Seaboard92
Engineer
I wonder if he could use a hand. I would volunteer my vacation time to help. I speak fluent Russian, German, and English. Somewhere I have his email I'll have to write to him.
Ukrainian trains still running
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I wonder if he could use a hand. I would volunteer my vacation time to help. I speak fluent Russian, German, and English. Somewhere I have his email I'll have to write to him.
It sounds like it one train a day. At this point I am sure there staff well.
neroden
Engineer
Finland also doesn't have cross-border links to Sweden or the rest of Europe. (Well, OK, one link in the far north which is economically impractical to use.)
Yes, so the two reasons for the gauge change:
(1) Russia actually did plan to use Ukrainian Railways for their military logistics. In Donbass, when they invaded in 2014, they did and still do use seized Ukrainian Railways for their logistics, and they are doing so west of Mariupol too. Ukraine blew a bunch of bridges near the border to prevent Russia from doing so in the rest of Ukraine during this invasion. Belarussian partisans who oppose Lukashenko did the same thing at the Belarus-Russian border. Having standard-gauged tracks will be a permanent defense against this.
(2) Ukraine is obviously not going to have significant interchange traffic with Russia for years to come. The war, the war crimes, and the looting has created a seething anger at Russia from ordinary Ukranians. And I don't think the situation will resolve quickly even after a peace deal-- consider that the Armenia-Turkey border has been closed for decades now. But Ukraine WILL have ever-increasing interchange traffic with Europe. There are multiple railway border crossings already: 5 with Poland (plus a 6th out of use), 2 with Slovakia, 2 with Hungary, 2 with Romania (plus a third out of use), and 2 more from Modolva to Romania. The gauge changes are seriously hampering integration with the European system and slowing down traffic. It's an economic development move to switch to standard gauge.
Most of Ukraine's railways are very modern but they still mostly use wooden ties. Changing the gauge is less of a nightmare than it is with concrete ties. And it's making it narrower, which is always easier than making it wider.
The big issue is having to regauge all the existing rolling stock, of which there is a lot. But Ukraine is motivated now. Might not happen. But it might.
It doesn't really make a difference with ordering rolling stock (all the major manufacturers can supply you with bogies of different widths) but it makes a big difference if you want to run trains -- both freight and passenger -- direct from Kyiv to Vienna or Warsaw, and they absolutely do want to do that.
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neroden
Engineer
By contrast, Lithuania has a single gauge-change point (connecting with Poland) so it isn't as economically troubling as having 13 gauge change points on so many borders. And they're building a standard-gauge line.
Of course this analysis could all change if there's a quick regime change in Russia, but it also might not. Ukrainians seem very intent on being economically independent of Russia after the war, and I don't blame them.
Of course this analysis could all change if there's a quick regime change in Russia, but it also might not. Ukrainians seem very intent on being economically independent of Russia after the war, and I don't blame them.
cirdan
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Just some points.
When Spain started the switchover to standard gauge back in about 1990, they were saying the entire system would be switched over within 25 years. That means that according to the original plan, they should have been done 6 years ago. In actual fact aside from the high speed lines and a couple of connecting routes, the rest of the system is mostly still broad gauge and will remain so for he forseeable future. They are quietly forgetting they ever promised a total changeover, but they have already spent several times the initially estimated budget and will have to live with a fragmented network for generations to come.
In other words, it's one of those things that sounds good from a comfortable distance, but that isn't as good when it comes to the nitty gritty details.
Similarly to the Ukraine, the Spanish changeover was justified largely for ideological reasons, to symbolize that Spain was part of Europe. Spanish train traffic has traditionally been largely internal with international trains being a tiny part of the mix. The change of gauge was thus only a minor inconvenience in the bigger picture of things and never justified the money that has gone into it. Despite the present day provision of a continuous standard gauge corridor from many parts of Spain into France, the overall traffic mix hasn't really changed. Spanish rail traffic is still largely internal, and actually more so than it was 25 years ago. Largely because truck competition has been fierce and the railroad has been rather lame at acquiring international traffic, as well as being naturally disadvantaged due to the nature of much of the traffic (trucks picking up fruit and vegetables directly on a farm in Spain and driving directly to a distribution center in Germany), whereas internal freight flows include a lot of coal, minerals, steel and things, traffic for which the railroad has a natural advantage and aptitude, even if trains are in some cases now having to take longer routes due to network fragmentation.
Also, I think railroads are on an operational level often pragmatic and not political. So I remember that it didn't take long after the ending of hostilities between Croatia and Serbia for example for trains to resume between the two countries. There was even a night train from Munich to Istanbul I think that crossed several conflicting countries across the Balkans and that was only interrupted for a very brief period at the height of the war. Pragmatism often trumps politics because people want to get back to their jobs. Across Ukraine this will be even more significant because an important investor here is China and they are basically upgrading and modernizing infrastructure so that they can send freight trains from China into Europe. Any Ukrainian government that says no to such money would be shooting themself in the foot. The Chinese are building a huge gauge changing facility on the Ukrainian- Hungarian border and probably don't like the idea of tearing it up and rebuilding it a thousand miles or so to the east on the Russian border. They'd rather pull out of Ukraine altogether and route their trains via Turkey instead (which they are already doing BTW). So if Ukraine wants that money they would do whatever it takes to get that traffic back.
Ukraine's rail system has actually been in steady decline over the last decades as car ownership has increased and also more people are flying. This will no doubt accelerate even further as Ukraine becomes more westernized and highway construction picks up which will make driving faster than the train on all key corridors. A massively disruptive program of spending money to change stuff for purely ideological reasons when they could be spending that money on actually improving things, could damage the system irrepairably.
When Spain started the switchover to standard gauge back in about 1990, they were saying the entire system would be switched over within 25 years. That means that according to the original plan, they should have been done 6 years ago. In actual fact aside from the high speed lines and a couple of connecting routes, the rest of the system is mostly still broad gauge and will remain so for he forseeable future. They are quietly forgetting they ever promised a total changeover, but they have already spent several times the initially estimated budget and will have to live with a fragmented network for generations to come.
In other words, it's one of those things that sounds good from a comfortable distance, but that isn't as good when it comes to the nitty gritty details.
Similarly to the Ukraine, the Spanish changeover was justified largely for ideological reasons, to symbolize that Spain was part of Europe. Spanish train traffic has traditionally been largely internal with international trains being a tiny part of the mix. The change of gauge was thus only a minor inconvenience in the bigger picture of things and never justified the money that has gone into it. Despite the present day provision of a continuous standard gauge corridor from many parts of Spain into France, the overall traffic mix hasn't really changed. Spanish rail traffic is still largely internal, and actually more so than it was 25 years ago. Largely because truck competition has been fierce and the railroad has been rather lame at acquiring international traffic, as well as being naturally disadvantaged due to the nature of much of the traffic (trucks picking up fruit and vegetables directly on a farm in Spain and driving directly to a distribution center in Germany), whereas internal freight flows include a lot of coal, minerals, steel and things, traffic for which the railroad has a natural advantage and aptitude, even if trains are in some cases now having to take longer routes due to network fragmentation.
Also, I think railroads are on an operational level often pragmatic and not political. So I remember that it didn't take long after the ending of hostilities between Croatia and Serbia for example for trains to resume between the two countries. There was even a night train from Munich to Istanbul I think that crossed several conflicting countries across the Balkans and that was only interrupted for a very brief period at the height of the war. Pragmatism often trumps politics because people want to get back to their jobs. Across Ukraine this will be even more significant because an important investor here is China and they are basically upgrading and modernizing infrastructure so that they can send freight trains from China into Europe. Any Ukrainian government that says no to such money would be shooting themself in the foot. The Chinese are building a huge gauge changing facility on the Ukrainian- Hungarian border and probably don't like the idea of tearing it up and rebuilding it a thousand miles or so to the east on the Russian border. They'd rather pull out of Ukraine altogether and route their trains via Turkey instead (which they are already doing BTW). So if Ukraine wants that money they would do whatever it takes to get that traffic back.
Ukraine's rail system has actually been in steady decline over the last decades as car ownership has increased and also more people are flying. This will no doubt accelerate even further as Ukraine becomes more westernized and highway construction picks up which will make driving faster than the train on all key corridors. A massively disruptive program of spending money to change stuff for purely ideological reasons when they could be spending that money on actually improving things, could damage the system irrepairably.
Medicine sans Frontieres is running a different sort of special train, according to the BBC.
Hospital train - for civilians
Hospital train - for civilians
Here's an update on how things are going. Along with everything else they are moving grain that might otherwise have gone out of the Black Sea ports,
Russia's attacks on Ukraine's supply lines are intensifying. Ukraine's national railway hasn't buckled (msn.com)
Russia's attacks on Ukraine's supply lines are intensifying. Ukraine's national railway hasn't buckled (msn.com)
bunchesofun
Train Attendant
We did a roundtrip from Kiev to either Mukachevo or Uzhhorod in 2020 (can't remember which) when we traveled to adopt our son. They served tea in those Russian cups with the glasses in a metal holder. I remember the bathroom floor was incredibly "wet" and when you flushed you saw the ground underneath the train. 17 hour ride. And back with our son.
cirdan
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There have always been significant bulk grain flows across Eastern Europe, at least from my railfanning perspective. At certain times of the year you could see long grain trains in short succession trundling through Hungary for example. I always assumed these must be from Ukraine but they might also be from Romania. The grain hoppers had mostly French markings (according to the RIV codes), but also some Dutch, Belgian and German, so I am assuming that is where they were heading.
There was a lot of heavyweight equipment used in U.S. commute service or excursions that offered views of the track when flushed. It made the plumbing simple.
The tea in glass always seemed to be an Eastern or Central European thing, except that my grandmother - born in Oregon - had a set of them, too. I'm glad that you had the opportunity to see a bit of the country, aside from your successful mission.
west point
Engineer
Does anyone know if all the affected rail facilities turn rail cars quickly? Thinking of 1 day or even12 hours.
Bombed bridge replaced and service restored.
Ukraine war: Rebuilt Kyiv railway bridge a symbol of hope - BBC News
Ukraine war: Rebuilt Kyiv railway bridge a symbol of hope - BBC News
In this unusual situation it's hard to say. From watching European rail operations, it appears that as in the U.S. it depends on what type of service the cars are in. In 1971 I noticed that the train that used to be the Balt-Orient Express was departing Munich late, even though it was originating there. I asked a carman about it, and he explained that it had arrived late from the southeast. It had to be fumigated. On the other hand, commuter emu's were turned quickly.
I did get the impression that the Russians were sitting on a lot of spare cars, which allowed for long layovers.
More coverage, including the assistance of railroaders from outside of Ukraine. I'm reminded that the North Vietnamese kept putting their railway back into service in spite of "air power" attacks. As long as the replacement parts keep coming in...
Russian attacks on rail system fail to paralyze 'lifeline of Ukraine' | Reuters
Russian attacks on rail system fail to paralyze 'lifeline of Ukraine' | Reuters
west point
Engineer
If the RR could get enough lift the bridge appears easily raised with temp support at rail level.
cirdan
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My own recent observations have been on Hungary's Balaton south shore line. The intercity train we travelled on overtook several long grain trains that had been put into sidings, many pulled by pairs of Slovak engines. We later went for a walk along the lake side from where we could also see the rail line and about four long grain trains passed us in about an hour. They had to be juggled in between the fairly frequent passenger trains and bear in mind this is a single track line, so that is quite an impressive achievement.
We didn't see any such trains going the other way so I assume the empties must be returning via a different route.
But all that said, this route does not appear to me to be a particularly logical or obvious route to run into Austria. A more likely destination might be Italy or one of the Adriatic ports (Trieste maybe?).
cirdan
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Recent shots from Budapest kelenföld (taken on Wednesday evening) of the Kiew to Budapest train with two Ukrainian sleeping cars on the back . The rest of the train was made up of Hungarian day cars that started at the Hungarian Ukrainian border station at Szolnok. I think this train continues to Vienna.
jis
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First a load of watermelons from the Kherson region, then an unusual promotional ticket.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...pc=U531&cvid=a4ee9dbdf0f84ebf92246a3a9f66e056
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...pc=U531&cvid=a4ee9dbdf0f84ebf92246a3a9f66e056
A ride to the front on a fast train.
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-train-front-line-russia-war-4e0547023d456e9f1a0c33372704cdf3
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-train-front-line-russia-war-4e0547023d456e9f1a0c33372704cdf3
The only way to completely shut down a rail network is to occupy the country. And then the occupiers need the railroads.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=868e35736a6f4380a314e069a5b59ac4&ei=12
Link to Forbes article via MSN.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=868e35736a6f4380a314e069a5b59ac4&ei=12
Link to Forbes article via MSN.
