Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[WoodyinNYC]

In an Aug 11 thread at TrainOrders Amtrak LSA 'Boiling Man' ( a frequent poster there) shared gossip from someone he usually trusts to the effect that the diner order will be cancelled--as a way to deal w Congress' demand to cut F&B and in light of the Silver experience. He says it may be off base but ... just in case...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3815460,page=1

Seems quite early in the Silver Star experiment to be divining the results. And I'd like to see an actual experiment with an additional sleeper per diner over the current count, on at least one route, to see if the batter ratio would spread the diner costs over enuff additional passengers to get to break-even.

But maybe Amtrak has crunched their numbers over and over again and just can't make them work. Perhaps Amtrak has decided to end diner service on the Eastern LD trains. Boardman's promise to Mica to end food & beverage losses got written into law, after all.

Now following these gloomy discussions, I'm starting to wonder. If Amtrak cancels all or part of the diner order, how much will it cost to modify a not-quite-finished diner into a sleeper? Or some other kind of food service car?

I'm assuming that another 25 sleepers (or with some number of bag/dorms, cafe cars, etc), above and beyond the 25 sleepers remaining in this order, would be filled, sans diners.

 

[jis]

Yes indeed, the savings are huge. Indeed in rest of the world very often trains are assigned a single loco.

In India for example, almost everything, including very prestigious trains run with single locos and upto 24 cars (indian cars are somewhat shorter - 75', and somewhat lighter), and they generally seem to operate pretty reliably on the whole. However, they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by. But then again, because there is a huge competition among loco sheds about the quality of the locos that they own, it is a matter of shame when a loco from a particular shed fails in service. On IR the owning loco shed is very clearly identified on each loco either with a distinctive livery or where that is not allowed (e.g. the WAP 5 and 6 class electrics) the loco shed name appears emblazoned on the front of the locomotive.

But the bottom line is, that most of the passenger service runs using single loco for each train. There are only a few exceptions here and there.

This is key though, "........they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by...." That simply doesn't exist here in the USA, outside of just a few corridors. I mean, even in Michigan, it could take hours to get a replacement loco.

Yeah. That's why I mentioned it. There are two factors working against Amtrak here.... one is the consistent underfunding which possibly leads to less than ideal level of maintenance leading to higher than is possible under the best circumstances, failure rates, and the second is lack of a dense network and consequent lack of availability of ready replacements should a failure occur en route. Of course the intense competition between loco sheds (and associated pride in performance) as occurs in India is also not feasible with a non-dense network. Instead allegedly here each maintenance center simply pushes things off to the other center hoping that nothing bad happens in between.

BTW, at the present time I think the business about canceling the Diners is just an idle rumor with little basis in any underlying fact. But I am sure we will know for sure with the passage of time, won't we?

 

[AmtrakLKL]

Look deeper, AmtrakLKL. h34r:

How about I just look at today. 91 and 92 both running with a single motor. How about that?!

 

[neroden]

In an Aug 11 thread at TrainOrders Amtrak LSA 'Boiling Man' ( a frequent poster there) shared gossip from someone he usually trusts to the effect that the diner order will be cancelled--as a way to deal w Congress' demand to cut F&B and in light of the Silver experience. He says it may be off base but ... just in case...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3815460,page=1

Seems quite early in the Silver Star experiment to be divining the results.

Though so far the results are very clearly "financial disaster".

And I'd like to see an actual experiment with an additional sleeper per diner over the current count, on at least one route, to see if the batter ratio would spread the diner costs over enuff additional passengers to get to break-even.

Yep. My calculations say that they would get to break-even on the Meteor and the LSL, with some minor changes in service patterns (gotta serve more hours per day on the LSL, for example). A daily Cardinal could come close enough, though a non-daily train is hopeless. I don't see a way to do it on the Crescent unless demand can be added south of Atlanta.

But maybe Amtrak has crunched their numbers over and over again and just can't make them work.

I doubt that, given Amtrak's proven inability to crunch numbers. :sigh:

Perhaps Amtrak has decided to end diner service on the Eastern LD trains. Boardman's promise to Mica to end food & beverage losses got written into law, after all.

If so, completely idiotic. Brain-damaged. They did it before and lost 13% of their ridership; they're already losing more than that on the Star... and they don't have anything approximating suitable cafe service to substitute. *They would have to order new cafe cars for immediate delivery*.

Now following these gloomy discussions, I'm starting to wonder. If Amtrak cancels all or part of the diner order, how much will it cost to modify a not-quite-finished diner into a sleeper? Or some other kind of food service car?

They'd have to be replaced with revised cafe cars, with *much, much more food storage space* and, frankly, a grill. I don't know how long the design work would take. A "cafe-grill" design is the minimum plausible design to supply the huge loads of passengers on the Lake Shore Limited.

 

[Amtrak172]

I read on 4RR that Amtrak may actually be canceling the order of the diners and the other cars. Is this true?

 

[jis]

I read on 4RR that Amtrak may actually be canceling the order of the diners and the other cars. Is this true?

Afterall you did read it on the internet so it must be true, no?

Well as far as we know it is just a creative rumor at present. Only time will tell whether it is true or not. but my guess at present is that it is not true..

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I could never believe that even if Amtrak's needs changed, they would cancel the diners. It isn't like Congress would let Amtrak divert that money to something else on their own volition. Amtrak would simply accept Congress's "gift" of the diners, and park them somewhere.

 

[jis]

I could never believe that even if Amtrak's needs changed, they would cancel the diners. It isn't like Congress would let Amtrak divert that money to something else on their own volition. Amtrak would simply accept Congress's "gift" of the diners, and park them somewhere.

Since Congress never appropriated any money specifically for this order, I don't think they have much of a say in this matter.

 

[StriderGDM]

Until I hear it from a more reliable source, I'm highly disinclined to believe this. The only way it would work is if

a) they removed diners from existing trains

b) upgraded the trucks on existing sleepers to 125mph operation.

One of the smaller, but still important goals, of the Viewliner II order was to permit LD trains to run at the same speed as regionals on the NEC. This makes scheduling and planning a lot easier.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Since Congress never appropriated any money specifically for this order, I don't think they have much of a say in this matter.

Oh, I thought this was part of some recession stimulus bill.

 

[keelhauled]

I think they were financed by an RRIF loan. Or maybe that was the ACS-64s. In any case it wasn't s specific appropriation.

 

[jis]

AFAIR, the ACS-64 order is based on an RRIF loan, while the VL II order is entirely internally financed from revenue growth.

It is the midwest bi-level and locomotive orders thata re paid for out of ARRA or HSIPR or som e such. I am sure afigg can fill in the gory details on which of those is funded from where.

Congress has strongly suggested to Amtrak that any rolling stock order henceforth should be financed through RRIF or market loans. Hence the plan to use RRIF for Acela IIs.

 

[R30A]

The 4rr website tends to be universally incorrect when it comes to anything besides which locomotives are where. (And I will say that it does a VERY good job of that. Just don't expect much else out of it.)

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

The Empire Builder arrived in Chicago on Wednesday and Thursday with only a single new Viewliner 2 baggage car in the consist coupled right behind the locomotives. The Wednesday train also had a former CB&Q Budd dome observation car on the rear end. I didn't see Friday's train.

 

[Agent]

AMTK 61002 was on the end of Amtrak #5(20) when it arrived in Emeryville, California on Saturday. It wasn't on the Zephyr when it left Chicago. I believe this is the car that was in Denver for a while.

 

[andersone]

so much for the train window fans

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

so much for the train window fans

Actually a single level car at the end of a Superliner does not totally block the railfan window; it still offers an excellent view, more like looking out of the back of a traditional Dome Car.

 

[PerRock]

so much for the train window fans

Actually a single level car at the end of a Superliner does not totally block the railfan window; it still offers an excellent view, more like looking out of the back of a traditional Dome Car.

... unless the end car is a Transition Sleeper ;P

peter

 

[46Dover]

They better not cancel the Diners. And the other thing I'm looking at is why is Amtrak ordering extra Sleepers when the only thing they'll be used for is Summertime work and all the long distance trains are (for lack of a better term) *******ized in the wintertime.

I really want all this to work, don't get me wrong....

 

[user 1215]

The 4rr website tends to be universally incorrect when it comes to anything besides which locomotives are where. (And I will say that it does a VERY good job of that. Just don't expect much else out of it.)

If you go back one page, you'll see on post #2167 of this thread that the rumor originated from an LSA on Train Orders.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The rumor is just that, a rumor, canceling the order would cost Amtrak more at this point than accepting cars.

as a lot of car shells are completed and fitting out is in progress, canceling the contract would be financially devastating, and could cost more than actual order. just ask Wisconsin and the Talgo fiasco.

but so far, no one at Amtrak or CAF is panicking other than railbuffs.

 

[west point]

46Dover. There is a misconception about not just sleepers but all cars and locos. Study the monthly performance reports You will find that heavy overhauls on much fewer cars happen during high traffic times. At low traffic times lighter repairs are spread over many more cars. Heavy overhauls require many more craftsmen per car. That way the most cars can be assigned to high traffic times.

Another item is no one can really predict the ultimate sleeper demand. Even the eastern step child Cardinal is selling out a second sleeper that was not expected from many including this poster.

As well it could be that Amtrak will change the Capitol to single level cars to free up superliners for western trains. That could swallow up 6 sleepers.

 

[neroden]

Single-level sleepers make money. More than the coaches on the LSL, a bit less on the Cardinal, less than the coaches on the Silvers and Crescent (the coaches on the LSL probably don't turn over more than once per trip, the coaches on the Cardinal probably more often, and the coaches on the Silvers & Crescent probably turn over the most often). Anyway, the sleepers are catering to a different audience than the coaches (they're not substitutes, they're complements). Nobody's really sure how high demand for them is. I can't imagine that Amtrak would ever cancel that order.

The dining car situation is more worrisome, because it's been hard for Amtrak to pin down how much it increases revenue by. I personally don't think that cafe cars are sufficient to maintain high-ticket-price ridership on routes as long as the LSL, Cardinal, Silvers, or Crescent. But Amtrak has made Really Stupid Decisions with food service in the past, so... who knows.

 

[tricia]

Now that we're at page 110 of this thread.... Would someone who's been following this closely care to state a current ETA (or range of likely delivery times) for the new Viewliner diners and sleepers?

 

[jis]

Unless someone like Thirdrail has some inside info, I suspect that we remain as clueless as ever.