Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[JohannFarley]

Honestly it's probably as simple as organization

 

[Slayer Essence]

I can live with the delays as long as there is progress and these cars are coming. However, I'm more concerned with quality. How well are these cars going to hold up before they need replacement?

 

[Blackwolf]

I'm not so sure I would lump Nippon-Sharyo into the same lot as CAF. N-S ran into a significant design flaw that was unfortunately disastrous to the production timeline, however there have been no "smoke and mirrors" excuses or cold silence leaving the lot of us wondering just what the heck is happening. In fact, redesigning the failed car and getting the production line up and running at full-tilt while simultaneously working on multiple other contract orders in the same facility for other customers speaks to a very impressive organization to me. Everyone (and every company) has their flub from time to time. I do recall that when N-S was awarded the bi-level order, there was considerable excitement about the efficient and punctual Japanese company being chosen. It is annoying that it happened, but better it occur in initial testing than when 130 cars have been built and are languishing around at the factory for endless months with a potential massive defect(s) that threatens them ever seeing a revenue passenger (I'm looking at you CAF.)

If Siemens ran into a road-block with the cars for Brightline as significant as N-S did with the bi-levels, the result may well be just as substantial. They've just not designed and built a ground-up vehicle for the American market, but instead have only modified existing and proven products to meet regulations.

Counter this all with CAF, who has been anything but transparent and won't release even the slightest bit of information either in official documents or casual updates. If the VL-II order was 100% private capital being spent by a company, I would be no less frustrated with all the delays but not have a leg to stand on in terms of right to progress reports on the project. However, this is funded by public money, and as such, I do have a right to know if those funds are being expended correctly and the product is made on time and correctly. In fact, I'm of the belief that the bid should have required full disclosure of information updates on the project in regular scheduled reports. Amtrak itself is to be responsible just as fully as CAF, and this order is not only a threat to the planned expansion but could be a serious liability for long-distance passenger rail in the coming months and years. And now, we're bringing up the "if" word in reference to the revenue passenger-carrying portion of this order when speaking of their delivery. As in, "if" they ever see revenue service. Should that transpire, what you get to eat in the diner is the least of our worries; there may be no railroad to ride on beyond regional commuter service in very short order. Dangerous and infuriating.

 

[PVD]

A simple "this is what our problems are, and here is what specific steps are being undertaken to correct them, and this is the realistic timeline" would make a lot of folks happy. Fix problems before fixing blame.

 

[jis]

A simple "this is what our problems are, and here is what specific steps are being undertaken to correct them, and this is the realistic timeline" would make a lot of folks happy. Fix problems before fixing blame.

It would also be nice if we knew somehow what role Amtrak played in either causing or helping mitigate the issues.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Airplane manufacturers have been very good at studying the lessons in ergonomics offered by the wide bodies and have drastically improved the interiors of single aisle aircraft also. Other than seating arrangements (on almost all planes) the improvements have been substantial.

That is certainly true. Be it Boeing or Airbus, when their show off their newest aircraft, the ergonomics is nothing less than the state of the air. Wide reclining leather seats, personal LCD entertainment displays, rotating mood lighting, piano lounges, bedroom suites, lap pools , and so on.

However, the airlines themselves then "customize" the aircraft. All that seems to disappear, and the thinnest, narrowest, coach seats are packed in as tightly they can be legally put. I am not sure that this would be what I would want to see, in any new Amtrak coach cars.

 

[jis]

However, the airlines themselves then "customize" the aircraft. All that seems to disappear, and the thinnest, narrowest, coach seats are packed in as tightly they can be legally put. I am not sure that this would be what I would want to see, in any new Amtrak coach cars.

Actually it is quite inaccurate to say all of that disappear. Yes they do disappear in steerage. But many of them do stay around up front, sometimes in spectacular ways. The First Class Suites and the lounge area, specially on the A380s and even on some 77Ws are quite phenomenal. Even the Business Class Lie Flat seat cabins are a very nice hard product, and many airlines do a superb job with the soft product that they lay on it.

And none of that comes cheap for the customers either. But there is extremely significant willingness to pay from adequate number of people to sustain such on specific routes. There are many routes today that simply do not support financially and there fore do not have any First Class Service anymore. The highest class is Business Class. That is financial reality. If your customer does not have the wherewithal to pay the actual price for the luxury one just scales luxury down to where there is willingness to pay. Some routes can support only Coach and even very little BC, so be it.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

CAF ... is funded by public money, and as such, I do have a right to know if those funds are being expended correctly and the product is made on time and correctly. In fact, I'm of the belief that the bid should have required full disclosure of information updates on the project in regular scheduled reports. Amtrak itself is to be responsible just as fully as CAF, and this order is not only a threat to the planned expansion but could be a serious liability for long-distance passenger rail in the coming months and years. And now, we're bringing up the "if" word in reference to the revenue passenger-carrying portion of this order when speaking of their delivery. As in, "if" they ever see revenue service. Should that transpire, what you get to eat in the diner is the least of our worries; there may be no railroad to ride on beyond regional commuter service in very short order. Dangerous and infuriating.

My understanding is that Nippon Sharyo failed the minimum crash-worthiness test. That sort of thing certainly should be a matter of public record:

Minimum safety regulations are,

check one,

__ met,

__ NOT met.

CAF's shortcomings instead were described (in Inspector General's report iirc) as dozens of small failures, but none as affecting safety.

CAF did get around to mentioning major trouble with a supplier, one that went bankrupt, and its empty facility has been pictured on these blogs.

I lean to the view that many or most of CAF's problems were not of their causing, ranging from labor force inadequacy to Amtrak change orders and other interference. The fact that CAF and Amtrak have so successfully kept these secrets suggests that Amtrak may have a good bit of responsibility, and that nonetheless both parties would be willing to work together again soon.

I'm also taking great cheer to see posts suggesting that the lateness of the Viewliner II diners and sleepers means they might never ride the rails! In the stock market, such panic would surely signal the end of a bear market, with a turnaround soon to come.

 

[neroden]

The biggest problem was that CAF, being from Spain, did not know various things a local company would have known: that (a) they couldn't hire good pre-trained welders easily in Elmira, (b) Columbus Castings was in financially dangerous shape, etc. Local knowledge would have helped a lot. OR construction of the vehicles in Spain, that would have solved the problem too. (Damn Buy America.)

 

[PVD]

Plenty of foreign companies conduct business in the US quite successfully. You hire people who know the conditions and markets in which you are competing. If you don't do that you fail, regardless of where your headquarters is located. Buy American compliance is not a valid excuse for poor supply chain and logistics management, If Siemens and Alstom and Bombardier and others can manage it, CAF should have been able to deal with it also. You need to know what you are agreeing to, and if you can't meet the terms of a deal and you sign it anyway, you deserve what you get.

 

[neroden]

Bombardier isn't managing it -- look up their Mexican outsourcing disaster -- and we'll see about Alstom. :sigh: Siemens seems to know what they're doing.

Don't ask me why the railroad passenger car manufacturing industry is particularly bad at this.

 

[west point]

You would think that since CAF has / is doing other work in the USA they would have known that there are unique problems building rail cars in the USA ?

 

[PVD]

What still puzzles me is the variability in performance from project to project. Like the struggles Kawasaki had with WMATA, that were not there in prior jobs. NS managed other builds, the current consortium project hasn't gone well. I understand that there are differences from batch to batch, but project management procedures shouldn't fail like that. In comment on building overseas, keep in mind that because the US market cars would need to be FRA compliant (in most cases) they would not be off the shelf designs that the factories were already executing. I'm not sure the results would be any better.

 

[DevalDragon]

Easy to explain - there is not enough volume to maintain proficiency By the time they get good at making a passenger car the contract ends and everything is disbanded. By the time the next contract comes around, they have to learn everything all over again.

The Viewliner I sleepers are a perfect example of this.

Bombardier isn't managing it -- look up their Mexican outsourcing disaster -- and we'll see about Alstom. :sigh: Siemens seems to know what they're doing.

Don't ask me why the railroad passenger car manufacturing industry is particularly bad at this.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Easy to explain - there is not enough volume to maintain proficiency By the time they get good at making a passenger car, the contract ends and everything is disbanded. By the time the next contract comes around, they have to learn everything all over again.

Another example of how "The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak".

If the next order for single-level coaches were to be for 1,200 and not for a mere 600 or so, then almost all the new equipment would be built during a long, multi-year period of proficiency.

Of course, we'd need a much larger system, with more trains, more routes, more frequencies, to make good use of twice the number of cars. But that also would be a good thing in many other ways.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Of course, we'd need a much larger system, with more trains, more routes, more frequencies, to make good use of twice the number of cars. But that also would be a good thing in many other ways.

Oh my god, that sounds horrible!

 

[CraigDK]

Any new rumors facts on when we might see some deliveries? If my memory is accurate (maybe it was in the OIG report) they where expecting to begin delivering dinners sometime by the end of the month (although I wasn't expecting them to make that date).

 

[jis]

There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and there was a pulse discernible there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.

 

[VT Hokie]

Out of sight, out of mind? Maybe Amtrak is hoping that eventually people forget about them like they forgot about the three RTL-III Turboliner sets that are still sitting in Bear, DE.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

With the Viewliner Diners nowhere to be seen, maybe we'll start talking about refurbishing some Heritage diners to support alternative food and beverage service models... h34r:

 

[Ryan]

 

[Thirdrail7]

There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and there was a pulse discernible there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.

h34r: h34r:

 

[Ryan]

I'm heading out of the country, so I'm sure they'll be moving week after next.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Of course we have a pulse.

New fiscal year.

Any other questions?

 

[jis]

There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and there was a pulse discernible there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.

h34r: h34r:

Looks like that heart needs a few stents at least if not a CABG or two