Unrealized ridership potential of existing services

[PVD]

Empire Service is pretty good if you are not going past Albany, and as to departing from NYP, it is not a pleasant place, but it is extremely convenient for many people, and the airports and bus terminals in this area are no picnic grounds either.

 

[A Voice]

The former NYNH&H seemed to have their act together, when switching frequent NEC electric to steam or diesel power, or vice-versa at New Haven. IIRC, they were carded just 7 minutes, and they did it in that time, or less.

The PRR did similar at Harrisburg with thru trains...

And the NYC at Croton-Harmon...

I've actually seen Amtrak do an engine change in six minutes. Circa 1983 on the short-lived Metroliner service between Boston and New York, our train was carded just 6 minutes dwell time in New Haven for the necessary engine change from diesel to electric. They made the switch in the allotted time, too (not that I might have been timing them or anything...).

First car was the dinette; We were at the front of the second car. I got up to go watch the engine change, and in the time it took 5 or 6 people to get off and clear the vestibule, by the time I stepped into the first car I was already looking at the end of an AEM-7.

The fact that they can - and have - done better proves Albany and Washington all the more unnecessary.

 

[PVD]

Because of current safety procedures, you will likely never see the times that were previously attained. That being said, I don't think anyone doesn't believe it can't be better than it is.

 

[Seaboard92]

I've had a lot of experiences on 91 in WAS arriving on time to a few minutes early. And the engine change taking the better part of 90 minutes and leaving an hour or more late. And thats happened to me three times now so it isn't an isolated incident. One time they took the electric off and the crew switching was sitting at a picnic table nearby for half an hour before doing anything else.

The only excusable delay I've had in Washington was when the air hose completely snapped off and they had to get a new one and install it. And I want to say the problem was on the engine and not the baggage car.

Just curious, but do the problems appear to be the result of lethargic switching procedures or is the (diesel) power not ready when the train arrives? We know Amtrak is chronically short of power (exacerbated by locomotives badly in need of some time in the shop), which is the only excuse I can think of for sitting around half an hour.

Either way, delays getting out of Washington shouldn't be happening (A major Amtrak terminal, and its own rails north of there).

Every time the engines are sitting one track over idling. Usually several engines hanging out down there.

 

[Thirdrail7]

This may drive things off topic, but I will address some of it.

Looking through ASMAD, the Meteor seems to have a problem at NYP. Basically, the train's average delay out of NYP for the last six months is about 17 minutes. Granted, this is skewed by some major delays...but given that none of the LD trains out of NYP do a same-day turn, this really should not be happening unless there's a bona fide emergency. The fact that 19, 49, 51, 89, and 91 all make it out without gross delays (the average is <5 minutes for all the others) means that there's a problem on Amtrak's end.

There are a couple of major things about 97 that often lead to delays. The major problem with initial terminal delay is equipment troubles. It is the last train to get serviced and the first train to get robbed. I've explained it briefly in the past:

I'm sorry to divert from teh topic but I feel this needs to be addressed. Jis, while you are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. The reality of the situation is SSYD movements (or in your opinion, lack thereof) has nothing to do with laziness. It is a byproduct of the cuts in mechanical department personnel. If 98 manages to arrive on time, the train is inspected. If everything is fine, that is good. If something has to come out for repairs, pm , etc, there is no one to work on the equipment until the next morning. Same thing goes for 92, 20 and 48. This is because they eliminated the entire overnight shift devoted to the long hauls (51 is made up during the day) while the remaining overnight crews deal with the regional and day trippers. Now, daylight has to scramble to make repairs and 97 is last out, so it is the first train to lose equipment if (for example) 91 is short a dining car and the last train to get worked. If repairs aren't forthcoming (or their is a shortage of equipment), the next move is to wait for PD98 or PD20 to arrive.

Such was the case today. SSYD has been short views and they moved up equipment leaving 97 without views. 98 arrives at 143pm and 20 is completely behind the 8 ball, so obviously 97 is going to take a hit. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that it is Wednesday, which means 51 (which along with 50 operates with 2 views) was not available to fill in.

The aforementioned trains that leave without gross delay often come at 97's expense. Once it gets on the road, it has a very slim slot on the NEC. It is routinely overtaken by an Acela that often runs late from Metro-North Territory. Once it is brushed aside, it has an 8 minute window at Baltimore. If it is not ready to depart at 626pm, it will end up behind a MARC train and lose more time. It snowballs.

My experience on the Star, the few times I have traveled on 91 is that it shows up in Washington more or less on time and then somehow manages to depart half an hour late for no apparent reason.

I've had a lot of experiences on 91 in WAS arriving on time to a few minutes early. And the engine change taking the better part of 90 minutes and leaving an hour or more late. And thats happened to me three times now so it isn't an isolated incident. One time they took the electric off and the crew switching was sitting at a picnic table nearby for half an hour before doing anything else.
The only excusable delay I've had in Washington was when the air hose completely snapped off and they had to get a new one and install it. And I want to say the problem was on the engine and not the baggage car.

I've had a lot of experiences on 91 in WAS arriving on time to a few minutes early. And the engine change taking the better part of 90 minutes and leaving an hour or more late. And thats happened to me three times now so it isn't an isolated incident. One time they took the electric off and the crew switching was sitting at a picnic table nearby for half an hour before doing anything else.
The only excusable delay I've had in Washington was when the air hose completely snapped off and they had to get a new one and install it. And I want to say the problem was on the engine and not the baggage car.

Just curious, but do the problems appear to be the result of lethargic switching procedures or is the (diesel) power not ready when the train arrives? We know Amtrak is chronically short of power (exacerbated by locomotives badly in need of some time in the shop), which is the only excuse I can think of for sitting around half an hour.

Either way, delays getting out of Washington shouldn't be happening (A major Amtrak terminal, and its own rails north of there).

Every time the engines are sitting one track over idling. Usually several engines hanging out down there

I'll take all of this at once. First of all, it is likely Seaboard has zero idea of what or who he is looking at. I've hung out at that picnic table while waiting for trains and I have zero involvement in the switching operations. Secondly, they may have been actually waiting for their next move. Was the diesel shopped? Did mechanical request a hold? There are plenty of things that occur and one that is left out is interference.

If you take a look at 91's slot at WAS, if things are operating correctly, 92 is there at the same time. Train 95 is due out as 91 is scheduled to arrive in WAS, meaning they shouldn't meet. However, if 95 is operating roughly 12 minutes late out of NYC, it will eventually get pushed aside for an Acela (2155) If it is 20 minutes late, it gets hung up by 43 and 2155 and 91 will operate on its heals. 95 will eventually get hung up behind the same MARC train that 91 usually catches. Now, they are all arriving WAS at roughly the same time. Lo and behold, when 91 arrives in WAS, the crew that is assigned to switch 91 is starting to switch 95 since its diesels are ahead of 91's. The electricians and mechanical department may start their work on 91 by preparing for the change (pulling the cables, securing the equipment, hanging the backup hose, etc) . However, the T&E crew now must cut 95's electric, and put the diesels on before they commence work on 91. During that time, if there are no mechanical issues on 91, the mechanical crews are probably hanging around the table until someone removes/adds the engines.

Another thing that wasn't covered is what happens south. If CSX can't handle the train, it will sit. Yesterday was a perfect example. 145 and 99 sat in DC since CSX couldn't handle them because of track work.

So, while the reasons are not apparent, there are many simple things that can delay trains. A rock in a switch point can do severe damage to an operation that is sensitive to congestion, like WAS, BOS and NYP. If you're short a crew, that is even worse.

 

[Anderson]

Thirdrail7,
Just wanted to thank you for the details on what leads to those delays. I knew the windows were tight but I didn't realize how tight they were (nor that consequence of the thou-shalt-not-delay policy on the Acela).

 

[Seaboard92]

I want to thank you as well for clarifying that as well. I can tell you about the PV world but not about Amtrak operations. So thanks for all of your knowledge.

 

[Hytec]

Thank you for pointing out that railroad operation is not the well-oiled smoothly operating machine with perfectly meshed gears that we all wish it was. Trains are constrained by two rails and necessary sequence of events, unlike other modes of transportation where movement and routes are generally at the discretion of the individual driver/operator.

 

[A Voice]

Thirdrail7,

Thanks for adding your comments. It is not only quite interesting, but also helps shed some light on our observations.

 

[neroden]

Thirdrail, I appreciate the details on WAS and NYP operations. Makes sense.

Eliminating the overnight shift at NYP for long-distance trains seems deeply pound-foolish (given that there are *six* long-distance trains departing from NYP counting the Palmetto). I mean, I would totally understand eliminating such a shift at WAS or BOS, but not NYP.

Any ideas on Albany? Every time I've eavesdropped on the radio, there really do seem to have been delays running paperwork from one person to another (by hand!) (And apparently it's even slower if they have to copy it over the radio.) I wonder if office relocations -- or better sidewalks -- would help! (Better pathways from the platforms to the dispatcher's office to the mechanical shops to the bridge operator's location... doesn't sound like a very expensive project!)