Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[A Voice]

I am now wondering if they will manage to deliver a single Diner or Sleeper by the final delivery date.

The most recent rumor was a late August to September delivery, right? We're there.

Although, the order is already late enough at this point it is better to take the extra time to iron out any problems than rush cars out the door to meet an arbitrary deadline.

I'm also guessing CAF might not be interested in an add-on order for Viewliner II coaches and lounges?

 

[neroden]

If I were Amtrak, I'd ask CAF to hand over all the tooling and diagrams when they finish, so that Amtrak can hand all the ones which worked right to another builder. After noting all the ones which didn't work.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I don't know if this has been posted or not.

Per this website https://csanders429....cars-to-amtrak/

What I get out of that report, is that Amtrak has to pay more, for the cars being delivered later. About $7M more.

Just about the last sentence is the most troubling to me...

For its part, CAF contends that it will lose $41 million on the contract due to having to restructure a contract with a key supplier that is having financial difficulties.

Does that mean that CAF will be trying to cut corners in every way possible, to make up that $41M?

 

[Palmland]

Assuming CAF does complete the initial order, I wonder if Moorman would consider the add-on option to re-equip one or more of the western trains. It doesn't appear we'll see an order anytime soon for the aging Superliner cars. The obvious candidate would be the less scenic routes of the Texas Eagle and Sunset, perhaps modifying diners to serve as lounge car. And of course some of the cars would need to be designed as coaches, presumably an easy modification to a shell to add seats and restrooms. Perhaps Beech Grove could even do this.

This would also enable flexibility in mixing with the cars on the Crescent assignment. (remember the Washington to LA sleeper in early Amtrak days)? And, it would provide some additional Superliner cars from the TE/Sunset pool to supplement the remaining Superliner trains where demand is high or allow retirement if some of the cars were in poor condition.

It has to be more cost effective to keep the CAF production going (assuming they have an interest) than starting from scratch again - especially at the glacial speed it seems to take to complete a new car order.

 

[jis]

I am not sure if it is worthwhile if they will take another half a dozen years to do another 80 or so cars.

This is really frustrating when I contrast this with China or India who routinely add a couple of thousand cars each year as replacement and net add to their fleet.

 

[neroden]

If the problems ever get straightened out and the order ever comes close to completion, and Amtrak is even willing to deal with CAF at that point, and CAF still wants to be in the US market, and in the very unlikely event that Amtrak exercised an add-on order (which I hope they do), priorities for add-on orders should be, in this order:

-- more sleepers &/or bag/dorms for the eastern trains depending on market analysis

-- re-equipping the Capitol Limited with single-level cars to distribute its bilevels westward

-- lots of coaches (since the design can probably be done more quickly than cafe/obs cars)

-- cafe/obs cars as soon as they can be designed (since the Amfleet II cafes are beat to hell, and unattractive to passengers)

...and none of it will ever go west of Chicago or New Orleans. There is enough need for single-level cars east of Chicago that Amtrak will certainly not be assigning them west of Chicago where there are no high platforms.

 

[StriderGDM]

I think it would be great to take the options, but I highly suspect that won't happen. On the other hand, if Amtrak does want more cars, it doesn't make much sense to bring in yet another builder.

A lot depends on where CAF is now and how convinced Amtrak is if they could deliver on future orders in a timely manner. I suspect if the options are exercised, they could deliver in a more timely manner than the original order.

 

[neroden]

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.

Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.

Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.

 

[JohannFarley]

That would probably be the best idea

 

[Gulfwind2]

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.

Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.

Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.

Ah yes doesn't this mess make you want to go back to the days when the Milwaukee Road was homebuilding cars with ocean liner portholes for restroom windows and Brooks Stevens-inspired Skytop lounges?

Sadly we all understand that the harsh regulatory environment governing our unrealistic car safety standards will make the task of building new long distance cars in the next 10-15 years next to impossible. Perhaps a temporary solution may be converting the City of New Orleans to run single level if the Viewliner II order is ever fully satisfied with no catastrophic defects in the revenue cars or diners. The few additional Superliner cars which that would free up could give Beech Grove a chance to gradually take the entire Superliner fleet in for one final rebuild/update.

Making the current long distance fleet last as long as conceivably possible should be a major consideration for the future in light of the fact that we are very unlikely to see a Congress any time soon which is willing to appropriate funds for a large order to re-equip ANY long distance trains.

 

[battalion51]

The biggest issue in the short term in terms of the idea of converting a train to single level equipment is availability of coaches. Approximately 3 Superliner coaches = 4 Amfleet II coaches, and there isn't an extra dozen coaches laying around. Not to mention 2 Superliner sleepers = 3 Viewliner sleepers. If you're going to flip a train the CONO makes sense because it has three sets, and both terminals service long distance single level trains. Behind that is the Capitol Limited which also has three sets, but Ivy City doesn't have spare cars on hand in terms of sleepers or Amfleet II coaches.

Also, don't forget flipping a Superliner train to single level requires some capital because you need wheelchair lifts at all station stops, something many stations that exclusively service bi-level equipment lack (FTN-HMD on the CONO and RKV-COV, ALC on the Capitol).

 

[jis]

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.

Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.

Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.

I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy ...


Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Followed your link to the excellent article in the Columbus Dispatch and then to this comment below the story:

Kevin Kasson:

I researched Reich LLC on the internet, (Reich Bros, a US subsidiary of a German company won the auction) and I am sure they will get the Patents/Copyrights in the sale. They will then move production to their new, clean, environmentally safe, and Right-To-Work NC facility and pick up where Columbus Castings stopped. stopped. Reich LLC is even exporting to China from their NC facility.

So suppliers lost huge money, the city loses a payroll, and the employees lose all, but it looks like the railcar industry should get back to rolling.

With no competitor, prices may rise, but that's become the American way over the past 35 years or so.

 

[jis]

Except that the absence of competition is a myth. There are at least two other known combination of vendors who are quite capable of delivering trucks of the sort used by CAF and Rotem and others that use GSC trucks. Of course the trucks used by Siemens or Alstom for Avelias are a different matter altogether. They use a very different design and may only subcontract forged or cut parts to parts vendors. The truck assembly is apparently in house.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

With no competitor, prices may rise, but that's become the American way over the past 35 years or so.

Isn't that the $41M in extra costs to CAF, already mentioned?

 

[neroden]

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.

Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.

Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.

I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.

Oh thank goodness. I hope PennFab really is capable, because it looks like they're going to be a sole supplier. *Again*. So if anything goes wrong with them, we're back to the same mess.

 

[jis]

Actually there are several forging, cutting and finishing vendors around. it is just that n one are as big as Columbus was. PennFab just happens to be the one that SEPTA is using. There was another outfit that was in the original running for the contract. That outfit is still around and seems to be doing fine even though they did not get the original contract.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.

Oh thank goodness. I hope PennFab really is capable, because it looks like they're going to be a sole supplier. *Again*. So if anything goes wrong with them, we're back to the same mess.

Did PennFab buy the Columbus Castings patents, at the bankruptcy auction?

 

[jis]

Did PennFab buy the Columbus Castings patents, at the bankruptcy auction?

No.

AFAIK there are no patents involved in cutting some steel to the specifications provided by someone else using standard technologies.

I wonder is there is any enforceable IPR that applies to GSC trucks. They have surely been around for more than 20 years. They are not cutting edge technology. Patents expire both with passage of time and due to non-payment of maintenance fees. Any applicable ones have probably expired long back.

 

[PRR 60]

PennFab is a conventional steel fabricator. They cut and fabricate items from steel plate and rolled beams for all kinds of needs - buildings, bridges, even electric transmission structures. One of their strengths is short lead time in emergencies. When I needed something in a hurry, as long as they could get the raw material (and I would work with them on that), they could gear up and get it out the door really fast.

In this case, they fabricated the new equalizer beams from high strength steel plate. They took a large, thick plate, then plasma cut beams from that plate. When time is of the essence, this is the fastest way to go.

For a conventional rail car project, using cut plate for equalizer beams might not be economic. No matter how cleverly you nest the cut lines of multiple beams on the large plate, there is a lot of waste. Wasting heavy, thick, expensive steel is costly. Taking the time to make molds and cast the beams eliminates the wasted material, but that is all but impossible when you need the parts yesterday. So, while PennFab was able to come in and do this job when time, not cost, was the driver, it is unlikely they would be competitive in a conventional railcar production job.

 

[jis]

Bill, what was the other company that had qualified for the casting job for SEPTA but was not selected in the original contract? They are still around, right?

 

[PRR 60]

Bill, what was the other company that had qualified for the casting job for SEPTA but was not selected in the original contract? They are still around, right?

Canton Drop Forge. Yes, they are in business.

 

[Maglev]

Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line? Last I heard, the Lake Shore Limited had lost its diner.

 

[StriderGDM]

If anyone knows the answer to that question, they're not talking.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line?

Not until at least another 137 pages.