The Diner-Lite coming to a Train Near You

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Diner-Lite has me concerned, especially the idea of eating out of the Lounge down the road and the symbolic "beginning of the end" for LD trains. As sleeper passenger the idea of me paying for the price of room should include certain qualities like a full service diner with sit down service. An Amfleet II Lounge leaves a lot to be desired as-is, I sure as hell wouldn't trade a seat in the diner for a seat in the lounge during meal time. What would make more sense is using something like a twin unit diner on a Single Level Train to serve as both the Diner and the Lounge. It would combine the food prep into one car while not taking away from the space or atmosphere of the diner. If they go with this stupid idea they should at least get a Viewliner Sightseer Lounge to maintain some quality of the Food Service car and enhance the scenery on the long neglected Single Level Trains.

On a side note: Didn't Silver Service also use the Buffet Cars until approx 1995-1996?
 
I agree with some points here. The firing of David Gunn was strange timing, politically unpopular, and didn't make much sense. Most pundits seem to think it was a personality issue, and to be sure, David Gunn seemed like a crusty old guy who didn't care one bit about who he offended.

Other things I'm hearing don't stand up to logic.

What's with this "omen" talk? Diner-lite is not an "omen" of anything except refurbished dining cars/lounges. Frankly, if they really were so hell-bent on discontinuing the trains, they wouldn't be spending significant money on refurbishing the fleet just before scrapping it. When those in power want to cut long distance trains, do you know what they do? They just cut them. There's no need for an "omen," or trickery or conspiracy or anything else. The Desert Wind, Pioneer, and Three Rivers are GONE. The Silver Palm's truncated, Federal and LSL Boston Section lost sleepers. There was no big conspiracy needed to get rid of them, either.

Are there people fighting to abolish the long distance trains? Of course. They're not "shadow warriors," though. Wendell Cox travels the country spouting nonsense, Joe Vranich has books and a blog, Norman Mineta is Secretary of Transportation and recently made a bizarre nation-wide tour screaming about how awful it is that we spend the national equivalent of pocket change on long distance passenger rail. I've got a lot of unflattering things to say about them, but I can't accuse them of being secretive.

Amtrak IS at a crossroads. Amtrak long distance trains ARE in danger. I'm just saying we need to keep things in perspective, and pick battles to fight that actually mean something. They stopped putting mints on my pillow in the sleepers a few years ago . . . NOT a big deal! Trains breaking down, toilets freezing up, cars sidelined by the FRA, Three Rivers discontinuation, catastrophic freight RR timekeeping, a transportation secretary who openly campaigns against long-distance rail . . . they sound like bigger deals to me.

The biggest threat to long distance trains at this point is irrelevance, which is what they'll be if we can't find a way to get them running SOMEWHAT on time and cut costs.

JPS
 
[Frankly, if they really were so hell-bent on discontinuing the trains, they wouldn't be spending significant money on refurbishing the fleet just before scrapping it.]

This is a point well made. At a time when Congress seems to be keeping a close eye on Amtrak, why would they be throwing good money after bad. Forget about the diner lite and focus on keeping sleeping cars and LD trains. That's the real challenge in my mind.
 
I appreciate the concern that the issues plaguing Amtrak: poor OTP, poor management of cancelled trains due to maintenance and the lack of overall physical infrastructure of Amtrak's cars and right-of-way are all valid reasons why I, and many others, should be upset over with Amtrak versus diner-lite.

I guess my reason for my doom-and-gloom outlook for Amtrak regarding diner-lite isn't so much the fact that the food service will change, but rather the one specific thing Amtrak has total direct control over has finally been broken and the choices that Amtrak has made in the name of "reform" have caused huge losses for the railroad is terms of passenger ridership and customer loyalty.

Poor on-time performance is the major issue that leads to passengers saying "never again" when it comes to Amtrak. We all know about freight railroads and their politics regarding incentives, true cost of running Amtrak trains, etc. Amtrak does have a place in the issue of OTP, but doesn't have the legislative or executive support to really carry-out a plan to deal with this issue. That should be an Amtrak corporate priority when it comes to their reauthorization bills, but the management is too focused on protecting themselves versus the company's and its customers' best interest. As for equipment, well, quite frankly, that's Amtrak's fault. Period. Viewliners are, and were, pieces of junk when they were introuduced over 10 years ago. Using Amfleet cars to operate long-distance trains with that were specifically designed for the NEC has run these cars into the ground. Compounded with a lack of a meaningful maintenance plan due to overall rolling stock shortages systemwide, the entire single-level train fleet is being held together with duck-tape and baling wire and, as we saw last week, is on the verge of falling apart beyond repair.

You talk about a crossroads. That's the omen I speak of. In Amtrak's last 20 years, everytime it came to a crossroads, the company ALWAYS made a choice that has caused more harm than good, if any good came at all. Amtrak management today is at the crossroads of looking at three major issues: lack of viable equipment, the operating relationship with the freight railroads that continue to grow beyond their current capacities and the reality that the government is truly interested in "reforming" Amtrak.

Equipment: there is no money to buy and make ready viable single-level railroad coaches, sleepers and diners. Without a ready stock of equipment, management will take the easy road. Truncate routes versus seeking alternatives. Easy, cheap and non-controversial in the current political arena outside the NEC.

On-time Performance: the railroads want more from Amtrak regarding the cost of running trains, especially on time. That won't happen. Amtrak doesn't have the money. Even the friendly Amtrak railroads are facing the issue that increased traffic is forcing them to make decisions regarding what customers they wish to keep and seek. Every railroad will seek to drop Amtrak if running their trains forces even the friendly freight railroads to make such choices. Amtrak's decision: truncate routes that are under stress from freight congestion. Won't seek alternative routes as the company is prohibited in creating "new routes." When a train gets cut, the service is gone.

The Government: The biggest problem of all. It is stated that if Amtrak wanted to cut the trains, they do it without the bells and whistles of modifying equipment, making service changes, etc. Well, that can't be done. Believe it or not, the most cost effective and least expensive way to kill the labor issue is to suffocate the labor force in a slow and steady pace. If Amtrak were to just cut the service in one big swipe, you'd get the issue of C-2. I've already explained what this is in a previous post. If you cut the service in a systematic way, as with the diner-lite, phased in sleeper abolishments and elimination of train attendants in the coaches, you take people off the payroll a little at a time. Slowly but surely, more and more people get off the Amtrak payroll through furlough without being eligable for C-2 because the company hasn't "cut a train." Then, when you get it down to about 100 people out of the 10,000 that exist now (mostly LSAs working the single food service car), you can change the rules with the Railway Labor Act (since the last remaining people are not even enough to get the union's attention, let alone Congress). This is the plan. No secret agenda. The President's own budget message for FY 07 makes the comment that 900 million is to "manage the reforms already in place."

That's the OMEN I speak of. When you have the attitude that "it's just diner food," then the government and the Amtrak Board wins. You give them an inch, they'll take a mile. Then next year they'll say "it's just checked baggage," Amtrak supporters say "well we still have the train!" Then they soon come after your sleeping car, then the Amtrak passengers riding on corridor trains get polled: Would you support cutting sleepers for a cheaper fare between WAS and NYP? They say "Yes," Amtrak cuts the sleepers in the name of "economic logic" as it has been stated for its primary customer base, at least based on the books it submits to Congress and the DOT Inspector General. Show losses in the sleepers, they'll be gone even if they bring in about a 1/3 of the company's total revenue.

This is the agenda in place. Amtrak has already been to the crossroads, the road they've chosen is the one listed above. No secrets. Managers within the company already know this; they've been threatened to keep their mouths shut about the whole thing so those who don't believe such things are possible will continue to doubt the company's true agenda about shutdown. Diner-lite is just the first of many "public" shows of the company's plan to end the long distance trains. They're hoping that people won't complain or make a big specticle over it. They just want to run the passengers off and quietly, without press, have train cancellations for "various" reasons and let the trains ride into the sunset, just like the Sunset has east of NOL. They dissappear, the bulk of America don't really know it happened and as time passes, few will take note that the trains just don't come back. It's the perfect way to end a government program: no press, no elected officials making political promises to "save the trains," and it just goes away without fanfare.
 
And folks, THIS IS PRECISELY the BIG PICTURE we are illustrating to you!

Sadly, many folks can't see the writing on the wall! The Amtrak as we know it today is nearing the end of its trip! Passenger rail is about to take a whole different approach, hopefully something similar to pre 1960's but I doubt it. I personally believe the government will begin to heavily subsidize passenger rail when private enterprise is operating it (as we all know it cannot profit on the bottom line). The last time I checked, this is what the current government wants. We each still have an obligation to hold our elected officials accountable at the polls! If we don't, we won't have passenger rail at all!! OBS...
 
We're not that far apart on this.

I DO see the writing on the wall. The vacation I had planned for six months got cancelled the day before by Amtrak dysfunction . . . couldn't get much clearer than that.

My only difference is that I don't see "diner-lite" as a symbol of it.

The claim that "next it'll be checked baggage, then sleepers," may be true, or it may be "half-true."

If they had ELIMINATED all food on the trains, I would screeching bloody murder. So would NARP. So would congress.

If they try to ELIMINATE sleeper service, all of the above will be true as well. If they try to CUT COSTS on sleepers (either by reducing staff or raising prices and adding perks like the Empire Builder), then I'm willing to give it a try. Will the good folks on this board be mourning that "my bed used to be made up by an attendant ON the train, now it's made up by an attendant OFF the train! It's just not the same!"

If they try to ELIMINATE checked baggage EVERYWHERE I would be against it. If they try to cut costs by, for example, eliminating it on some of the lighter-used western trains that have more lower-level-superliner luggage space and maintaining it on the single level fleet, it's worth a try!

There have been all kinds of warning signs since the dark days of the Warrington Administration. I just don't think this is one of them.

JPS
 
Personally the writing is really on the wall everywhere especially in Chicago trains are leaving without the right cars or lack of cars the Cardinal left without 1 Sleeper and Coach Thursday that shows that writing is on the wall. I don't think Congress would scream bloody murder when Dining and Sleeper service is cut. What people can't see or don't know that these are massive warning sings about the future of Passenger Rail it is simple that Amtrak doesn't care about Trains outside the Northeast Corridor maybe with the expection of some corridor Trains.
 
Thanks Madison. With all this talk, I got confused. I also couldn't find the number of our train. So, we still get "decent food", huh?
 
I was thinking since they are cutting so much, are they also cutting safety features - such as safe tracks, employees, etc.?
 
Employees aren't exactly "safety features" :)

Amtrak can't do away with Federally mandated safety provisions. You'll be safe.
 
x-press said:
We're not that far apart on this.
I DO see the writing on the wall. The vacation I had planned for six months got cancelled the day before by Amtrak dysfunction . . . couldn't get much clearer than that.

My only difference is that I don't see "diner-lite" as a symbol of it.

The claim that "next it'll be checked baggage, then sleepers," may be true, or it may be "half-true."

If they had ELIMINATED all food on the trains, I would screeching bloody murder. So would NARP. So would congress.

If they try to ELIMINATE sleeper service, all of the above will be true as well. If they try to CUT COSTS on sleepers (either by reducing staff or raising prices and adding perks like the Empire Builder), then I'm willing to give it a try. Will the good folks on this board be mourning that "my bed used to be made up by an attendant ON the train, now it's made up by an attendant OFF the train! It's just not the same!"

If they try to ELIMINATE checked baggage EVERYWHERE I would be against it. If they try to cut costs by, for example, eliminating it on some of the lighter-used western trains that have more lower-level-superliner luggage space and maintaining it on the single level fleet, it's worth a try!

There have been all kinds of warning signs since the dark days of the Warrington Administration. I just don't think this is one of them.

JPS
I am glad you at least see the writing on the wall. But I think the amtrak obs employee and trainboy325 seem to get the big picture here. I don't understand how you cannot see the diner lite program as a threat to the overall big picture. I guess when the train is totally gone you might get it!

My opinion on this is nothing Amtrak does to reform itself is really any good for it that I have seen. They do more harm than good as the two employees posting here would know. And I agree with them.

I have to make this little point! First I lost sleeper and dining car service on my local Amtrak service. But at least there was a train running and I was able to live with that. But now I have lost my local Amtrak service to a stupid bus instead of a train. So what's the point of even trying to go by train anymore?
 
Guest said:
I have to make this little point! First I lost sleeper and dining car service on my local Amtrak service. But at least there was a train running and I was able to live with that. But now I have lost my local Amtrak service to a stupid bus instead of a train. So what's the point of even trying to go by train anymore?
Well howdy there. I believe I know who you are. Anyway, I understand what you're saying, and you have pretty much illustrated in your own way just how Amtrak does things such as this. When they plan on cutting a service or some other change is made, they do so by taking steps. And that is just what they did with the "Palmetto" service back in the day it operated all the way to MIA (I assume you are talking about that train if you're are who I think you are). At first the "Palmetto" actually operated the way it does now (NYP-SAV) before it was extended to JAX, then to TPA, and later renamed the "Silver Palm" and operated MIA to NYP with FL OBS crews since the TPA days. I miss that train on that CSX's S-line route a lot. It was my regular job for a long time, and even after it lost its sleeper and diner it was still a good train to work. OBS...
 
AMTRAK diner food has been nothing to crow about since I've been riding the Starlight sleepers over the past ten or so years, with one cross country (Zephyr & Lakeshore). But the experience of "dinner in the diner" - white tablecloths, silver, decent dinnerware and good if harried service - while zipping (more or less) past the scenery has always been a high point of the trip. Of course, now the Starlight is using paper overlays on the linen and occasionally paper napkins. As yet - January - no beautiful lifetime plastic plates or eating tools.

The Pacific Parlor car on that train 14 was "out of service for repairs" - apparently no spares available. Considering the premium that sleeper passengers pay, this was outrageous. And of course, no refund or free miles awarded.

On the Starlight at least, they've done away with the Chief of Services, the champagne, the flowers, the chocolate on the pillows, the the entertainers and the naturalists who used to explain the flora and fauna along the right-of-way.

A combined lounge-diner car would certainly do away with the rest of the amenities sleeper passengers pay for.

To make it all worse, out local (LA) PBS station just aired a "Trains of America" special on the Stalight - from about 7-8 years ago. It is to weep.

ANd besides, the velcro on the curtains is worn out! ;)
 
daveyb99 said:
The food we experienced on #21/#22 late December 2005 was not all that bad - my coments to Amtrak were uneven heating and meal was already cooling down when served.  But that was early in the trials, and they should have worked out some kinks by now.
Amtrak should certainly spruce up service, continue with 2 waiters (not the overworked one we had), and extend hours.
 
MrFSS said:
Would one of you who has experienced it give us a more detailed idea of how it works, please.  Are meal reservations not taken any longer, do first class passengers get to "go first"  Do you "walk up" to a counter and order what you want and then take it to a table, such as McDonalds?  I'm interested in knowing what the process is.
Could you get your meal and take it back to your seat or bedroom?

I assume the meals are still free for sleeper car folks?

Has a menu been published anywhere?  Pictures of what the new car looks like.

Thanks!!!
 
AmtrakFan said:
I am looking foward to the Diner-Lite I think it is a imporvment with the extended Service plus hopefully it will be better in the longrun. Plus as OBS noted there have been warning signs around like the Diner-Lite Article that the URPA Wrote, Pesonally I knew this was coming and there is nothing we can do about it.
You sure a brave soul....just be sure to bring Pepto-Bismol and Rolaids just in case...they don't sell them in the lounge car....yet.
 
had8ley said:
AmtrakFan said:
I am looking foward to the Diner-Lite I think it is a imporvment with the extended Service plus hopefully it will be better in the longrun.    Plus as OBS noted there have been warning signs around like the Diner-Lite Article that the URPA Wrote, Pesonally I knew this was coming and there is nothing we can do about it.
You sure a brave soul....just be sure to bring Pepto-Bismol and Rolaids just in case...they don't sell them in the lounge car....yet.
My Thank You, yes I will be sure to bring some <_<
 
Sleeper said:
ANd besides, the velcro on the curtains is worn out! ;)
Is it worn out,or like the velcro on the curtains in every room we had on our recent trip, it just doesn't match theopposite piece. I can't for the life of me understand how difficult it would be to match those peices of velcro so they will actually attach to each other and hold the curtain either open or closed.
 
Had8ley: You continue to bring up your experience on 58 & 59 - over and over and over. I think there have been numerous posts on the forum suggesting that Amtrak is trying to make this work - as are a number of employees who see the benefit of continuing employment. The fact that your experience was in February and during the ensuing two months, Amtrak has made changes - based on feedback from employees and passengers is a good sign.

No one will benefit from your continued re-hashing of an old story.
 
P.S. Can you tell us about the changes so everyone else can have the opportunity to share??? I was blind sided when I stepped on the train when it came to the menu~ that's why all the hoopla. Amtrak's computer still listed the "old" menu when I returned from the trip a week later. It sure would be nice to hear what they have done to improve things in a month and 12 days...
 
had8ley said:
I'm not from Missouri so you don't have to demonstrate more than once that the "new" menu is a dismal attempt to dismantle what is enjoyable at Amtrak and that everyone used to look forward to.
Um, excuse me, what does being from Missouri have to do with anything? I am from Missouri, and I have many friends and family in Missouri, and that statement is rude on your part. Are you trying to imply that we need to be told something numerous times to 'get it'?
 
Sorry...I always thought people from Missouri took pride in the expression.

I am not trying to infuriate this site; just state the facts as I experienced them. If anyone can refute anything I've posted please do so...otherwise please believe me when I say there are not too many people that ride Amtrak more than I nor many that enjoy it as much as I do. I hope the last statement does not offend anyone....
 
Guest_guest said:
Um, excuse me, what does being from Missouri have to do with anything? I am from Missouri, and I have many friends and family in Missouri, and that statement is rude on your part. Are you trying to imply that we need to be told something numerous times to 'get it'?
I think the poster was referring to Missouri as the "Show Me" state. ;)
 
haolerider said:
 You continue to bring up your experience on 58 & 59 - over and over and over.  I think there have been numerous posts on the forum suggesting that Amtrak is trying to make this work - as are a number of employees who see the benefit of continuing employment.  The fact that your experience was in February and during the ensuing two months, Amtrak has made changes - based on feedback from employees and passengers is a good sign.
No one will benefit from your continued re-hashing of an old story.
Well it sure is easy to sit back and grind down someone trying to make other unsuspecting passengers aware of what they might be in for. Not one word of what I wrote was fabricated; as a matter of fact there was an old sandwich crust under the seat in our sleeper that almost started looking good after we came back from "Amtrak-lite" or I'll give you the choice of what you want to call it this week. Our trip was last month (February) and you quite highly rave about "all" the changes. Would you mind getting off the sofa and expound about all these "changes". Have you ridden and experienced these "changes" or are you just reading other people's material and guessing that "everything will be all right." We paid almost a thousand dollars for a terrible trip and you want to nickle and dime us for our experience. We're still waiting for all your replies...... ;) over and over and over !!!
 
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