Transit and Crime

[Tlcooper44]

Alon Levy’s recent article: Public Transportation and Crime are not About Each Other

I respect Alon a lot, and read everything they write, but in this particular point, I feel they're a little off base. I agree with the headline, but feel, in essence, that perception of danger in transit is nearly identical in importance to actual danger.

Curious to hear other’s reactions.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Several of my friends on the north side have been threatened on the L - that would have never happened before Covid. And driving everywhere in the here City has gotten far, far, far worse than pre-covid (in large part, entitlement and knowledge of non-enforcement of traffic laws). Definitely there is a problem with crime - even Streetsblog touches on it thought they don't address real solutions to it.

I find a lot of YIMBY rhetoric to be neo-liberal or neo-capitalist in a naive way and urban dreaming rather than reality based, but I'll leave it at that.

 

[Cal]

that perception of danger in transit is nearly identical in importance to actual danger.

Absolutely agree. If everyone from the suburbs (or anywhere else for that matter) feels uneasy taking transit, it won't be used as much as it should and could.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Several of my friends on the north side have been threatened on the L - that would have never happened before Covid. And driving everywhere in the here City has gotten far, far, far worse than pre-covid (in large part, entitlement and knowledge of non-enforcement of traffic laws). Definitely there is a problem with crime - even Streetsblog touches on it thought they don't address real solutions to it.

I find a lot of YIMBY rhetoric to be neo-liberal or neo-capitalist in a naive way and urban dreaming rather than reality based, but I'll leave it at that.

One of my best friends is a doctoral student at Northwestern. He’s from NYC and is very transit literate and comfortable.

In his two years so far in Chicago, he’s witnessed two stabbings in train cars he’s been in.

This is a huge problem - despite transit being much safer than driving.

 

[NorthShore]

Alon Levy’s recent article: Public Transportation and Crime are not About Each Other

I respect Alon a lot, and read everything they write, but in this particular point, I feel they're a little off base. I agree with the headline, but feel, in essence, that perception of danger in transit is nearly identical in importance to actual danger.

Curious to hear other’s reactions.

For many riders who CHOOSE transit, for a variety of reasons including cost of driving/parking and convenience, the perception of safety is key. If they do not feel safe, even if they are at worst discomforted and inconvenienced, they will opt to drive and avoid transit whenever possible.

For others who truly prefer to drive and only take transit when they find such "necessary", this standard increases. They are already predisposed not to like, but only tolerate it. They'll bust away if they have a good excuse. One bad experience or a few bad stories they hear and "nope."

But, even for carless (either by choice or economic necessity) users, I hear lots of stories about why people decide to take a certain route over another; or ride a bus rather than the L at night, for instance. Much of this comes from concern that "something bad COULD happen", even if it's not terribly likely. Or even because of bad behavior being the norm in certain places and times on transit.

Just ride the Red Line enough on a Saturday night in Chicago, for instance, and you're almost certain to see something strange going on, at minimum. Part of this, of course, is just urban life (which even a lot of urbanites aren't terribly comfortable tolerating or having to encounter), not to mention the many college students and twenty somethings out on the town to drink/party riding what I call the "university line", because of all the schools as well as entertainment areas along it's route. But, there's also plenty which can get kinda scary, if not outright dangerous. There are definitely parts of the CTA system on which I feel less safe than others. One challenge, I think, is that L trains typically run at full length at all times (this used to not be the case) and areas. Consequently, on parts of some routes, one can feel awful lonely and vulnerable. Frequently, there are homeless, addicts, and occasionally robbers who take advantage of such. One has to be watchful and street smart/aware of surroundings in these situations for safety.

 

[west point]

r One has to be watchful and street smart/aware of surroundings in these situations for safety.

Also have to look somewhat menacing. My times in NY City on cool or cold days would ware my long Navy coat with gloves stuffed into the pockets. Had more than one time someone mistook me for a policeman.

 

[MARC Rider]

Several of my friends on the north side have been threatened on the L - that would have never happened before Covid. And driving everywhere in the here City has gotten far, far, far worse than pre-covid (in large part, entitlement and knowledge of non-enforcement of traffic laws). Definitely there is a problem with crime - even Streetsblog touches on it thought they don't address real solutions to it.

I find a lot of YIMBY rhetoric to be neo-liberal or neo-capitalist in a naive way and urban dreaming rather than reality based, but I'll leave it at that.

I've never had any problem with crime or unruly behavior on transit since Covid, but I agree that driving has really gotten bad. Most drivers are fine, but I'm encountering a lot more knucklehead aggressive moves and disregard of traffic controls than I did before the pandemic.

There has long been a perception that transit and criminal behavior are linked, and this goes way before Covid. I think at the core it's a combination of racial and class bigotry and snobbery (which I guess is a form of class bigotry.) As the middle class fled to the suburbs once they had access to cars and freeways after WW2, the parts of the cities that had good transit service did tend to be used by poorer people and there was more crime. Also, during the 1950s through the 1970s, young people (actually everybody) were getting dosed pretty well with l=atmospheric lead emissions from all the new cars that burned leaded gasoline. There's apparently evidence that this had effects on impulse control on enough young people that it was one of the factors causing increased crime rates in the 1960s through the 1980s. And people who are all in an anxious tizzy about today's crime rates should realize that even with the small recent uptick in crime, it's nothing like the crime rates in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I know. I lived through it, riding the Broad Street Subway every day to school 1967-1971 right through the roughest slums of North Philadelphia. And, with one exception, I, a nerdy teenager, was never bothered.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I've never had any problem with crime or unruly behavior on transit since Covid, but I agree that driving has really gotten bad. Most drivers are fine, but I'm encountering a lot more knucklehead aggressive moves and disregard of traffic controls than I did before the pandemic.

There has long been a perception that transit and criminal behavior are linked, and this goes way before Covid. I think at the core it's a combination of racial and class bigotry and snobbery (which I guess is a form of class bigotry.) As the middle class fled to the suburbs once they had access to cars and freeways after WW2, the parts of the cities that had good transit service did tend to be used by poorer people and there was more crime. Also, during the 1950s through the 1970s, young people (actually everybody) were getting dosed pretty well with l=atmospheric lead emissions from all the new cars that burned leaded gasoline. There's apparently evidence that this had effects on impulse control on enough young people that it was one of the factors causing increased crime rates in the 1960s through the 1980s. And people who are all in an anxious tizzy about today's crime rates should realize that even with the small recent uptick in crime, it's nothing like the crime rates in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I know. I lived through it, riding the Broad Street Subway every day to school 1967-1971 right through the roughest slums of North Philadelphia. And, with one exception, I, a nerdy teenager, was never bothered.

I can relate to this, thinking of the Metro in DC in the 70s and 80s when Crime was "The Thing" in the District!

And of course the Subways in the Apple during the Crack days before they "Cleaned up" the City!

 

[Deni]

I definitely agree that the perception of crime/safety matters to get people on transit. The problem is that the anti-transit forces have spent years - with the media's help - painting transit as dangerous even when the reality is that driving is so much more dangerous. Every incident that happens on transit gets highlighted and blown up, even while that same day may have multiple deaths and injuries from automobile violence. So many people scoff at me when I say taking transit is safer than driving.

I think some of the issue is also not necessarily crime but - at least here in Chicago - taking transit has become really unpleasant much of the time. (This unpleasantness can in some ways make people feel unsafe, which goes back to the perception issue). Whenever I am on the L (especially the Red Line) the frequency that I am on a car where someone is smoking (cigarettes or pot) and/or playing obnoxiously loud music is astounding. And so much garbage and food on the train. And in one instance there was actually a pile of human feces on the floor, and this was a train that had just left the Howard terminal where, in theory, cleaning crews walk through the train. I've yet to see any real enforcement or any concern at all from CTA employees. Morale among the CTA staff seems to be at all-time low, nobody cares anymore, and the leadership is a joke. The board and the president of the CTA are a bunch of people who don't even ride the system. Like, ever.

As Northshore alluded to, people are making choices for mode and route of their transit not always based on fastest and easiest way. Often for safety concerns but I think also for the annoyance level. I often choose to take the bus these days in contrast to pre-Covid when I would always choose the L over the bus. Even if it takes me longer. I'm just so tired and annoyed with the smoking and loud music and dirty trains.

I don't take transit on a daily basis, most of my day-to-day is on my bicycle. But when I do it is always a calculation on the time of day/week (rush hour is usually fine) to decide if I want to risk taking the L or the longer bus ride. Coming home from Evanston north of the city is almost always terrible after a show at a concert venue up there. It's hard to avoid the late night ride on the Red Line at that point.

 

[Literalman]

Wow, and I thought the Septa L and subway were bad. I ride the Market St. el-subway fairly often. It's often dirty, sometimes with obnoxious behavior, and sometimes with people who appear to be on drugs, but I haven't seem a crime or felt threatened. Still, I if the schedule permits, I will take a bus to the Wawa line and ride that into Center City. I ride the Media and Sharon Hill trolleys a lot and they are almost always fine, as are the buses I sometimes ride. But I think twice before riding the subway or el at night.

 

[Stevenz]

I've never had any problem with crime or unruly behavior on transit since Covid, but I agree that driving has really gotten bad. Most drivers are fine, but I'm encountering a lot more knucklehead aggressive moves and disregard of traffic controls than I did before the pandemic.

There has long been a perception that transit and criminal behavior are linked, and this goes way before Covid. I think at the core it's a combination of racial and class bigotry and snobbery (which I guess is a form of class bigotry.) As the middle class fled to the suburbs once they had access to cars and freeways after WW2, the parts of the cities that had good transit service did tend to be used by poorer people and there was more crime. Also, during the 1950s through the 1970s, young people (actually everybody) were getting dosed pretty well with l=atmospheric lead emissions from all the new cars that burned leaded gasoline. There's apparently evidence that this had effects on impulse control on enough young people that it was one of the factors causing increased crime rates in the 1960s through the 1980s. And people who are all in an anxious tizzy about today's crime rates should realize that even with the small recent uptick in crime, it's nothing like the crime rates in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I know. I lived through it, riding the Broad Street Subway every day to school 1967-1971 right through the roughest slums of North Philadelphia. And, with one exception, I, a nerdy teenager, was never bothered.

Interesting. My experience as a teenager in the late 60s in Philadelphia was the same. Those were years when transit was definitely risky and why up to this day we sit on hard plastic seats instead of eminently slashable cushions. But as a 14 year old I would take a bus to 69th St. and the subway from home in the suburbs to astronomy classes at the Franklin Institute and had nary a problem. (And the walk from the subway to the Institute was long, pitch dark and lonely.). Today, no parent would let a kid do that.

 

[Stevenz]

Wow, and I thought the Septa L and subway were bad. I ride the Market St. el-subway fairly often. It's often dirty, sometimes with obnoxious behavior, and sometimes with people who appear to be on drugs, but I haven't seem a crime or felt threatened. Still, I if the schedule permits, I will take a bus to the Wawa line and ride that into Center City. I ride the Media and Sharon Hill trolleys a lot and they are almost always fine, as are the buses I sometimes ride. But I think twice before riding the subway or el at night.

When very young we lived on Bedford Ave in Collingdale which dead-ended at the Sharon Hill tracks. Loved playing there putting stones and pennies for the trolley to run over. Risky but essential activity for kids. Very Darwinian.

 

[Cal]

Today, no parent would let a kid do that.

It's interesting because crime has actually gone down a lot since those days.

 

[Budd_Metroliner]

This past year I dealt with a homeless crazy person who nearly assaulted me on the Orange for looking at him wrong, mind you I've been riding city transit for years with no incident so nearly getting jumped spooked me. The Homeless man started trying to punch people in the subway car, We called over the emergency intercom system for transit cops no on responded. The guy constantly kept swinging at passengers until someone physically threw him out of the car onto the platform where he went up to the entrance in front of Mass Ave station in full view of the "transit ambassadors" swinging at the exiting passengers and they did nothing, I left before I saw any transit cops show up. I'm not exactly expecting cops to materialize out of the air with billy clubs but I am expecting some form of a response short of "well that sucks" when I tell the station attendants he tried to assault me especially when he is acting as an active hazard.

 

[Tlcooper44]

This past year I dealt with a homeless crazy person who nearly assaulted me on the Orange for looking at him wrong, mind you I've been riding city transit for years with no incident so nearly getting jumped spooked me. The Homeless man started trying to punch people in the subway car, We called over the emergency intercom system for transit cops no on responded. The guy constantly kept swinging at passengers until someone physically threw him out of the car onto the platform where he went up to the entrance in front of Mass Ave station in full view of the "transit ambassadors" swinging at the exiting passengers and they did nothing, I left before I saw any transit cops show up. I'm not exactly expecting cops to materialize out of the air with billy clubs but I am expecting some form of a response short of "well that sucks" when I tell the station attendants he tried to assault me especially when he is acting as an active hazard.

I'm losing more and more patience with the more lax approach to crime in cities and on transit - especially when I read stories like this. Combined with my own ridiculous experiences with transit in Boston, it makes me have full understanding of those who make a permanent switch to driving.

I'm a reasonably sized, athletic built, (5'10") brown dude - hard to imagine what a small woman must feel in uncomfortable situations aboard transit.

With that said, transit is much safer than driving in America (of course, that doesn't mean its actually safe - city dependent of course). But the level of crime that we have on transit in America is absolutely unacceptable. I for one, would appreciate increased police presence across all transit systems in north America (I know that's quite a controversial thing, but its my hot take). Maybe not permanently, but at least until things are back under control.

taking transit has become really unpleasant much of the time. (This unpleasantness can in some ways make people feel unsafe, which goes back to the perception issue). Whenever I am on the L (especially the Red Line) the frequency that I am on a car where someone is smoking (cigarettes or pot) and/or playing obnoxiously loud music is astounding. And so much garbage and food on the train. And in one instance there was actually a pile of human feces on the floor, and this was a train that had just left the Howard terminal where, in theory, cleaning crews walk through the train.

It astounds me that we (transit agencies) put up with this nonsense.
Feces has no place on transit or in cities, but somehow, its commonplace in San Francisco - the amount of poop I saw last summer was insane - and occurs infrequently everywhere else. One of the first things I noticed in Hong Kong was how clean all of the trains and stations were. Station restrooms are not a war-zone situation. I hate to say it, but in Hong Kong, bad deeds don't go un-punished. Maybe there's something to that.

To be clear I'm not advocating for a police state. But there's got to be a happy medium between that, and never punishing people for breaking laws on transit until its gone too far.

 

[Tlcooper44]

It's interesting because crime has actually gone down a lot since those days.

I would never let my kid take transit alone in America - but I would in Asia.

And yet, you're absolutely right. Many cities are overall safer. Boston is the safest its been since the 1950's.

 

[Deni]

I would never let my kid take transit alone in America - but I would in Asia.

And yet, you're absolutely right. Many cities are overall safer. Boston is the safest its been since the 1950's.

There is a culture of fear in America, I don't fully understand it. My kid has been taking transit alone since she was in 4th grade, and the other parents at school reacted to this as if I had gotten her a part time job at an asbestos factory after school. Sure, most places in Asia I have been have much more pleasant experiences on transit than in most U.S. cities, but the fear of danger is just overblown here.

 

[Tlcooper44]

There is a culture of fear in America, I don't fully understand it. My kid has been taking transit alone since she was in 4th grade, and the other parents at school reacted to this as if I had gotten her a part time job at an asbestos factory after school. Sure, most places in Asia I have been have much more pleasant experiences on transit than in most U.S. cities, but the fear of danger is just overblown here.

I think to suggest transit in Asia is simply more pleasant fails to convey just how extreme a difference it is.

Of course homogeneous societies tend to have an easier time with this stuff - but we can and should push and advocate for safer and cleaner transit.

For what its worth, I also don't really want my kid to be driving everywhere either. 16 year old drivers are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.

 

[Deni]

I'm losing more and more patience with the more lax approach to crime in cities and on transit - especially when I read stories like this. Combined with my own ridiculous experiences with transit in Boston, it makes me have full understanding of those who make a permanent switch to driving.

I'm a reasonably sized, athletic built, (5'10") brown dude - hard to imagine what a small woman must feel in uncomfortable situations aboard transit.

With that said, transit is much safer than driving in America (of course, that doesn't mean its actually safe - city dependent of course). But the level of crime that we have on transit in America is absolutely unacceptable. I for one, would appreciate increased police presence across all transit systems in north America (I know that's quite a controversial thing, but its my hot take). Maybe not permanently, but at least until things are back under control.


It astounds me that we (transit agencies) put up with this nonsense.
Feces has no place on transit or in cities, but somehow, its commonplace in San Francisco - the amount of poop I saw last summer was insane - and occurs infrequently everywhere else. One of the first things I noticed in Hong Kong was how clean all of the trains and stations were. Station restrooms are not a war-zone situation. I hate to say it, but in Hong Kong, bad deeds don't go un-punished. Maybe there's something to that.

To be clear I'm not advocating for a police state. But there's got to be a happy medium between that, and never punishing people for breaking laws on transit until its gone too far.

I don't disagree, there is a way to enforce rules and not infringe on civil rights. We do need more police (including undercover in my opinion, so people don't just watch out for a uniform before they hide what they are doing) issuing tickets on transit.

But I think the way Asian cities are clean and safe comes down to more factors than heavy police presence and security in places like Beijing. Certainly Taipei, Seoul, Tokyo, etc are not places living in a police state. I think it's a combination of cultural and investment. The investment comes in having a lot of cleaning staff, doing it more frequently and the better it loks on a regular basis the less riders are likely to dirty it. I mean, I've seen cleaners in Taipei buffing the metal on the escalators in the mornings. Every morning.

Cultural is maybe a heavier lift but not impossible, culture does change. I think a lot of Asian countries have more of an attitude of responsibility and respect toward your fellow man. Americans need to be trained away from this individualistic nonsense. And enforcing rules can change the culture. Smoking became unacceptable in indoor settings in a fairly short amount of time after laws were passed. There really hasn't been the need to enforce those laws, society has come to self regulate. But we seem to have lost it on transit after the emptying out during Covid. A little bit of enforcement brought back and we can be back to where we were.

 

[Deni]

I think to suggest transit in Asia is simply more pleasant fails to convey just how extreme a difference it is.

Of course homogeneous societies tend to have an easier time with this stuff - but we can and should push and advocate for safer and cleaner transit.

For what its worth, I also don't really want my kid to be driving everywhere either. 16 year old drivers are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.

Well, it is extremely more pleasant.

I'm not trying understate the crap show that is transit in the U.S. (at least Chicago, it's been about 18 months since I've been on NY Transit, and about a year since I was on the LA Metro), but I think that the crime rate gets exaggerated and what really turns people off is the nastiness on the trains. Trust me, I absolutely get so annoyed when I see how fantastic they have it in so many Asian cities and I wonder why we can't have nice things. (In 2024 alone I rode the transit systems in Seoul, Taipei, Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto and it just kills me with jealousy.)

 

[Maverickstation]

For some of us riding transit is a choice, one of the reasons we moved to Boston, almost 10 years ago, is due
to the fact that you can use the T to get to most places you need to, and want to go.

I have my car, but it is very liberating to not be a slave to the automobile, and mine can go weeks between uses.

As for safety, I have never had an issue with riding the T at any hour of the times that it operates (it does not run from roughly 1:00 to 5:00 am). The safety level on the T mirrors the overall safety level of Boston, just use common street smarts.

The biggest issue on the T was the numerous slow zones on the subway lines that as of this writing have been eliminated.

Ken

 

[Widfara]

I now live in Texas, but grew up in NYC (1963-68).

I have visited about once a year since then, as my older brother is still a denizen of the place.

For the first time, on my visit in October, because of all the reporting, I was apprehensive about using the subway, but did so several times without incident. No, it is not a good thing to have any incidents of crime, but the reporting seems overblown.

 

[Budd_Metroliner]

My personal experience was a one off, I can only think of one other time dealing with an incident which was an OD. That year I also had 5 near miss collisions with people running red lights and stop signs to the extent that I stopped driving during certain hours and I refuse to drive in either Center City or Boston unless I absolutely had to (I never drove in NYC to start with). Driving it seemed like the local cops were on some sort of soft strike I was seeing people blow down the Schuylkill at like 90-100 mph and some of the most reckless merging and shoulder running I had ever seen. I didn't see real speed trap enforcement until the beginning of this year and that was the township notorious for being a "ticket mill" before the pandemic. I think the proliferation of paper tags in conjunction with red light running was making the problem un-ignorable here in SE-PA. I think some of the disorder was pandemic related less transit oriented.

Transit side the was a massive shortage of transit cops for SEPTA, plus the pandemic ridership dip and lack of headways made things very painful. Suburban station was already having homeless problems when they opened the homeless center to try and help people and it turned into a giant magnet for them combined with once every 3 hour half full trains leaving. I would sometimes just go to 30th street to wait than stay in Suburban from how problematic it was in the station.

I personally think the bigger problem has been the mental healthcare this country offers those that need to have it. Short of people being an active danger to themselves legally the lower level powers that be really can't do anything and they wind up on mass transit. A lot of mental institutions have closed, granted for good reason in some cases, but this leaves cracks those people slip though. I had a relative deal with a person having an episode who punched a doctor who was treating them in psychiatric care and they just chucked homeless person out out onto the street. They didn't want to charge them or involuntarily hold them so it was simpler to eject them.

As the rest of you have pointed out I haven't seen any armed robberies or pick pocketing on the train, no real assaults, more quality of life issues like litter and smoking on the platforms. Now that being said this is Regional rail and the Subways/Route 100, I know the bus operators have been having a hell of a time on the network which was a key sticking point on TWU's last contract negotiation

 

[Tlcooper44]

In essence I agree with everyone.

Transit crime reporting is completely overblown. I constantly have this discussion with my sister, among others (she’s a suburban car disciple), who really believes the whole city/transit bad-car/suburb good rhetoric - she even entertains the 15-minute-city conspiracy at times, but I think I’ve convinced her that government control is far more easily done in car dependent environments than in transit oriented environments.

I think my gripe with all of this is that no matter how you slice it, American cities and transit are not as clean and safe as they should be, and that should be fixed. We throw billions at badly designed, poorly run transit and it’s a shame. It only further proves the point of car dependency apologists.

Several people have given reasons as to why other countries have it better, and I think all of them are relevant. But I personally think Asian societies are also far more closed and homogenous, helping with the shared responsibility that comes with comprehensive, country wide transit. Japan might not be a police state, but the consequences of crime are possibly more severe than in America - and crime goes punished in the first place. For better or worse, they have a famously high conviction rate.

I’m not convinced S tier asian style transit is possible in America, especially given the individualistic, American exceptionalism nonsense. I think it would take several generations to undue the social condition that is antithetical to transit.

 

[Deni]

I think my gripe with all of this is that no matter how you slice it, American cities and transit are not as clean and safe as they should be, and that should be fixed. We throw billions at badly designed, poorly run transit and it’s a shame. It only further proves the point of car dependency apologists.

Yeah, that line right there. We build transit that gets everyone place very slowly, making no one choose to not drive. So many of the cities with newer transit systems (Denver, Dallas, MSP, etc) build nothing but light rail, which is very useful as a compliment to metro systems and not supposed to be instead of a metro system. When I go to MSP on Amtrak it takes a damn full hour to get to downtown Minneapolis on their light rail. It would take like 20 minutes on a well-designed subway. And when they aren't fast and convenient the only people then on the system are poor people who have no other options.