TSA Raids Austin Amtrak Station

[Devil's Advocate]

When they start doing random checks targeting a certain group of people and "finding" something wrong which results in these people being hauled off to somewhere out of site then you can compare us to Hitler's Germany.

I wonder what your view is on our modern gulag at Guantanamo, our previously hidden network of CIA black sites and extraordinary renditions, our use of prisons for political and religious persecution such as at Abu Ghraib, and our defense of torture so long as it was just shy of organ failure. Every country has its own version of crazy. Just because ours may not be identical to another's doesn't make it any more sane.

Here's a nice story about legal residents being targeted by random checks "finding" something wrong which results in them being hauled off.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/border-patrol-rewards-arrests-new-york_n_2591416.html

They say 'ignorance is bliss,' but you seem rather worried for someone this clueless.

 

[BCL]

There is a difference from the authorities coming into my property to search then me going to a place that is not my property where authorities are trying to keep everyone safe.

The Constitution disagrees.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and thepersons or things to be seized.

The 4th amendment applies to us everywhere, not just on your property.

My security and safety is reason enough for me. You may not agree.

Searching the bags of passengers as they're getting OFF of a train does exactly nothing to increase your security or safety.
Searching millions of bags, pockets and body cavities as people have boarded airplanes in the last 12 years have found nothing.

I'm all for reasonable security measures that actually provide security. Measures like this VIPR crap that only provide the illusion of security at the expense of our privacy need to go.

I wouldn't say "nothing". Many real weapons have been confiscated. I remember hearing of a member of the California Assembly who was convicted of misdemeanor possession of a loaded handgun at an airport.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/05/4164005/california-assemblyman-tim-donnelly.html

Assemblyman Tim Donnelly had a quick explanation Wednesday for why he brought a briefcase containing a loaded .45-caliber firearm into Ontario International Airport: He goofed.

Donnelly was cited on a misdemeanor charge of possessing a loaded firearm – a Colt Mark IV with four rounds in its magazine, plus a spare magazine with five rounds, said Nico Melendez of the federal Transportation Security Administration.

Screeners at the Southern California airport detected the firearm as Donnelly prepared to board a Southwest Airlines flight to the capital for the Assembly's first 2012 session.

 

[tomfuller]

You can have a firearm in your CHECKED baggage. You can't have any of these things in your carry on.

Just like airport security rules, Amtrak security rules prohibit carrying some things aboard -- directly from Amtrak.com, these are prohibited on board by Amtrak security:

Any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives, or weapon

Incendiaries, including flammable gases, liquids and fuels

Large, sharp objects such as axes, ice picks and swords

Corrosive or dangerous chemicals or materials, such as liquid bleach, tear gas, mace, radioactive and harmful bacteriological materials

Batteries with acid that can spill or leak (except those batteries used in motorized wheelchairs or similar devices for mobility-impaired passengers)

Club-like items, such as billy clubs and nightsticks

I just saw a TSA training video where the dog walked right past the girl with explosives in her backpack and keyed on an innocent person. They said that the dogs have to have monthly training so expect to see the TSA with their dog shows. Just wait until they get the ponies.

 

[Trogdor]

I wouldn't say "nothing". Many real weapons have been confiscated. I remember hearing of a member of the California Assembly who was convicted of misdemeanor possession of a loaded handgun at an airport.
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/05/4164005/california-assemblyman-tim-donnelly.html

Assemblyman Tim Donnelly had a quick explanation Wednesday for why he brought a briefcase containing a loaded .45-caliber firearm into Ontario International Airport: He goofed.

Donnelly was cited on a misdemeanor charge of possessing a loaded firearm – a Colt Mark IV with four rounds in its magazine, plus a spare magazine with five rounds, said Nico Melendez of the federal Transportation Security Administration.

Screeners at the Southern California airport detected the firearm as Donnelly prepared to board a Southwest Airlines flight to the capital for the Assembly's first 2012 session.

They've been screening for guns for decades, even without TSA pat-downs and nude-o-scopes.

 

[Ryan]

I'm sure that he was planning on shooting up the joint too.

 

[SP&S]

If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't have to worry. The only reason to complain is if you have something illegal.

I've heard this refrain over and over again from law enforcement types.

If it were really true, how come when a serious proposal was made to subject the local cops to random drug tests they and their union put up such a stink? If they didn't have anything to hide ........

 

[Ryan]

Some people believe that they're more equal than others.

 

[KWBud]

You can have a firearm in your CHECKED baggage. You can't have any of these things in your carry on.Just like airport security rules, Amtrak security rules prohibit carrying some things aboard -- directly from Amtrak.com, these are prohibited on board by Amtrak security:

Any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives, or weapon

I have wondered about this as it applies to Florida Concealed Carry Law.

In effect, the law says that Florida State Law applies everywhere except where explicitly overridden by Federal Law. However, the Amtrak rules are not Federal Law per se, so do they actually apply?

Now, Florida is not the Wild West and you can be denied access to certain private property if you are discovered to possess a weapon, but Amtrak does not qualify as private property under this law. So, for instance a if security at concert that checks everyone at the entrance found a weapon, you could be banned from the property, but (say) a mall that had a "no weapons" rule could not exclude you unless they discovered the weapon. If the weapon is really concealed, they should never know.

I had a few other comments, but I can't seem to find a way to separate quoted material, so I'll just let my other points go for now.

--

Bud

 

[BCL]

You can have a firearm in your CHECKED baggage. You can't have any of these things in your carry on.Just like airport security rules, Amtrak security rules prohibit carrying some things aboard -- directly from Amtrak.com, these are prohibited on board by Amtrak security:

Any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives, or weapon

I have wondered about this as it applies to Florida Concealed Carry Law.

In effect, the law says that Florida State Law applies everywhere except where explicitly overridden by Federal Law. However, the Amtrak rules are not Federal Law per se, so do they actually apply?

Now, Florida is not the Wild West and you can be denied access to certain private property if you are discovered to possess a weapon, but Amtrak does not qualify as private property under this law. So, for instance a if security at concert that checks everyone at the entrance found a weapon, you could be banned from the property, but (say) a mall that had a "no weapons" rule could not exclude you unless they discovered the weapon. If the weapon is really concealed, they should never know.

I had a few other comments, but I can't seem to find a way to separate quoted material, so I'll just let my other points go for now.

--

Bud

There's a long list of places where a Florida CCW permit holder is specifically not authorized to carry a weapon:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html
(12)(a) A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:

1. Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05;

2. Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;

3. Any detention facility, prison, or jail;

4. Any courthouse;

5. Any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;

6. Any polling place;

7. Any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;

8. Any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;

9. Any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;

10. Any elementary or secondary school facility or administration building;

11. Any career center;

12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

13. Any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;

14. The inside of the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or

15. Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

As you hinted, I don't believe it authorizes anyone to carry a weapon on private property where the owner/management has specifically prohibited weapons. Since you mentioned Florida, Walt Disney World specifically doesn't allow guests to bring in weapons.

Some states have explicit laws stating that private property owners and businesses may prohibit the carrying of firearms regardless of whether or not the person has a valid CCW permit. By the same token, in pretty much any state a private property owner may allow anyone on their property to carry a concealed weapon, and no permit is required. A homeowner can carry a weapon in a shoulder holster all they want in their own home.

Amtrak is actually quasi-public. For most purposes it's treated as a private company. If they have a policy against carrying weapons (except unloaded in checked luggage) on trains or at stations, then Florida CCW laws don't override their prerogative to not allow the traveling public to carry weapons. If they want to ban weapons on their trains, they can do so just like a private bus company can do the same.

 

[roadman3313]

Amtrak (NRPC) is technically a Private, for-profit corporation, whose largest investor is the Federal Government. Thus it is partially funded using public funds and has the President appoint to the Board of Directors.

Now a rail car is a "public" space to those who are ticketed or those who are employed or authorized to be there. But it restricted to the General Public as well.

Amtrak can set the rules but of people are insistent then they can pass legislation to be able to carry. The Wicker Amendment is federal legislation that did just that in regard to unloaded firearms checked luggage for rail travel. As for on board Amtrak policy would stand unless another law supersedes it I'd imagine.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If [Amtrak] wants to ban weapons on their trains, they can do so just like a private bus company can do the same.

This was certainly true in the past and Amtrak did in fact ban guns from their trains. However, thanks to Mississippi Senator Roger Wicker Amtrak is now explicitly forced by law to allow various guns aboard their trains. Currently this is limited to checked luggage but so far as I'm aware there is nothing to stop Congress from passing yet another gun rights law that forces Amtrak to allow any manner of weaponry as carry-on luggage in the future. Thankfully only responsible people own guns.

 

[KWBud]

As you hinted, I don't believe it authorizes anyone to carry a weapon on private property where the owner/management has specifically prohibited weapons. Since you mentioned Florida, Walt Disney World specifically doesn't allow guests to bring in weapons.
. . .

Amtrak is actually quasi-public. For most purposes it's treated as a private company. If they have a policy against carrying weapons (except unloaded in checked luggage) on trains or at stations, then Florida CCW laws don't override their prerogative to not allow the traveling public to carry weapons. If they want to ban weapons on their trains, they can do so just like a private bus company can do the same.

Since I still can't figure out how to split the quote, I'll separate the points in my response.

To the first point, Disney mostly lost that case when it went to the Florida Supreme Court. If they check everyone at the gate they can exclude weapons, but if they don't do so, then they would have to somehow identify someone who is carrying a weapon. If they can do that, then is the weapon actually concealed?

The second point is even more interesting. I will assume that the 15 exclusions that you listed are correct. Number 14 talks about "sterile area of any airport" but fails to mention any other public or private transportation system. It was written that way on purpose. And my lawyer's reading of the Florida Supreme Court decision would say that neither a public or private rail or bus system can prohibit weapons even if they do try to create a sterile area for that purpose.

Before, I made the statement that Florida is not the Wild West when it comes to guns. Perhaps I'm wrong on that point.

--

Bud

 

[BCL]

As you hinted, I don't believe it authorizes anyone to carry a weapon on private property where the owner/management has specifically prohibited weapons. Since you mentioned Florida, Walt Disney World specifically doesn't allow guests to bring in weapons.
. . .

Amtrak is actually quasi-public. For most purposes it's treated as a private company. If they have a policy against carrying weapons (except unloaded in checked luggage) on trains or at stations, then Florida CCW laws don't override their prerogative to not allow the traveling public to carry weapons. If they want to ban weapons on their trains, they can do so just like a private bus company can do the same.

Since I still can't figure out how to split the quote, I'll separate the points in my response.

To the first point, Disney mostly lost that case when it went to the Florida Supreme Court. If they check everyone at the gate they can exclude weapons, but if they don't do so, then they would have to somehow identify someone who is carrying a weapon. If they can do that, then is the weapon actually concealed?

The second point is even more interesting. I will assume that the 15 exclusions that you listed are correct. Number 14 talks about "sterile area of any airport" but fails to mention any other public or private transportation system. It was written that way on purpose. And my lawyer's reading of the Florida Supreme Court decision would say that neither a public or private rail or bus system can prohibit weapons even if they do try to create a sterile area for that purpose.

Before, I made the statement that Florida is not the Wild West when it comes to guns. Perhaps I'm wrong on that point.

--

Bud

I never heard of Disney losing any case. I heard that Disney got sued by an ex-employee (a security guard who was not authorized to carry his weapon on the job) after they fired him for having a gun locked in his vehicle trunk and parked in the employee parking lot. The law didn't extend the right to CCW permit holders. He was apparently trying to invoke what they call the "Take Your Gun to Work Law":

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=790.251&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.251.html

However, my understanding is that Disney is actually exempt from this law because of this section:

(7) EXCEPTIONS.—The prohibitions in subsection (4) do not apply toe) Property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which the primary business conducted is the manufacture, use, storage, or transportation of combustible or explosive materials regulated under state or federal law, or property owned or leased by an employer who has obtained a permit required under 18 U.S.C. s. 842 to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials on such property.

Guess what? Disney has an explosives permit under the federal regime because they shoot off pyrotechnics on a regular basis.

 

[KWBud]

I never heard of Disney losing any case.

Upon reviewing the situation, it seems that both sides claimed victory. My source of information was the attorney for Edwin Sotomayor. He is also happens to be my attorney, so that must have influenced my recollection of the incident.

In any event, Disney does do perimeter checks and therefore can exclude weapons. Upon reviewing the situation, it seems that there is no signage at the security checkpoint that says weapons are prohibited. Quite curious.

In any event, does Amtrak even attempt to create any kind "sterile (gun free) area?" Since it doesn't seem to fall into any of your 15 areas prohibited by law, then I don't see where the prohibition arises.

Disney has an explosives permit under the federal regime because they shoot off pyrotechnics on a regular basis.

How does this inform the discussion about Amtrak?

One question comes to mind. How many incidents are there (say, per year) where guns are an issue aboard Amtrak trains?

--

Bud

 

[sportbiker]

Guns = safety, so the goverment should require passengers on aircraft and Amtrak to carry loaded guns at all times. Lots of good people with guns will take care of any bad people with guns. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Guns = safety, so the goverment should require passengers on aircraft and Amtrak to carry loaded guns at all times. Lots of good people with guns will take care of any bad people with guns. What could possibly go wrong?

I love it!

If you read up on these sorts of events it's surprising how many times there was an armed security guard or off-duty police officer who was on the premises but was nonetheless helpless to prevent the bloodshed. So far as I can tell the primary difference between a "well regulated militia" full of tea bagging fanatics and a lawless gang of street thugs is the color of their skin and the areas they patrol.

 

[NW cannonball]

Guns = safety, so the goverment should require passengers on aircraft and Amtrak to carry loaded guns at all times. Lots of good people with guns will take care of any bad people with guns. What could possibly go wrong?

:unsure:

 

[JoeBas]

Slippery slope. Just because A happens, it does not mean B is going to happen.

Correct, "A" does not necessarily lead to "B"

But you can't get in order from "A" to Z" without going through B,C,D,E, and F, etc... You'd think by the time we got to where the "H" we are now some folks would be asking where it is we're going anyway.

Or, Machiavelli put it (you'd think he'd know a little bit about this stuff):

"for it happens in this, as the physicians say it happens in hectic fever, that in the beginning of the malady it is easy to cure but difficult to detect, but in the course of time, not having been either detected or treated in the beginning, it becomes easy to detect but difficult to cure. This it happens in affairs of state, for when the evils that arise have been foreseen (which it is only given to a wise man to see), they can be quickly redressed, but when, through not having been foreseen, they have been permitted to grow in a way that every one can see them, there is no longer a remedy."

 

[BCL]

I never heard of Disney losing any case.

Upon reviewing the situation, it seems that both sides claimed victory. My source of information was the attorney for Edwin Sotomayor. He is also happens to be my attorney, so that must have influenced my recollection of the incident.
In any event, Disney does do perimeter checks and therefore can exclude weapons. Upon reviewing the situation, it seems that there is no signage at the security checkpoint that says weapons are prohibited. Quite curious.

In any event, does Amtrak even attempt to create any kind "sterile (gun free) area?" Since it doesn't seem to fall into any of your 15 areas prohibited by law, then I don't see where the prohibition arises.

Again, there's nothing in Florida law that requires a private business to allow members of the public to carry weapons on their person. The "Take Your Gun to Work" law only applies to people with weapons stored in their vehicles. So someone parked at an Amtrak parking lot with a gun locked in the trunk would be within the law. I can't find anything within the laws that require there be a "sterile area" or security check before a business could ban weapons from its place of business.

And as far as I know Sotomayor didn't get his job back. What apparently did happen was that Disney relaxed their policy. Any employee parking at Walt Disney World was still not allowed to keep a gun in a vehicle. However, they had extended the policy to areas where they didn't shoot off fireworks, such as their offices in Kissimmee.

Disney has an explosives permit under the federal regime because they shoot off pyrotechnics on a regular basis.

How does this inform the discussion about Amtrak?
One question comes to mind. How many incidents are there (say, per year) where guns are an issue aboard Amtrak trains?

--

Bud

It happens.

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19084362/gun-arrest-at-amtrak-station

http://www.kcentv.com/story/16209172/update-man-shot-on-amtrak-train-didnt-fire-his-gun

http://www.wivb.com/dpps/news/nation/south/police-shoot-kill-suspect-on-train-in-dallas-nt11-jgr_4005850

Here's actually one about the TSA in Martinez, CA:

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/11/tsa-conducts-vipr-operation-at-amtrak.html

A VIPR operation in Martinez Thursday prompted a passenger to leave the train, appearing nervous, Melendez said.
An Amtrak police officer who noticed the passenger leaving stopped and searched him.

He was found to be carrying a .40-caliber handgun and ammunition, Melendez said.

 

[KrazyKoala]

This reminds me like last week on my NFL>NYP trip. I was innocently resting with my eyes closed and headphones in blasting music when someone forceful pushed me. I jumped up frightened as hell and looked over to see three guys in dark green uniforms start talking to me. I pulled my headphones out and said "huh?" The one guy very loudly said "WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM?" Caught off guard I choked and was like, "Austral...I mean, America, I think." How embarassing. I didn't know if they wanted to know where I was born or my coutry of citizenship. Needless to say, they asked for my papers cause of all my studdering. It turns out they were asking everyone on the train this question. I was just the only fool to make them question me.

 

[amamba]

This reminds me like last week on my NFL>NYP trip. I was innocently resting with my eyes closed and headphones in blasting music when someone forceful pushed me. I jumped up frightened as hell and looked over to see three guys in dark green uniforms start talking to me. I pulled my headphones out and said "huh?" The one guy very loudly said "WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM?" Caught off guard I choked and was like, "Austral...I mean, America, I think." How embarassing. I didn't know if they wanted to know where I was born or my coutry of citizenship. Needless to say, they asked for my papers cause of all my studdering. It turns out they were asking everyone on the train this question. I was just the only fool to make them question me.

Did you have your passport?

I just wonder what happens if they ask you this and you have no passport and they want to see your documentation. Because why would you bring your passport if you are going on a train trip solely within the US. I know I don't.

 

[AlanB]

This reminds me like last week on my NFL>NYP trip. I was innocently resting with my eyes closed and headphones in blasting music when someone forceful pushed me. I jumped up frightened as hell and looked over to see three guys in dark green uniforms start talking to me. I pulled my headphones out and said "huh?" The one guy very loudly said "WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM?" Caught off guard I choked and was like, "Austral...I mean, America, I think." How embarassing. I didn't know if they wanted to know where I was born or my coutry of citizenship. Needless to say, they asked for my papers cause of all my studdering. It turns out they were asking everyone on the train this question. I was just the only fool to make them question me.

Did you have your passport?

I just wonder what happens if they ask you this and you have no passport and they want to see your documentation. Because why would you bring your passport if you are going on a train trip solely within the US. I know I don't.

In my case I have an Enhanced Driver License; so they're done as soon as I show that. They can't ask me anymore questions once they see that.

But for others it could be a bigger problem.

 

[BCL]

This reminds me like last week on my NFL>NYP trip. I was innocently resting with my eyes closed and headphones in blasting music when someone forceful pushed me. I jumped up frightened as hell and looked over to see three guys in dark green uniforms start talking to me. I pulled my headphones out and said "huh?" The one guy very loudly said "WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM?" Caught off guard I choked and was like, "Austral...I mean, America, I think." How embarassing. I didn't know if they wanted to know where I was born or my coutry of citizenship. Needless to say, they asked for my papers cause of all my studdering. It turns out they were asking everyone on the train this question. I was just the only fool to make them question me.

Did you have your passport?

I just wonder what happens if they ask you this and you have no passport and they want to see your documentation. Because why would you bring your passport if you are going on a train trip solely within the US. I know I don't.

There is no legal requirement that a US citizen (naturalized or not) must carry any form of identification, nor proof of citizenship. A US permanent resident of adult age is required to carry a green card. In order to take Amtrak, theoretically one only needs some form of identification to match the name. I have actually seen people bringing foreign passports to an Amtrak ticket window to provide their names.

That being said, I've heard of US citizens living near the border obtaining US passport cards just in case and always carrying one. It could help if the next step (w/o proof of citizenship) would be to detain someone. And yes - it does happen that US citizens have been detained in immigration raids.

 

[the_traveler]

Alan has an Enhanced Driver's License which means he is allowed to drive under 20 MPH on any sidewalk in NYC! :giggle:

 

[KrazyKoala]

Well I have my state issued identification. I know before I became a citizen it said on the back when my visa expires. Now it looks like everyone elses.