This is exacltly why I'll keep to the rails thank you

[tp49]

Exactly!!!!!

I worked in Asia for the most part of 17 eyars, and the country that ALWAYS gave me more hassle on entry than anybody else was the good old USofA. Maybe I was a wimp about it, but I always tried to maintain my cool and answer their stupid questions and figuratively pound my head against a wall later. Equally, dealing with either the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the Foreign Affairs police in Taiwan was always easier than having to deal with the American Institute of Taiwan, the US's imitation embassy there. (Funny how the US govenment / State Department pretends that a democratically governered country of 23 million people does not exist because the biggest dictatorship and international bully on this planet does not like it.)

I had a very bad experience at AIT when I visited Taiwan. I too found dealing with the Taiwanese bureaucracy much easier and more painless than dealing with any aspect of the US government.

 

[jis]

If the repeated questions bother you and you often enter through one of the major port of entry airports, spend $100 and get yourself on the Global Entry System trusted traveler program and never face a human agent again for 5 years, provided no suspicion is raised that you may be doing something illegal.

I love this line of reasoning. If you feel your rights are being trampled on the solution is to invite far more intrusion willingly. That sort of bizarre subservience to overbearing authority figures isn't what this country represented when I was born here and I see no reason to accept it now.

First of all it is each individual's choice, so there is no obligation to do this. If the overall convenience works for one this is a choice that one has.

See since I was not born here, Having gone through the juggeernaut a couple or three times (once for H-1, second time for Green Card, and third time for citizenship) by the US Feds anyway, that is ignoring the third degree for obtaining the first F-1 Visa from a grumpy old lady consular officer in the Delhi Embassy. It is not clear what rights I exactly had at these various stages of dealing with the US bureaucracy, but I just take it all in stride. So what do I care if they decide to go over their own handiwork one more time . Only those who have the luxury of having been born here and who hardly ever travel outside anywhere, have the consequent luxury of dealing with legal niceties obtained when you are in the US.

Actually, it was truly amusing to discover how many errors they have of their own creation in their own records. Gave me visions of a giant sloth getting entangled in its own feet somehow. They even tried to convince me that I had not paid social security taxes that were due when I was on a student visa (that would be over 30 years ago!), and I had to quote them chapter and verse of their own regulations which says that under those circumstances no social security taxes are due. Also the fact that their own Social Security Administration agreed with me on that matter on a earnings report I had in my pocket which I pulled out and showed them, was somewhat of a precious moment.

But the reward of going through that fun experience is that now I walk upto a machine, stick my passport into it and give it my fingerprints, and it prints out an authorization to enter, and I am on my way. No fuss, no muss.

 

[leemell]

In a similar manner, I've had some uncomfortable experiences trying to back into this country from Canada. ICE is like TSA on steroids. What I don't care for, in general, is that I'm supposed to act happy when I'm barraged with questions about where I'm going and what I'm doing and where I'm going and who I'm seeing and where I live and where I'm going and what I'm doing and who I'm seeing and what I did and who I met...

The law does not say I have to be chipper and smiling and offer the dude a plate of cookies for giving me the third degree about why I can't remember where I was six days ago (on a 10-12 day vacation). GML aside, if I'm treated with respect as an adult I'm more likely to respond as such, and it's clear the person with the power sets the tone of the exchange, not me. If I'm grilled repeatedly in a forward, arrogant manner, don't be surprised if my patience wilts like a flower in the sun. I am not guilty until I can prove myself innocent; and if I'm bullied by the interrogator then strip-searched (it has happened) my fading decorum is not "felony stupid" it is a human reaction to having my dignity ripped from me. Question: why is it my responsibility to maintain a Pleasantville-type demeanor in the face of something that no adult would accept in any other situation?

Because you are not in "any other situation". As has been pointed out, until you are admitted, your rights are much more limited than after admission. That admission is conditional on being able to prove that you are a US citizen to the duly empowered border authority, namely the CBP and ICE (unlike the TSA these are Federal law enforcement agencies). You will also find that maintaining at least a neutral disposition will be far more helpful than becoming hostile, because that will raise suspicions in the very people who are deciding if you can be admitted. BTW, this kind of interrogation is also a tool, among others, used to see what you will say. Suck it up, as many have learned in the military, the situation is similar.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You're missing the pivotal point here. Until it is confirmed that you are a US Citizen, you have no rights except for those granted under the Geneva Convention. Your normal rights as a US Citizen don't start until you are across the border line from no man's land to the US.

There is no destination you can travel to where your American citizenship ceases to exist simply by virtue of your location, including North Korea or outer space. But hey, if you're convinced otherwise then I guess I'll let you deal with living inside your own self-constructed cage. Perhaps some day the meek and subservient will inherit America from the free and the brave, but if that day ever comes it won't be a country I'd ever want to live in anyway.

 

[jis]

You're missing the pivotal point here. Until it is confirmed that you are a US Citizen, you have no rights except for those granted under the Geneva Convention. Your normal rights as a US Citizen don't start until you are across the border line from no man's land to the US.

There is no destination you can travel to where your American citizenship ceases to exist simply by virtue of your location, including North Korea or outer space. But hey, if you're convinced otherwise then I guess I'll let you deal with living inside your own self-constructed cage. Perhaps some day the meek and subservient will inherit America from the free and the brave, but if that day ever comes it won't be a country I'd ever want to live in anyway.

All I can say is them are brave words and I am happy for you. But make no mistake. The State Department bureaucracy will abandon an American citizen somewhere in the wilderness of the rest of the world in a flash if that is deemed diplomatically prudent, It is all about cost-benefit analysis. And then all of ones American Citizenship will do nothing to get one out of a fix. So while the citizenship does not ever cease to exist, its effective exercise can cease to exist quite quite easily. Have seen it happen, and I am sure will happen again. It is generally better to be safe than sorry.

 

[leemell]

You're missing the pivotal point here. Until it is confirmed that you are a US Citizen, you have no rights except for those granted under the Geneva Convention. Your normal rights as a US Citizen don't start until you are across the border line from no man's land to the US.

There is no destination you can travel to where your American citizenship ceases to exist simply by virtue of your location, including North Korea or outer space. But hey, if you're convinced otherwise then I guess I'll let you deal with living inside your own self-constructed cage. Perhaps some day the meek and subservient will inherit America from the free and the brave, but if that day ever comes it won't be a country I'd ever want to live in anyway.

You are quite naive if you believe that will help you in many other parts of the world.

 

[the_traveler]

Thats because you are a Yankee Alan!Regular people are welcomed with open arms! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And it's even easier if you belong to Red Sox NATION!

(Especially if you have some CHOW-DAH or LOBS-TAH!

)

 

[FrankStar]

Since I'm going to England in a couple of weeks, I'll report back as to how the TSA experience was. I won't be flying out of PHL, however - the direct flight from EWR was $300 cheaper. So I even get an Amtrak trip out of it (to Newark airport - I'll take NJT/Septa home since it's not as time sensitive).

I do recall a flight from PHL a few years ago to Denver when the TSA personnel didn't seem to have the best attitude. A simple question about what had to come out of my carry-on bag that wasn't covered in their signs was met with a hostile stare.

 

[AlanB]

You're missing the pivotal point here. Until it is confirmed that you are a US Citizen, you have no rights except for those granted under the Geneva Convention. Your normal rights as a US Citizen don't start until you are across the border line from no man's land to the US.

There is no destination you can travel to where your American citizenship ceases to exist simply by virtue of your location, including North Korea or outer space. But hey, if you're convinced otherwise then I guess I'll let you deal with living inside your own self-constructed cage. Perhaps some day the meek and subservient will inherit America from the free and the brave, but if that day ever comes it won't be a country I'd ever want to live in anyway.

It's not a matter of your American citizenship ceasing to exist. You are and will always be an American citizen; unless of course one decides to renounce their citizenship.

This issue is that when your standing in that line asking for admitance into the US, your citizenship is uncertain. The fact that you're carrying an American passport means nothing. It could have been lost or stolen or even forged. In the eyes of that officer and under US laws concerning entry to the US, you have no citizenship of any country until you can prove that you do indeed hold citizenship in X country. You are in effect, a man without a country until you prove it to the officer.

And therefore the only right you have are those guaranteed under the Geneva Convention.

I've looked into this rather extensively after I wrongly got thrown out of Canada. Now granted I'm not a citizen of Canada, but their laws are remarkably similar to ours. And trust me it was pretty scarry sitting there knowing that I didn't even have the right to call a lawyer, that I would loose my car and its contents, and land in jail. And all without much fanfare.

Perhaps because my story was the truth and they couldn't shake me, perhaps maybe I just got lucky, I'll never know, but instead the supervising agent instead decided to return me to the US and ban me from entering Canada for a period of 1 year.

But again, after that I did considerable research into this issue, because I never realized that the only rights I had were those granted under the Geneva Convention and that assumes that the country your traveling to actually signed that accord. If they didn't, then you have even fewer rights.

You don't have the rights of a US Citizen until you are able to prove to that officer that you are indeed a US citizen! And that's not a 9/11 thing; it's always been that way. It's probably gotten harder to prove that you are a US citizen since 9/11 and the officers are most certainly more suspicious of you since 9/11. But make no mistake, you don't have citizenship rights when you show up at a US Border control point.

 

[tp49]

Thats because you are a Yankee Alan!Regular people are welcomed with open arms! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And it's even easier if you belong to Red Sox NATION!

(Especially if you have some CHOW-DAH or LOBS-TAH!

)

Why would anyone want to belong to the Red Sawks nation especially when the Yankee Universe is a much better more civilized place . We'll take the chow-dah and the lobs-tah though.

 

[ayndim]

Just don't kid yourself by believing that all the legal niceties that apply when you are in United States applies when you have not yet been admitted into the US by the CBP agent at the port of entry, and you will do just fine. It is prudent to assume that it is upto you to prove that you are eligible to gain entry into the US and not the other way round. As long as your proof of citizenship is irrefutable and you are not doing anything illegal you would be fine, notwithstanding all the silly questions that they ask.

My understanding is that nobody is legally allowed to prevent an American citizen from otherwise lawfully entering the United States. Any law would likely be unconstitutional if used to prevent entry by otherwise law abiding Americans. Well, at least prior to the Roberts Court. Despite all these new laws saying you need a passport and whatever else they can only detain you so long before they will eventually have to let you in. That's a little known aspect of our immigration process from the articles I've read. You'll be detained and questioned for a few hours and your friends and family will be contacted to corroborate your claims. But eventually you'll be let in so long as you can provide any number of conventional details any American citizen should be able to provide. I suppose if you were an undocumented baby or you lived your adult life as a scavenging loner you might be screwed without any legal recourse.

If the repeated questions bother you and you often enter through one of the major port of entry airports, spend $100 and get yourself on the Global Entry System trusted traveler program and never face a human agent again for 5 years, provided no suspicion is raised that you may be doing something illegal.

I love this line of reasoning. If you feel your rights are being trampled on the solution is to invite far more intrusion willingly. That sort of bizarre subservience to overbearing authority figures isn't what this country represented when I was born here and I see no reason to accept it now.

Don't you believe it. I was denied entry into the US from Canada back in 94. I'm a citizen. One girl in the car didn't have her papers (she was from Iran), so they sent the 4 of us back and told us to try again in 24 hours. 3 of us got in the next day. The girl with no papers took a greyhound bus in with no problems. I really didn't want to argue because I didn't think prison would suit me.

 

[nightrider]

I get the impression that some (not all), TSA are what you might call "gun and badge wannabe's". For whatever reason, they can not get a job as a real police officer, so they take this job to give their ego's some semblance of the power posesses by cops.

And the screener's job is certainly a most tedious one. And I'm sure that any 'excitement' provided by a suspicious or uncooperative subject is a very welcome diversion from their boring routine.

Again, I emphasize that not all fit this description, but one or two can spoil the barrel.

And the press are always looking to sensationalize a story, and drag it on for days, if possible.

 

[amamba]

You're missing the pivotal point here. Until it is confirmed that you are a US Citizen, you have no rights except for those granted under the Geneva Convention. Your normal rights as a US Citizen don't start until you are across the border line from no man's land to the US.

There is no destination you can travel to where your American citizenship ceases to exist simply by virtue of your location, including North Korea or outer space. But hey, if you're convinced otherwise then I guess I'll let you deal with living inside your own self-constructed cage. Perhaps some day the meek and subservient will inherit America from the free and the brave, but if that day ever comes it won't be a country I'd ever want to live in anyway.

All I can say is them are brave words and I am happy for you. But make no mistake. The State Department bureaucracy will abandon an American citizen somewhere in the wilderness of the rest of the world in a flash if that is deemed diplomatically prudent, It is all about cost-benefit analysis. And then all of ones American Citizenship will do nothing to get one out of a fix. So while the citizenship does not ever cease to exist, its effective exercise can cease to exist quite quite easily. Have seen it happen, and I am sure will happen again. It is generally better to be safe than sorry.

One of my college classmates (yes, an american citizen) is in prison in North Korea. Enough said. He crossed the border (probably intentionally) and is thus reaping exactly what he sowed. He has been in prison for months over there.

 

[George Harris]

One of my college classmates (yes, an american citizen) is in prison in North Korea. Enough said. He crossed the border (probably intentionally) and is thus reaping exactly what he sowed. He has been in prison for months over there.

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." If you want a trip into the twiliight zone or world of complete imagination and paranoia whatever you want to call it, hunt up the North Korean web sites. The dear Leader is the world's greatest at everything, either believe or else enjoy a long period of reeducation.

 

[leemell]

One of my college classmates (yes, an american citizen) is in prison in North Korea. Enough said. He crossed the border (probably intentionally) and is thus reaping exactly what he sowed. He has been in prison for months over there.

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." If you want a trip into the twiliight zone or world of complete imagination and paranoia whatever you want to call it, hunt up the North Korean web sites. The dear Leader is the world's greatest at everything, either believe or else enjoy a long period of reeducation.

Jimmy Carter is being dispatched by the administration right now to try to get him released.

 

[amamba]

One of my college classmates (yes, an american citizen) is in prison in North Korea. Enough said. He crossed the border (probably intentionally) and is thus reaping exactly what he sowed. He has been in prison for months over there.

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." If you want a trip into the twiliight zone or world of complete imagination and paranoia whatever you want to call it, hunt up the North Korean web sites. The dear Leader is the world's greatest at everything, either believe or else enjoy a long period of reeducation.

Jimmy Carter is being dispatched by the administration right now to try to get him released.

Leemell, that is great news. I knew him in school (we went to a very small college) and he was the RA for my husband's dorm. He was a very nice guy, and I have been very sad to think of him in prison in North Korea. Looks like the news about Jimmy Carter just came out today, hopefully it will be enough to get him freed.

 

[JayPea]

I remember several years ago (1998, if I remember right) I went for a day trip into Canada for some sightseeing and picture taking. I live about three hours from the border and got into Canada with no problem at all. I spent a few hours enjoying the sights and then drove back to the US. I had all sorts of problem with the border crossing guard as I was trying to enter. She asked all sorts of stern questions and didn't seem to believe a word I said. I didn't see the point of blowing up and getting angry at her so I just gritted my teeth and answered her inquisition. At one point she insisted on searching my trunk. All I had in my trunk was a spare tire, tool boxes, assorted other junk, and my fishing tackle box. She insisted on thoroughly searching my tackle box. It was getting dark by then and she couldn't see too well. She ended up getting a hand full of fishhooks for her trouble. She was furious by now and I was trying not to laugh out loud. That did end the inquisition, though. :lol:

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I remember several years ago (1998, if I remember right) I went for a day trip into Canada for some sightseeing and picture taking. I live about three hours from the border and got into Canada with no problem at all. I spent a few hours enjoying the sights and then drove back to the US. I had all sorts of problem with the border crossing guard as I was trying to enter. She asked all sorts of stern questions and didn't seem to believe a word I said. I didn't see the point of blowing up and getting angry at her so I just gritted my teeth and answered her inquisition. At one point she insisted on searching my trunk. All I had in my trunk was a spare tire, tool boxes, assorted other junk, and my fishing tackle box. She insisted on thoroughly searching my tackle box. It was getting dark by then and she couldn't see too well. She ended up getting a hand full of fishhooks for her trouble. She was furious by now and I was trying not to laugh out loud. That did end the inquisition, though. :lol:

This would get you arrested for sure but next time have armed mouse traps in there hehe.

 

[JayPea]

I remember several years ago (1998, if I remember right) I went for a day trip into Canada for some sightseeing and picture taking. I live about three hours from the border and got into Canada with no problem at all. I spent a few hours enjoying the sights and then drove back to the US. I had all sorts of problem with the border crossing guard as I was trying to enter. She asked all sorts of stern questions and didn't seem to believe a word I said. I didn't see the point of blowing up and getting angry at her so I just gritted my teeth and answered her inquisition. At one point she insisted on searching my trunk. All I had in my trunk was a spare tire, tool boxes, assorted other junk, and my fishing tackle box. She insisted on thoroughly searching my tackle box. It was getting dark by then and she couldn't see too well. She ended up getting a hand full of fishhooks for her trouble. She was furious by now and I was trying not to laugh out loud. That did end the inquisition, though. :lol:

This would get you arrested for sure but next time have armed mouse traps in there hehe.

It was several years and long after 9-11 that I made my next trip into Canada but believe me that very thought did cross my mind. :lol:

 

[nightrider]

I am very curious as to what sort of profile or activites the aforementioned

"behaviour specialists" are looking for. Probably this info is 'classified', but nonetheless, it would be interesting to know.

The most obvious would be someone extremely nervous and appearing paranoic, but what else?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

If you have a strong accent they might grill you then or ask for ID etc.

 

[LA Resident]

Corky even sleeps in her bed with her when I am away :lol:

No can do! My cat takes up the whole bed!

(YOU tell her to move!

Cats do what they want, when they want and where they want!

)

Sounds like your cat would never be satisfied with anything but the lower bed in a deluxe bedroom!

 

[Guest]

Corky even sleeps in her bed with her when I am away :lol:

No can do! My cat takes up the whole bed!

(YOU tell her to move!

Cats do what they want, when they want and where they want!

)

Sounds like your cat would never be satisfied with anything but the lower bed in a deluxe bedroom!

Probably demands Beech Grove for any trips, lets Dave visit if the service and food is up to standards! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jis]

Corky even sleeps in her bed with her when I am away :lol:

No can do! My cat takes up the whole bed!

(YOU tell her to move!

Cats do what they want, when they want and where they want!

)

Sounds like your cat would never be satisfied with anything but the lower bed in a deluxe bedroom!

I thought cats prefer the upper bed since they like to climb. But I guess there are lazy cats :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[railiner]

Cats in lower beds??

This discussion brings to mind the famous C&O patriotic magazine ad from World War II featuring "Chessie" their mascot, titled: "Lower 9 Has Gone To War".

Anyone seen that?

It depicts a young American soldier going off to war, lying in the bunk that was usually occupied by Chessie, who was now displaced to a spot on the floor.