which crew you catch) in my personal opinion. A lot of the chefs and food specialists I work with will doctor up the already prepared items to make them better or to simply put their own touch to it. My old crew did this, and we rarely ever got complaints about our product and service in the diner. I will attest I was rewarded very well by "gratuities" left on the table after the end of each meal. But I have noticed a difference after Amtrak switched to the current "regionalized" dining car service from the fresh prepared product I started out with.

But with the new Diner Lite, there will be NOTHING prepared on board at all! It is all brought to the train already prepared, and heated either by microwave or convection oven! A good example of Diner Lite (though not exactly like it) and its process can be found on the "Cascades" service in the Pacific Northwest. I was not dissastified with my meals at all, though I could tell a difference in the food and it's quality compared to a fresh cooked meal. The meals are heated by a chef in the back/behind the counter, and an LSA runs the dining area and handles beverages. Still a lot for one person on the floor if you ask me. But I have no complaints with the food itself. I can tolerate the "airline style" food service! I traveled in coach. Now the question is, will a 1st class sleeper passenger be happy with this style compared what they used to? If they are regular riders, probably not. If they have never been on a train before, then it probably won't matter especially as long as their meals remain compliments of Amtrak. But in the long run the sleeper services are only a mute point, anyway! Diner Lite is coming, it's already a reality. We are past phase one! Phase two is where it is impented in the existing equipment. Phase three will occur when the refurbished equipment becomes available, and it is turn switched out.  At least the train is still running! As one poster said earlier, "we shall see."

Now I am going to challenge you on the "12 employees sitting around a single microwave" remark!!!!  I don't know about the Mid Western and Western trains, but on the East Coast Service we don't have even 12 OBS employees on the whole train, let alone the five who work in the diner now! All we have on the FL trains in the diner are a chef, LSA, food specialist, and two waiters. They wanna cut at least the food specialist and one of the waiters!!!! That is a lot of jobs! It is not gonna enhance customer service at all! So don't go there with the possible ideas and thoughts that we are like "construction workers," where you have one working and eleven supervising! That isn't even THAT BAD in management either (speaking in defense of them, too)!   :lol:   :rolleyes:   <_<   OBS...
Hi OBS,

I appreciate the insights on today's dining car services. I do seem to remember being more impressed by Amtrak meals on my first trips, years ago. I always assumed it was just because I was younger and less familiar with good food, but maybe it really was better.

My main point in all this is simply that I think people are getting a little "overly dramatic" with this particular change. I hear more "outrage" over this RELATIVELY minor change than I heard over:

A) Three Rivers cancellation

B Federal losing its sleeper

C) MASSIVE cancellations due to bad-ordering of cars this winter

D) Continuing problems with frozen toilets on the single-level fleet every winter

E) Late departures from initial stations

And probably many more I can't think of now. Folks, we are having trouble just RUNNING the trains on this system! They are barely functioning! Yet the biggest complaint is that instead of preparing MOST food off-train, they will now be preparing ALL of it off-train. <_<

Seems to me, based on what OBS has told us, the time for histrionics over dining car changes was several years ago, when the whole prepare-food-off-train movement was in its infancy. That train "done left the station."

As far as the "12-employee" comment, I assure you I was exaggerating to be funny, OBS. Honestly, with a few exceptions years ago, I'm quite impressed with onboard staff during my annual Capitol Limited trip. My impression of many/most Amtrak failures is that they are management-caused.

Keep up the good work. I always have and always will support passenger rail with my vote and my wallet.

JPS
 
AmtrakFan said:
Feb 15th#21-22, #58-59 ("reintroduced")

#1-2

#29-30
This says the Capitol Limited is already a diner-lite (as of Feb 15th). Does that mean it is now running without a dining car? Anyone seen this firsthand?
 
I think something needs to be clarified here as there is apparently some confusion.

"Diner Lite" is officially known as "Simplified Dining Service." This is an internal change in how meals are prepared and served to passengers in the dining car. This is not the same as the combined diner-lounge proposal. That is very likely coming in the future. However, for the time being, separate dining and lounge cars will continue to be operated.

Simplified Dining Service is intended to reduce costs while not being evident to the passenger that any changes have been made (though it will be obvious on several counts). I haven't tried the food, and thus can't comment on its quality, but the overall passenger experience in the dining car should remain largely the same.

Some time later this year or early next year, it is possible that some trains that operate with separate dining and lounge cars will have both functions served by a single, converted diner-lounge (on Superliner trains, this would be based on the sightseer lounge). However, that hasn't happened yet.
 
rmadisonwi said:
I think something needs to be clarified here as there is apparently some confusion.
"Diner Lite" is officially known as "Simplified Dining Service." This is an internal change in how meals are prepared and served to passengers in the dining car. This is not the same as the combined diner-lounge proposal. That is very likely coming in the future. However, for the time being, separate dining and lounge cars will continue to be operated.

Simplified Dining Service is intended to reduce costs while not being evident to the passenger that any changes have been made (though it will be obvious on several counts). I haven't tried the food, and thus can't comment on its quality, but the overall passenger experience in the dining car should remain largely the same.

Some time later this year or early next year, it is possible that some trains that operate with separate dining and lounge cars will have both functions served by a single, converted diner-lounge (on Superliner trains, this would be based on the sightseer lounge). However, that hasn't happened yet.
That is what I thought and asked for that info in a previous post in the thread. However, AmtrackFan said "Nope they are eliminating one car. The Lounges are being retrofitted and some Diners will be as well."

So you are saying that the dates given at the start of this thread are merely the start dates for the Simplified Dining.

That is what I thought, and I can live with that.
 
Amtrak OBS Employee said:
But with the new Diner Lite, there will be NOTHING prepared on board at all! It is all brought to the train already prepared, and heated either by microwave or convection oven! A good example of Diner Lite (though not exactly like it) and its process can be found on the "Cascades" service in the Pacific Northwest. I was not dissastified with my meals at all, though I could tell a difference in the food and it's quality compared to a fresh cooked meal. The meals are heated by a chef in the back/behind the counter, and an LSA runs the dining area and handles beverages. Still a lot for one person on the floor if you ask me. But I have no complaints with the food itself. I can tolerate the "airline style" food service! I traveled in coach. Now the question is, will a 1st class sleeper passenger be happy with this style compared what they used to? If they are regular riders, probably not. If they have never been on a train before, then it probably won't matter especially as long as their meals remain compliments of Amtrak. But in the long run the sleeper services are only a mute point, anyway! Diner Lite is coming, it's already a reality. We are past phase one! Phase two is where it is impented in the existing equipment. Phase three will occur when the refurbished equipment becomes available, and it is turn switched out. At least the train is still running! As one poster said earlier, "we shall see."
Hey guys, I already answered this question for y'all in this posting! To clarify, here's more....

Diner-Lite is indeed the internal Amtrak term for the "Simplified Dining Service" as rmadisonwi posted. However, in the long run it will all be in ONE separate car! Though, at this time it is being implented in the existing equipment.

Phase one : training the crews and educating several key management on the new procedures, then testing occured on the "CONO" and the "Texas Eagle."

Phase two : implement Diner Lite into the existing equipment prior to changeover to the refurbished equipment when it is turned out ready for use. This is to comply with the Congressional mandates as far as the timeline is concerned!

Phase three : is the finale when the food service aspect will all be operated in one car (two when needed according to the memos) on each train as the new refurbished equipment is rolled out!

Then after all this is said and done, they will begin to focus on the first class sleeper services in order to comply with Congressional mandates!

There are two trains (Empire Builder & Auto train) which are safe from the reforms right now, but that remains to be seen. Not even any rumors of that just yet that I know of.

OBS...
 
These reductions in service are what one gets when one relies upon an inaccurate system for producing those numbers. The RPS (see October 2002 TRAINS magazine) may rig the numbers to show profit in the short haul corridors, despite independent analysis indacting that it is the First Class passengers who are subsidizing the coach passengers, not the other way around.
 
Hi Everyone!

I'm back from my family visit in Florida and ready to take on the forum once more!!! No need to fear, trainboy is here!!! :D :lol: :)

It appears that OBS Employee has covered this topic very well, especially from the Amtrak labor and front management point of view. Thanks to AmtrakFan for getting this started! :rolleyes:

I don't have much to add other than for those who aren't big on dining car meals or believe that these changes are not bad for the railroad have missed the big picture. The simplified dining car service is that, SIMPLIFIED LABOR, regarding the process of taking stock and turning it into a marketable product or entree. As many have known for a couple of years now, the "brown and serve" system has taken over the bulk of the dining car's stock inventory since the introduction of the uniform national menu and modified when David Gunn insisted that some variation be added, so came the cycle system for the different routes.

The big picture is that Diner-lite and the eventual introduction of the single-car food service program is an OMEN of the serious threat of the abolishment of operating long-distance trains in the role of Amtrak and the passenger railroad system. For those who've traveled on Amtrak over the past 15 to 20 years have seen all sorts of "reform" methods to "improve" and "make the railroad more self-sufficient." Reforms of the past include, but are not limited to, the family style dining program, or "slop and drop"as it was known by crews and long-time Amtrak passengers, buffet and table cars used on the Auto Train and the notorious "china-free" trains using an assortment of fine plastics and styrofoam plates and cups. "Picknick" style was the name I believe used on the Silver Service trains back then.

As most of this forum's members have ridden an Amtrak long-distance train in the last year, you know that all of these previous "reforms" disappeared when they caused massive passenger abandonment by most Americans, who used their word of mouth, and told all their friends and family "never again." Over time, the "reformers" hired at Amtrak to implement the changes were replaced by other managers that were charged with "improving" passenger rail. The building and introduction of the Viewliner sleeper is by far the most significant remnant of this brief period in Amtrak's history. In, in 1997, when Congress mandated that Amtrak be self-sufficient by 2002, Amtrak's CEOs Tom Downs and George Warrington had an about face policy to service improvement and development and began a process of deferred maintenance and the implementation of "cost efficiency" that ultimately brought the railroad into the verge of implosion due to massive debt and an infrastucture that was in such poor shape it was unreliable at best. In addition, Amtrak had its round of train-offs with the truncation of the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. However, in their defense, they did protect the level of on-board labor that is the core component of running an effective and safe long-distance train compared to the current Board of Directors and Acting CEO David Hughes.

One of the best examples of Amtrak's great self-sufficency reforms was the the "brand" change with a new logo, purchase of Acela "high-speed" trainsets and the marketing of an Amtrak system that simply ignored the company outside the Northeast. Quite frankly, I'm surprised the long distance trains survived the Warrington adminstration as his business plan was simply to turn "Amtrak" into "Acela" supported by short distance corridors to Newport News, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and other points in the Northeast. Without the regional business offices to develop product lines and market routes and services, Amtrak became a big "unknown" in the minds of the vast majority of Americans who travel outside the Northeast Corridor. With the exception of a few state-sponsored train systems, Amtrak fell into an abyss of not knowing what it was suppost to do. Running trains seemed too much for its management, let alone looking for ways to improve the company.

The fact that more and more Americans want to find alternatives to rising gasoline prices and service strapped airlines in their choice of travel is the major reason why these threats to Amtrak have resurfaced. In Amtrak's 30-plus year history, Amtrak has never faced such an assult as these regarding the budgets and appropriations of 2004, 2005 and 2006. Even with Ronald Regan making his infamous claims and "burning cash" campaign advertisments, Amtrak always had "checks and balances" regarding the White House and the Congress having a pro-labor party in charge of the national public policy agenda. Now with an anti-Amtrak president with an anti-labor Congress, Amtrak management is faced with the fact that its time is up maintaining the status quo and crying "poor mouth" to run the trains while bilking the company's annual federal appropriation with extremely high salaries and a level of people in management versus labor for a company of Amtrak's size. Amtrak's Board of Directors is charged with the task of shutting down the company that has refused to abolish its expensive labor capital and excessive management layers. When Americans began to ride Amtrak trains that were more efficient and were beginning to restore a sense of "tradition" to the levels of service provided on board the trains, the Board bulked. Gunn was making it work, at that wasn't their definition of "reform." So he was fired, the "empire building" management corps began to squeeze the train budgets to protect their cushy jobs, and so here we are with diner-lite and the eventual abolishment of sleeping cars on the trains.

Diner-lite is bigger than "food service," it respresents an Amtrak that is actually going to abolish the long distance train. With "authorization" from Congress, Amtrak has been given the "mandate" to do things that it would have never considered due to the political fallout and "shut it down" cry from the Congressman and Senators from the states outside of the Northeast United States about funding a federal agency that doesn't serve the whole country. Diner-lite is the final straw the the long-distance trains have in order to remain. Even with extensive labor cuts, with the loss of revenue due to disatisfied passengers and the eventual loss of sleeping car revenue, which WILL take a major hit with this program, is the significant revenue stream needed to "save" the train in the eyes of the Inspector General's office. With the White House now seeking to see Amtrak end sleeping car service due to significant "subsidy per passenger" the President cites in his Department of Transportation 2007 Budget Message is just the next chapter for the "big picture."

I usually end my notes with "I hope I'm wrong," but I won't this time because I have no doubt in my mind that the end is near for the long distance trains the Amtrak we all know and love. Best wishes to those who remain connected financially connected to Amtrak, but it's time to seek a new path in your life. For those who wish to ride trains other than those that are in the existing federally determined corridors, your time grows short. With major service cuts, reduced frequencies and elimination of certain routes and the mandate to abolish discouts, riding the train will become even more difficult for those who use it often and want something other than a long car ride or a service-free coach airline trip. <_<
 
What baggage car? We're getting rid of those too!

Hobos have a better chance getting a "bed" and a "meal" in a TTX Railbox boxcar than on board Amtrak when it's all said and done! :blink: :lol: <_<
 
Mr. Henderson,

Nice to see you back. When was the Slop and Drop used on Auto Train I seem like I can't remember that. I was surprised myself that Amtrak even made it past 2002 with the Stupid Growth Stragity Plan that's what I call it. I feel that LD Trains are gone they will be bye-bye at the end of the summer so stock up on film, snacks, lawn chairs, everything for final runs.
 
It never was. Slop and drop was used on the Silver Service trains between WAS and NYP and JAX and MIA. It was designed around the concept that Amtrak could base all of the food specialists out of JAX and turn them at WAS. I believe the second waiter did the same. With only three people in the diner between these city pairs, Amtrak couldn't serve its traditional menu. What they did instead was serve a "family style" meal. This usually consisted of a BBQ or pasta entree served with a side item, salad, dinner roll and one type of dessert. Entrees and the side dish were placed in the center of the table and the passengers sharing a single table then helped themselves using serving spoons and tongs distributed with the food. Salads were served in individual bowls. There was only one entree, side and salad dressing choice, so if you didn't like the selection of the day, then you were out of luck. This was a particular problem with people with certain dietary and religious issues that made this program a real setback in ridership, especially with the South Florida sleeper passenger market. Secondly, the family style food system in place in the dining car didn't go too well with the FDA inspectors which required people to handle other people's food by using the common tongs and spoons. Although such systems are in use with buffet resturants today, when passengers in the diner were cross contaminating the serving bowls because passengers weren't being issued a new eating plate each time they dished their food onto it. Although the FDA thing was a minor issue, the thing that ultimately brought down slop and drop was the fact that way too many people filed major complaints that they didn't even have a choice what the entree of the day was and the lack of food stock to provide a "option" for those with dietary issues eating BBQ pork for dinner (the most common entree served during the "family style" dining period). With the diner-lite of today, Amtrak learned that the way to avoid this problem is to offer multiple entree choices, but the concept of "take it or leave it" due to the fact that meals are preplated and already set for sale makes the problem of resturant style mix-and-match ordering leaving something to be desired when you go to eat in the diner.

The buffet cars and associated table car were used on Auto Train before it was converted into a Superliner Train. The food was good on the buffet car, but required fewer OBS employees as the food was prepared off the train and served out of warming tables in the "kitchen" car. Today, with Auto Train having its unique and independent dining car menu and commissary, very few items on that train are pre-cooked anymore. Most food is prepared fresh and is by far the best dining experience available on Amtrak, before and after diner-lite takes hold on the rest of the system. <_<
 
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