Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The PRIIA for the Cardinal suggested both CIN-STL and IND-STL. I think IND was the first one suggested. I had to look further to see the CIN option.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

They did not list any routes or intermediate stops although they said it would require use of tracks Amtrak does not currently use.

The National Limited used Effingham, IL and Terre Haute, IN between IND and STL. Effingham is a stop on the Illini/Saluki/CONO. I believe Terre Haute has no trains at this time.

1977: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770622&item=0042

They had

West: IND 11:40am, STL 5:00pm. Assuming my schedule (arriving in IND 11:20am), you can shift those 1 hr for a 6pm arrival into STL and 2 hr leeway for the TE (8:00pm departure). If it takes an extra hour today as compared to 1977, it would be tight.

East: STL 1:05pm, IND 6:10pm. Assuming my schedule (leaving IND 5:59pm), a 3 hr shift would give almost 3 hr. leeway from the TE (7:19am arrival) and almost 3 hr. leeway to the Cardinal.

I would imagine a CIN-STL might involve Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia, IL (bypassing IND)? If so, that would really break into the Louisville market. I might prefer that over IND-STL if Louisville were involved.

As for Kentucky Cardinal (2001): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20011028n&item=0029

It took about 5 hrs. each way.

I would probably tie any IND-Louisville with the Hoosier State rather than the Cardinal to avoid a split situation like the old setup on days the Cardinal went east of IND.But that would require a second set just like CHI-CIN would. I don't know if Iowa Pacific has any dreams of expanding beyond CHI-IND but I would imagine they would want a daily train first before considering expansion. If you use the current Hoosier State times, CIN or Louisville would have graveyard shift times although Louisville's would be slightly better than Cincinnati's since it takes longer (I would guess 5-6am arrival and 12-1am departure).

If extended into Nashville (approx 5-6 hrs more), you'd probably have an arrival around lunchtime and a departure around dinner time.

Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hello everyone. I see that Huntington - Louisville C&O tracks are abandoned, so that's not an option.

B&O tracks to St. Louis don't go through any major cities, only brushing by Centralia IL. Tracks through Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL are a possibility.

Northern tracks are Indianapolis - St. Louis thru Terre Haute IN and Effingham IL.

Middle tracks are B&O tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, no major cities served.

Southern tracks are tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, passing thru Covington KY, Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL.

Yellow-Orange tracks are the current Cardinal tracks.

Note that track paths are approximate, and they don't exactly follow the tracks.

Full Map



Zoomed in on east side



Zoomed in on west side



I made sure that all the tracks along the route were in place, no gaps, etc.

Thanks for reading!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

The Kentucky Cardinal in its final days took 4.5 hrs from CHI-IND, and 8 hrs from IND-Louisville. From April 28 2003 national timetable:

http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=20030428n&item=0029

The section from Indianapolis to Louisville was particularly slow, and only made it a few years on its mail contract.

Story on the last Kentucky Cardinal run (both ways). It has a sad ending :

http://www.trainweb.com/travelogues/mattmelzer/2003g05a.html#sthash.txGp48R4.dpbs

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

My vote would be for the CIN-STL southern route, stopping in Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia if it can make it between CIN-STL on time and the new schedule is chosen (otherwise you'd be splitting and merging in the middle of the night). You'd add Louisville (and Evansville) to the Amtrak system and they would have access to STL west and CIN and the NEC heading east.

If the train can reach Centralia by 5:08pm CT passengers from Louisville and Evansville can catch the northbound Illini to Chicago. The southbound Saluki gets to Centralia at 12:16pm CT. Can you leave Centralia around 1pm CT and get to CIN by 7:30pm ET? If so, then you now have Louisville-Centralia-Chicago both ways. Otherwise, you'd have to go all the way to STL and take a Lincoln service train. Maybe you can move the Saluki earlier.

Who owns the CIN-STL southern route through Louisville? The IND-STL northern route?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.

Connect from Cardinal 7:46A

CIN 8:00A

LVL 11:00A/11:15A

[Time Change Eastern to Central]

CEN 6:15P

The Illini already departed an hour ago

STL 8:15P

Texas Eagle already departed at 8:00P. Even if we eliminate the 15-minute wait at LVL, it still wouldn't work because the train would get in right when the TXE is leaving.

Texas Eagle hasn't arrived yet

STL 6:45A

CEN 8:45A (A Carbondale-Centralia-Louisville train isn't that useful . . .)

[Time Change Central to Eastern]

LVL 5:45P/6:00P

CIN 9:00P

Connect to Cardinal 9:17P

Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.

The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.

The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.

The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).

The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).

 

[railbuck]

Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.

It's INDOT that needs to start thinking bigger. If they do, it seems likely that IP would work with them to implement whatever route they are willing to fund.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.

Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.

The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.

The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.

The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).

The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).

Then I would do the northern IND-STL route so two stops, Terre Haute and Effingham. I wouldn't be as concerned about the Illini/Saluki connection north which would only be used by one city (Terre Haute). If you used the old National Limited schedules, there should be enough time to make it between the Cardinal departure/arrival into IND and the Texas Eagle departure/arrival into STL.

Now with the CIN-Louisville pairing taking around 3-4 hrs, you could extend my Ohio State Limited south to Louisville. Depending on which schedule you use, you are looking at a morning departure from Louisville and an evening arrival into Louisville. But they would need turning/storage facilities (then again so would Cincinnati if you had a full overnight NYP-CIN with sleepers rather than the through cars that were suggested by AAO). Extending then to Nashville (around 6 hrs) would put the arrival/departure times in the graveyard shift then.

This is getting too ambitious now but the OSL can then go to Louisville and then to St. Louis the next day traveling overnight during those 10 hrs Louisville-St. Louis. The train would then depart STL the previous night and arrive in Louisville the next morning. So NYP-STL would require two overnights (leave NYP Sunday night and arrive STL Tuesday morning) so I'm guessing no one will travel the full route.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

A long time ago (1979), there were two trains that ran from CHI to Texas, the Inter-American that traveled through STL (pretty much the current TE route) and the Lone Star that traveled through KCY and OKC.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/?p=638634

They used the metric passenger miles per train mile (PM/TM). It found that the Lone Star had almost twice the PM/TM of the Inter-American. The 1979 study recommended saving both of them but the Lone Star was the one cut while the Inter American became the Texas Eagle route today.

My plans if I were in charge in 1979 (I was just a kid back then though) would have been to merge the Inter-American and National Limited (a train traveling from STL to NYP at the time via IND and Columbus) to create a train from the NEC to Texas via STL (the Inter-American would then not serve CHI while the Lone Star would). You've essentially saved both lines with the exception of the CHI-STL portion of the Inter-American (which was already served).

In a really, really dream world, you can extend one of these trains from the NEC to STL to Texas along the current TE route through Little Rock and then reroute the current TE to serve KCY and OKC (you can even split/merge the SWC and TE at KCY). So Texas would have a train to CHI via KCY and a train to the NEC via STL. So maybe that STL leg off the Cardinal becomes a Texas leg. OK, that's too ambitious.

 

[neroden]

The main problem preventing the Lone Star restoration is train-hostile state governments in Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas.

(On another topic... when Texas "goes blue" as it is demographically expected to do soon, the southern border is going to be a large part of that majority in the legislature. Maybe it's worth thinking seriously about routes to Brownsville and Laredo.)

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Reconsidering Louisville/Nashville service:

The last Kentucky Cardinal took about 5 hrs between IND and Louisville.

The Floridian (1978: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19780430&item=0041) took about 4 hrs between Louisville and Nashville

Assuming the Hoosier State ran daily in the current Hoosier State/Cardinal times (6:00am departure from IND to CHI, 11:50pm arrival to IND from CHI), you could have

850 851

Chicago (CT) 5:45pm 10:05am

Indianapolis (ET) 11:50pm/12:30am 5:00am/6:00am

Louisville (ET) 5:30am/6:00am 11:30pm/12:00am

Bowling Green (CT) 7:15am 8:15pm

Nashville (CT) 9:00am 6:30pm

The Louisville times aren't great but not deal breakers IMO. Louisville probably would take anything right now. You would have overnight between CHI and Nashville.

Another possibility is a Nashville to Cincinnati with connections to the shifted Cardinal

Cincinnati (to/from NEC) (51) 7:36am (50) 9:27pm

451 450

Cincinnati (ET) 9:00am 8:30pm

Louisville (ET) 1:00pm 4:30pm

Bowling Green (CT) 2:45pm 12:45pm

Nashville (CT) 4:00pm 11:30am

I'm not sure if there is any precedence for two through cars on the same train. If possible, the Cardinal can have trains CIN-Nashville and IND-STL. But even if it requires a transfer at CIN, the times aren't horrible like the current ones are. Who would want to arrive in CIN in the middle of the night and spend 2-3 hrs in CIN's station? The northbound train can be pushed up if it can't get to CIN by 8:30pm on a regular basis.

The IND to Nashville would be overnight and require a sleeper but the CIN to Nashville would be roughly a day train.

If Louisville, Bowling Green, and Nashville had both these trains, they can use CHI to connect westward and CIN to connect eastward (and with the earlier Cardinal arrival into WAS, maybe even south to Florida on the SM and Atlanta on the Crescent). Also, Louisville and Nashville would have two trains between the cities a day.

So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?

 

[Eric S]

So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?

My guess is that it's unlikely KY and TN would fund intercity passenger trains at this time. And, no, KY did not subsidize the Kentucky Cardinal's operations. (I think either the city or state may have funded some infrastructure to extend the train over the Ohio River into Louisville itself, but I could be wrong about that. Initially the train's terminus was Jeffersonville IN [suburban Louisville].)

 

[neroden]

In Tennessee, the locality pushing hardest for train service is currently Chattanooga. Memphis seems to be interested in the possibility of an additional frequency to Chicago. Nashville keeps trying ineffectually to expand its commuter rail.

In Kentucky, the last train advocacy I can remember was for Louisville-Lexington service and it's gone completely dormant. There doesn't seem to be any active group advocating for anything else. If any city wants service it's Louisville, but the advocacy level is pretty low even by American standards; it seems more dormant than the advocacy for Scranton, PA service. Perhaps the best that can be done for Kentucky in the medium term is to make the Cardinal daily.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Maybe the CIN-Nashville and/or IND-STL routes can be considered part of the Cardinal. There's no precedence for two through car branches off the same train, maybe this can be the guinea pig. Technically they could make the IND-STL route a part of the Texas Eagle but then technically they would have two through car branches (if you consider the Sunset Limited a through car branch of the TE). Could they run either or both and require a cross platform transfer and still consider them part of the Cardinal (according to the PRIIA, the SL will essentially become a NOL-SAS branch of the TE)?

Which set of tracks are in better shape, the IND-STL route or the CIN-Nashville route? The STL connection would be important for a connection from the Cardinal to the Texas Eagle in STL (especially if the Cardinal connections in CHI are broken) but the ability to add two new major cities to the Amtrak system is also appealing as well.

Right now my base plan would be:

Daily Hoosier State CHI-IND using the current Hoosier State/Cardinal schedule.

Daily Cardinal CHI-NYP with eastbound leaving 6 hrs earlier and westbound leaving 6 hrs later so the trains can serve CIN at better hours.

Any additional service (STL branch, CIN-Nashville, extension of Hoosier State to either Louisville/Nashville or Cincinnati) would be gravy.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

What do you mean by gravy?

I basically agree with your idea. The New River Gorge and Huntington WV has to go (it's for the best), or otherwise served by a (NYP)-WAS-HUN-WAS-(NYP) day train (kinda like the Palmetto).

I'm also thinking that the Hoosier State schedule could be . . . changed somehow? But then, there's nothing better.

And sorry for saying that the Kentucky Cardinal took 8 hours IND-LVL. That was just padding I assume (4 hours though? :blink: ), and indeed it took only 4 hrs 10 mins LVL-IND. Probably would take 5-6 hrs today, like you said.

Time for Kentucky to get more trains!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

In a dream world, this would happen.

Yellow is existing service, Red is discussed possible service, magenta is possible, but not absolutely needed, and pink is wishful thinking.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I think IND-Louisville should be red and I'm not sure what route the CHI to Nashville would take (looks like far eastern Illinois and western Kentucky, what stops would it make?)

I believe Nashville to ATL has been discussed on this group but most of the response was it would not work.

 

[Eric S]

I think IND-Louisville should be red and I'm not sure what route the CHI to Nashville would take (looks like far eastern Illinois and western Kentucky, what stops would it make?)

I believe that would be the former L&N.

Terre Haute IN, Evansville IN, and Clarksville TN would be the largest population centers between Chicago and Nashville.

I'd suggest looking into getting some rail atlases - I like the ones put out by Steam Powered Videos out of the UK (see here) - it would really help you figure out what lines exist (or did as of the printing) and where they run.

 

[jis]

Also get a copy of the Official Railway Guide from one of the years in the '60s. It will help you with what is or is not realistic given the infrastructure that was in place back then, duly modulated with information from the rail atlases mentioned above to account for infrastructure lost since then.

I find the 1965 summer edition that I have very useful. More recently I have acquired a set of DVD's containing all Official Railway Guides ever published, which is kind of fascinating for killing time, if not anything else.

 

[neroden]

Really. Jis, where can I get those DVDs... and how far back do they go?

The first Official Guide was published in 1868, and it was *MONTHLY*. Even though that's a good 38 years after US railway development started, I'd still find the very early ones fascinating.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Indeed, I have been using my Autumn 1963 Official Guide to the Railways that I got for 2 bucks at the Illinois Railway Museum! It's just before all the trains went away, so I can still see what was running. I've only had to look up the schedules Cincinnati OH - Louisville KY - St. Louis MO because L&N discontinued that in 1958.

Also, the Chicago IL - Evansville IN - Nashville TN route doesn't go through Clarksville TN, though it's close. Hopkinsville KY, a good candidate for a stop, would be 24 miles from Clarksville TN, and small-town Guthrie KY is 13 miles from Clarksville TN.

Note that on the map, there probably isn't a direct St. Louis MO - Louisville KY - Cincinnati OH train to connect with the Cardinal. There would, of course as discussed above, a St. Louis MO - Effingham IL - Terre Haute IN - Indianapolis IN train to connect from the Texas Eagle to the Cardinal, avoiding Chicago and serving new cities.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I made Indianapolis IN - Louisville KY red, as well as some minor rerouting north of Terre Haute IN because of an error I made, and west of Jacksonville FL for more detail (kind of unrelated).



Note that the red route south of Nashville goes through rural corners of Alabama and Georgia to reach Chattanooga TN, then turns back south through Georgia to connect with the Crescent at Atlanta GA. I am quite busy at the moment, so I will try to make schedules for these routes later (which might not be until Friday).

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

And how would Nashville TN - Chattanooga TN - Atlanta GA not work? Rickety track? I guess I will come up with schedules later.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

And how would Nashville TN - Chattanooga TN - Atlanta GA not work? Rickety track? I guess I will come up with schedules later.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/?p=632454

 

[Eric S]

Also, the Chicago IL - Evansville IN - Nashville TN route doesn't go through Clarksville TN, though it's close. Hopkinsville KY, a good candidate for a stop, would be 24 miles from Clarksville TN, and small-town Guthrie KY is 13 miles from Clarksville TN.

Ugh. Thanks for the correction. That's what I get for not consulting the rail atlas that I referenced before making that comment.

 

[jis]

Really. Jis, where can I get those DVDs... and how far back do they go?

The first Official Guide was published in 1868, and it was *MONTHLY*. Even though that's a good 38 years after US railway development started, I'd still find the very early ones fascinating.

You can order it through amazon.com. It is actually produced and sold by Taplines. Don Hensley is the person who does it. He is out of Bartow FL, and is a very nice guy.

As far as I can tell the set contains virtually everything from 1868 to 1969. Before 1868 there were no Official Guides. What is included is the 1848 Appleton's Railway Guide and the 1851 American Railway Guide.

Here is a direct link to the page for the whole set. You can also order each of the three DVDs in the set individually.

Official Guide Railway Collection 1848 - 1969

I actually overstated on the "every one ever published, since the Official Guide was published for several years after 1969. I have a 1971 paper copy. Incidentally I also have a paper copy facsimile of the 1868 first issue.