VIA Rail Canadian and the Canadians

[greatwestern]

I "studied" French in senior school for 3 years and got my exam pass (UK General Certificate of education, ordinary level) but never actually used the language in anger - good job too as being a Bristolian I often think I struggle with English !!

However bringing this back on track to the Canadian train in 1980 I travelled from Toronto to Calgary with my 7 month old daughter. With our youngster in tow our requirements in the dining car were of necessity somewhat specific - despite this the crew were almost dismissive of us because we could not converse in French.

Once the crew changed in Winnipeg it was a totally different story and they could not have been more helpful.

On subsequent journeys on the Canadian in more recent times I have experienced no problems because of my lack of language skills.

 

[SubwayNut]

I think the main question to ask is how old were the employees in question not wanting to speak in French/English?

I think today to be hired by VIA you have to be fully bilingual, but they can't fire any long-term employees who aren't bilingual. On my one full length trip on the Canadian in Spring (March) I remember this strange, agist and slightly sexist, dynamic between my sleeper attendant who was a relative young woman (and had just been called up from being furlowed for the winter) and the other sleeping car attendant, a much older gentleman who proudly talked about how he had been making beds since 1970. The older gentleman didn't speak French, the younger attendant was bilingual.

I remember in Northern Ontario a gentleman boarded who the crew recognized as a regular who only spoke French, and the dining car attendant went right into speaking French for him at our table. He finished before the other 3 of us had left, and they
attendant discretely asked us if we knew of any passengers who probably spoke French to seat him with at dinner. There was a young family from Montreal (the Dad worked in special projects for VIA, I later found him on YouTube in a promotional video for a new accessible room on the Ocean) who we knew spoke French and sure enough at dinner they sat the francophone passenger with them and I saw them chatting away in French.

 

[jiml]

French is de rigueur for public services in Canada, including the airlines and VIA. However demographics have changed over the years and it is not as widely spoken outside Quebec due to many factors, including immigration from non French-speaking countries. A recent survey projected Chinese (Mandarin/Cantonese) to surpass French as the country's second most-spoken language. This creates a limited hiring pool for the public service since French speakers are far more likely to be bilingual than the other way around. We're all taught French but if you don't use it you lose it. Guilty as charged. French is far less likely to be needed the further west one goes from Quebec, although there are pockets elsewhere as others have noted. The treatment of French speakers in the example given is unacceptable, however these are the cases that get the attention and media coverage. The reverse is seldom discussed, such as Border Services people and airport staff who are rude to English speakers in Quebec. I have had more than one stern lecture about how being Canadian requires being able to speak French. It goes through cycles over the years... in my early days of business travel we were coached to carry and flash American money when working in Quebec to receive English service in hotels, bars and restaurants. Fortunately my French was passable back then, although it did get repetitive ordering the things I knew or could remember.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Ironically I never got any French instruction in 3 years of schooling in Ontario but had 5 years of it once we moved to Boston. This was in the 1950s when there seemed to be less emphasis on being bilingual as there is today

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Just out of curiosity was this in Eastern or Western Canada?

The Candian operates from Toronto to Vancouver but VIA Rail is a Crown corporation so all employees should be able to speak both English and French. Menus are printed in both languages and all train announcements are made in both languages.

 

[jis]

The Candian operates from Toronto to Vancouver but VIA Rail is a Crown corporation so all employees should be able to speak both English and French. Menus are printed in both languages and all train announcements are made in both languages.

IIRC, it does have two OBS crew districts - (Western) Vancouver to Winnipeg and (Eastern) Winnipeg to Toronto. But of course being a Crown Corporation the language requirements are the same irrespective of the district.

 

[Urban Sky]

French is de rigueur for public services in Canada, including the airlines and VIA. However demographics have changed over the years and it is not as widely spoken outside Quebec due to many factors, including immigration from non French-speaking countries. A recent survey projected Chinese (Mandarin/Cantonese) to surpass French as the country's second most-spoken language. This creates a limited hiring pool for the public service since French speakers are far more likely to be bilingual than the other way around. We're all taught French but if you don't use it you lose it. Guilty as charged. French is far less likely to be needed the further west one goes from Quebec, although there are pockets elsewhere as others have noted.

I recall that VIA opened a base for On-Train Staff in Ottawa maybe 5 years ago, given their struggle to attract enough candidates in Toronto which would be sufficiently fluent in both official languages and willing to work on the salary of a public-sector service job. I don’t want to know how much more challenging this is in Winnipeg and Vancouver (where all OTS for the Canadian are based), especially when recruiting for a job where you are away from your family for multiple days and have no realistic chance of year-round employment until you’ve gathered many years of seniority…

 

[zephyr17]

IIRC, it does have two OBS crew districts - (Western) Vancouver to Winnipeg and (Eastern) Winnipeg to Toronto. But of course being a Crown Corporation the language requirements are the same irrespective of the district.

The OBS crew base is in Winnipeg, and crews work both directions, just not on the same trip. A couple of times, some crew members working Vancouver-Winnipeg have been asked to stay on Winnipeg-Toronto due to staff shortages, usually working in a different capacity. On recent trip the Prestige Park Concierge/Lounge Steward Vancouver-Winnipeg stayed on Winnipeg-Toronto as a Sleeper Plus car attendant.

They used to have a small OBS base in Vancouver pre-COVID, but I don't think it came back. I don't think the Canadian ever had crews based in Toronto.

Winnipeg is not a big Francophone area

 

[Gemuser]

The Candian operates from Toronto to Vancouver but VIA Rail is a Crown corporation so all employees should be able to speak both English and French. Menus are printed in both languages and all train announcements are made in both languages.

Thank you for your answer, but that was NOT my question! Which was where did the incident described happen. I am fully aware of the requirement but I am also aware that it is often honored in the breach even in our equivalent to your Crown Corporation.

 

[Urban Sky]

Thank you for your answer, but that was NOT my question! Which was where did the incident described happen. I am fully aware of the requirement but I am also aware that it is often honored in the breach even in our equivalent to your Crown Corporation.

Even though everything East of Manitoba is commonly referred to as “Eastern Canada”, the on-train crew members (OTS) are the same which work the entire route from Toronto to Vancouver (though they are replaced by a fresh crew at Winnipeg), just like the overwhelming majority of Sleeper Plus passengers travels the entire distance (though often with a stopover at Jasper). I therefore struggle to see the relevance of your question, as I regard the Canadian as “Western Canadian” in its entire route…

 

[mcropod]

Just out of curiosity was this in Eastern or Western Canada?

My recollection is that it was on day two on my eastbound trip, so likely before Winnipeg, which is where I understand there's a crew change. Either way, as VIA is a national service, I expected that national policies would apply nationally. It'd be different here in Oz, as there's no national passenger rail provider, so it's State provisions which apply.

My antennae are sensitive to and aware of the social and political ramifications of using language as markers of either unity or separation, so the incident I referred to was a surprise to me when I encountered it.

As a traveller with a basic ability in Spanish (Castillian) I thought it best not to travel to the places within Spain where Castillian is a marker of cultural and political oppression, and so I decided to not be a participant in that.

 

[zephyr17]

My recollection is that it was on day two on my eastbound trip, so likely before Winnipeg, which is where I understand there's a crew change. Either way, as VIA is a national service, I expected that national policies would apply nationally. It'd be different here in Oz, as there's no national passenger rail provider, so it's State provisions which apply.

My antennae are sensitive to and aware of the social and political ramifications of using language as markers of either unity or separation, so the incident I referred to was a surprise to me when I encountered it.

As a traveller with a basic ability in Spanish (Castillian) I thought it best not to travel to the places within Spain where Castillian is a marker of cultural and political oppression, and so I decided to not be a participant in that.

While the OBS crews change at Winnipeg, they are based in Winnipeg and work out and back in both directions, so the crew will be made up folks currently residing in or near Winnipeg. That is not to say that just because they are now in Winnipeg, they didn't originally come from somewhere else, like Quebec. I have met many native French speakers on the OBS crew, but they are generally outnumbered by those for whom English is their native tongue. There are also many immigrants working for whom neither is their native tongue. But there really is no different in the crews on the eastern half versus western half of the trip.

With that said, there is no excuse for what you witnessed, just that whether it was east or west of Winnipeg doesn't make a difference of where the crew is from. They got on in Winnipeg.

 

[zephyr17]

Does VIA have a separate dorm car(s) on the Canadian?

The original train had a bag/dorm. These days VIA runs a regular sleeper as a crew car that shows as "deadhead" in the consist list. When I've ridden it in the Fall in recent years it was positioned between the rear diner and the Prestige Chateau(s). This summer it is apparently running between the coach Skyline dome and the first Sleeper Plus Manor.

VIA's diner runs with more staff than Amtrak's do. Both more waiters and food prep staff.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I wanted to add to this - when I rode in Coach a few weeks ago, I'd say at least half of the people up in the dome were speaking in French. This was on the route from Vancouver to Edmonton. I thought it was nice that the Cafe Attendant could speak both languages because he would come up to point out the scenery and he would tell us in both languages.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

VIA's diner runs with more staff than Amtrak's do. Both more waiters and food prep staff.

Just on 1 train though, the Canadian, which does not operate daily. Other VIA Rail trains operate with less staff.

When I just rode it, it looked like there was a sleeper on the very front of the train, not sure if that was a dead-head, buffer, or a crew sleeper.

 

[zephyr17]

Just on 1 train though, the Canadian, which does not operate daily. Other VIA Rail trains operate with less staff.

When I just rode it, it looked like there was a sleeper on the very front of the train, not sure if that was a dead-head, buffer, or a crew sleeper.

Usually actual deadheads are on the front between the baggage car and the engines. They deadhead cars fairly frequently, not sure why. VIA adjusts consists much, much more frequently than Amtrak, which might be part of the reason. Ferrying equipment to and from Jasper and Winnipeg for use on the Skeena and Hudson Bay is another reason.

The crew car "deadhead" is in the "live" consist. As I said, used to be between Prestige and the diner, now apparently between the coach Skyline and Sleeper Plus. A position that makes more sense, IMHO.

Dedicated "buffer cars" were not used on the forward end, the baggage car served as the forward buffer cars. That was the reason for the suspension of handling pets. Neither passengers nor OBS crew were permitted in a car serving as a buffer.

So a sleeper on the very front was almost certainly a true deadhead.

As to staffing, yes, the Canadian is the only train with full, traditional dining. The Ocean has pre cooked, reheated fare in its Renaissance diner, it isn't equipped for anything else. It is reported to be superior to Flex and, unlike Flex, is well presented. The Hudson Bay at last report had food service in a Skyline, which do have galleys.

Most VIA food service is provided by carts.

The only really direct comparison between Amtrak and VIA dining car services would be only for trains that have dining cars. Most trains in each system do not. VIA retains what used to be considered standard dining car staffing levels on the Canadian. BTW, during Peak season, while it is physically one consist, it carries two fully staffed diners.

 

[user 14106]

My biggest personal issue with the Canadian is that it isn't really an option for me. It takes too long and runs too infrequently for it to really be a usable transportation system and comparable alternative to Amtrak at least for someone in my position that is still working and doesn't like flying as an option for returning - I wouldn't be able to take that much time at work to use it and actually spend time where I want to go on the west coast. Even if Amtrak is 10 hours late the Canadian still takes longer and even when Amtrak cut to tri weekly it was still running more than the Canadian (which was suspended altogether.) If one has the time and is looking for the first class land cruise experience, I have no doubt the service standards on the Canadian are probably superior and far more consistent, but at this point it seems it's like comparing a transportation provider to a scheduled tourist train service. At the end of the day for me while I do enjoy the train travel experience the priority is actually getting where I need to be as conveniently as possible without having to fly. The Canadian would just be too difficult to schedule around. Having said that I hope to ride it one day just for the experience even if I have to wait until retirement days.

 

[Bob Dylan]

My biggest personal issue with the Canadian is that it isn't really an option for me. It takes too long and runs too infrequently for it to really be a usable transportation system and comparable alternative to Amtrak at least for someone in my position that is still working and doesn't like flying as an option for returning - I wouldn't be able to take that much time at work to use it and actually spend time where I want to go on the west coast. Even if Amtrak is 10 hours late the Canadian still takes longer and even when Amtrak cut to tri weekly it was still running more than the Canadian (which was suspended altogether.) If one has the time and is looking for the first class land cruise experience, I have no doubt the service standards on the Canadian are probably superior and far more consistent, but at this point it seems it's like comparing a transportation provider to a scheduled tourist train service. At the end of the day for me while I do enjoy the train travel experience the priority is actually getting where I need to be as conveniently as possible without having to fly. The Canadian would just be too difficult to schedule around. Having said that I hope to ride it one day just for the experience even if I have to wait until retirement days.

Old saying; "Ride it while you still can!"

If and when New Equipment is obtained to replace the Budd stuff, it won't be the same as now, and probably will be even more of an Expensive Luxury Land Cruise!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I have no doubt the service standards on the Canadian are probably superior and far more consistent, but at this point it seems it's like comparing a transportation provider to a scheduled tourist train service.

There are plenty of people that say the same about Amtrak Long Distance when comparing it to airlines. VIA still provides a transportation service with the Canadian and many of my fellow passengers in Coach were certainly riding it for transportation and not for a tourist train.

There are quite a few airlines that only offer certain routes once or twice a week, so daily service is not a requirement for "transportation provider."

I do agree that VIA rail's schedule can be frustrating and difficult to plan around, even compared to Amtrak who does a much better job with decent time-keeping and mostly daily departures. But I don't think that makes VIA less of a transportation provider.

 

[user 14106]

VIA still provides a transportation service with the Canadian and many of my fellow passengers in Coach were certainly riding it for transportation and not for a tourist train.

I have little doubt there are some that use it for that purpose along the route. But there remains a big difference usability wise between a daily train that takes 2 days and a twice weekly that takes 5. As imperfect as Amtrak is it seems in the US as dysfunctional as we can be we consider it a more serious transportation alternative than they do in Canada - not necessarily the fault of VIA itself but still reality. And again, in Canada, when Covid came they suspended it altogether and if I recall there was considerable questions about whether the Canadian and ocean would ever return. I think my greater point is that it’s easy to get caught up in the amenities, dining car, dome lounges, heritage budd equipment, and all the things rail enthusiasts love about the route and ignore the major usability drawbacks and forget that in some ways we’re lucky we have what we do in the US rather than what VIA offers - Amtrak’s issues aside. I suspect some of those passengers you speak of in coach would gladly give up some of the nostalgia in exchange for a daily service.

 

[Urban Sky]

I have little doubt there are some that use it for that purpose along the route. But there remains a big difference usability wise between a daily train that takes 2 days and a twice weekly that takes 5. As imperfect as Amtrak is it seems in the US as dysfunctional as we can be we consider it a more serious transportation alternative than they do in Canada - not necessarily the fault of VIA itself but still reality. And again, in Canada, when Covid came they suspended it altogether and if I recall there was considerable questions about whether the Canadian and ocean would ever return. I think my greater point is that it’s easy to get caught up in the amenities, dining car, dome lounges, heritage budd equipment, and all the things rail enthusiasts love about the route and ignore the major usability drawbacks and forget that in some ways we’re lucky we have what we do in the US rather than what VIA offers - Amtrak’s issues aside. I suspect some of those passengers you speak of in coach would gladly give up some of the nostalgia in exchange for a daily service.

Look up the population figures along the Canadian’s route and compare them with any long-distance Amtrak route: there are only 7 cities (Sudbury, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Kamloops, Chilliwack and Abbotsford) along the 2,775 miles between Toronto and Vancouver with more than 100k in their respectove metropolitan areas, of which only one (Edmonton) exceeds 1 million and another one (Winnipeg) exceeds 500,000, whereas two (Chilliwack and Abbotsford) are satelite cities to Vancouver and therefore not really trip generators in their own right. To make matters worse, Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver are all so far from each other that not even an hourly (!) train running at the average speed of Amtrak‘s LD trains would be a remotely credible alternative to taking the plane…

I highly doubt Amtrak would have even kept such a low-density route, let alone: operate it daily…

 

[caravanman]

My biggest personal issue with the Canadian is that it isn't really an option for me. It takes too long and runs too infrequently for it to really be a usable transportation system and comparable alternative to Amtrak at least for someone in my position that is still working and doesn't like flying as an option for returning - I wouldn't be able to take that much time at work to use it and actually spend time where I want to go on the west coast. Even if Amtrak is 10 hours late the Canadian still takes longer and even when Amtrak cut to tri weekly it was still running more than the Canadian (which was suspended altogether.) If one has the time and is looking for the first class land cruise experience, I have no doubt the service standards on the Canadian are probably superior and far more consistent, but at this point it seems it's like comparing a transportation provider to a scheduled tourist train service. At the end of the day for me while I do enjoy the train travel experience the priority is actually getting where I need to be as conveniently as possible without having to fly. The Canadian would just be too difficult to schedule around. Having said that I hope to ride it one day just for the experience even if I have to wait until retirement days.

I enjoyed my trip on the Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver in a single berth cabin. Food and service personnel were both very good.
Difficult to know how to respond to the the quoted post above, would we enjoy the Canadian if it travelled at French TGV speeds of 180+ MPH?
I think the Canadian does a difficult job well, attracting "land cruise" rail fans to offset some of the cost of providing normal train services over a sparsely populated route.
Maybe American folk need to have longer holiday entitlement, so they can enjoy the Canadian at their leisure, but that's another subject, of course! "Laissez les bons temps rouler"

 

[zephyr17]

My biggest personal issue with the Canadian is that it isn't really an option for me. It takes too long and runs too infrequently for it to really be a usable transportation system and comparable alternative to Amtrak at least for someone in my position that is still working and doesn't like flying as an option for returning - I wouldn't be able to take that much time at work to use it and actually spend time where I want to go on the west coast. Even if Amtrak is 10 hours late the Canadian still takes longer and even when Amtrak cut to tri weekly it was still running more than the Canadian (which was suspended altogether.) If one has the time and is looking for the first class land cruise experience, I have no doubt the service standards on the Canadian are probably superior and far more consistent, but at this point it seems it's like comparing a transportation provider to a scheduled tourist train service. At the end of the day for me while I do enjoy the train travel experience the priority is actually getting where I need to be as conveniently as possible without having to fly. The Canadian would just be too difficult to schedule around. Having said that I hope to ride it one day just for the experience even if I have to wait until retirement days.

Having ridden both tourist trains and classic streamliners, including Santa Fe's Super Chief, generally the experience onboard the Canadian is closer to a classic streamliner than a tourist train, though it does have some tourist train aspects in its lack of frequency and leisurely schedule. The dining car staffing in particular is what was normal back in the day on "name" trains. The quality of the food is equivalent, though the selection isn't as large as the Super Chief's was.

I am lucky in that I am in a geographical position to use it as transportation to the East Coast, most are not. In my case, I did ride it while I was still working, although then it usually meant flying back to fit it in. Now I take the train both ways, usually VIA there and Amtrak back. The time comparison's for me were four days, three nights on the Empire Builder/Lake Shore, leave Tuesday at around 5:30 pm from Everett, arrive New York at 6:30ish on Friday. However, I usually included an overnight layover in Chicago to protect my Chicago-New York sleeper, so that added a day and my arrival in New York would be Saturday around 6:30.
Taking the Canadian required an extra day, leaving Everett about 8:30 am on Monday on the Cascades, arriving Toronto on Friday and taking the Maple Leaf on Saturday, arriving New York around 10 pm.

I regarded the single extra day as well worth it to enjoy the superior equipment, service, and meals on the Canadian. When I working, I had to fly one way irrespective of whether I took Amtrak or VIA.

 

[JWM]

Via Rail, like Amtrak, is dependent on, in their case, CN for their long-distance trains. It is a shame the "Canadian" was shifted off its original routing on CP which, at least in the U.S., is much more supportive and cooperative with passenger rail. The CP route is more scenic. Also, in 1955, the "Canadian" took 66 hours and 40 minutes from Vancouver to Toronto. I took the train in 1967 at age seventeen and still fondly remember it. The dining car was superb and the spiral tunnels from the dome were incredible. How far we have fallen.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Via Rail, like Amtrak, is dependent on, in their case, CN for their long-distance trains.

I'm not totally blaming CN for this, but I've been on lots of Amtrak trains in the last year (Coast Starlight, Surfliner, San Joaquin, Silver Meteor, Pennsylvanian...) and none of them had the long delays like the Canadian where you sit on a siding waiting for 3 freights to pass.

Now I realize the CN is a very busy railroad, and they have limited sidings and lots of single track in an area where it would be difficult to double track. But to me, there is no comparison. You have to have lots more patience when riding VIA then on Amtrak.