Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[cocojacoby]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.

This really makes no sense.

 

[Ziv]

I don't know. I look at the handicapped parking spaces in my town and the vast majority of them are not in use. Is it possible that Amtrak is in a similar position in which they may have 3 handicapped accessible rooms but usually only have one, or none, occupied by a person in a chair? That having been said, even if the parking lot handicapped spaces are generally not in use, there will always be a situation where there aren't enough of them. It may not happen often, but it will happen. And that goes for handicapped rooms vs. tables available for people in a wheelchair on the diner. I guess the diner staff could take seat reservations for 3 people in chairs one after the other though. Can they do 3 seatings or only 2? Or ask them to share the accessible table with both their spouses... Nah...

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.

This really makes no sense.

 

[Ryan]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.
This really makes no sense.

They do offer room service to all.

This gives an additional opportunity for someone with mobility issues a chance to eat in the diner.

How is that a bad thing? Whinging about "fairness" doesn't make any sense.

 

[PVD]

They need the vestibule regardless of the H room.

 

[PVD]

You can't have an aisle wide enough for standard wheelchair access from adjoining sleepers. It is a step up from the situation in a Superliner. Mobility limitations means more than wheelchairs

 

[VT Hokie]

Some good floorplan renderings here:

https://www.coroflot.com/jmichel/AMTRAK-CAF-VIEWLINER-2-INTERIORS

 

[cpotisch]

Just watched this youtube video and it gives a good look at the new Viewliner dinner (2:50 - 4:28). Since it looks like the crew is as usual taking up two tables for setup and their own personal belongings (losing 8 seats) and the huge ADA area now takes up 6 more, the traditional 48 seat diner is now reduced to 34 seats!

No wonder Amtrak is losing money on their food service. This train often has 5 coaches and 3 sleepers full of hungry captive people. This is a setup for failure.

You are 100% correct. There is a table at the end of the car closest to the sleepers with a large area for a wheelchair to pull up on one side, and the regular bench on the other side.

 

[cpotisch]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

 

[west point]

Had wheel chair friend who was determined to ride a train. After much discussion came to conclusion that she would rent a wheel chair that had only 24" side to side. Said it worked great and was happy to only have to pay $25.00 to rent the chair.

 

[neroden]

I think my girlfriend's wheelchair is about 24" wide. I should measure.

 

[Ryan]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.

Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?

 

[cpotisch]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.

Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?

They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.

 

[Ryan]

I'm not going to debate the unknowable thought process behind the design with you. Believe what you wish.

My statement concerned how the trains are made up, and remains factually correct.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.
Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?

They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.

Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.

 

[cpotisch]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?

They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.

Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.

Where did I say that I don’t support the ADA or providing disabled passengers with appropriate accommodation. Where did I say that?

 

[PVD]

Ryan is making sense. The H room needs to be where it is so you can get someone on the car and into the room, matter which direction it faces. Only the first VL needs to be pointed at the diner, because it needs the vestibule. Meals brought to your seat or to your room is offered. Certain LD trains will allow transfer to the lounge car at certain stops for passengers with wheeled mobility devices. This seems to satisfy the present requirement.

 

[cpotisch]

Only the first VL needs to be pointed at the diner, because it needs the vestibule.

Actually, all the VLs have to be pointed at the diner, because each sleeper only has one vestibule and has to put its vestibule next to the car in front of it.

 

[PVD]

What would happen if it was end to end as long as a vestibule pointed to the diner ?

 

[jis]

What would happen if it was end to end as long as a vestibule pointed to the diner ?

Because the Diner does not have egress at least one vestibule has to be adjacent to the Diner. Other than that I don’t think there is any mandatory requirements. Indeed I have seen mixed orientation Viewliners in a consist.

 

[PVD]

Thanks. that is exactly my point. As long as the adjacent car provides a vestibule, the others don't matter. The Boston section sleeper of the LSL when the train splits certainly doesn't abut the other VL sleepers

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.

Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?

They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.

Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.

Where did I say that I don’t support the ADA or providing disabled passengers with appropriate accommodation. Where did I say that?

By saying this:

"They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them."

Did it occur to you that they did it so that someone in the H room could easily access the dining car and an accessible table, not because the rooms/tables didn't "fit" anywhere else? I imagine ADA had something to do with this.

 

[PVD]

(2) Single-level dining and lounge cars shall have at least one connecting doorway complying with §38.113(a)(2) of this part connected to a car accessible to persons using wheelchairs or mobility aids, and at least one space complying with §§38.125(d) (2) and (3) of this part, to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair, and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(3) Bi-level dining cars shall comply with §§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121 of this part.

(4) Bi-level lounge cars shall have doors on the lower level, on each side of the car from which passengers board, complying with §38.113, a restroom complying with §38.123, and at least one space complying with §38.125(d) (2) and (3) to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(5) Restrooms, complying with §38.123 shall be provided in single-level rail passenger coaches and food services cars adjacent to the accessible seating locations required by paragraph (d) of this section. Accessible restrooms are required in dining and lounge cars only if restrooms are provided for other passengers.

 

[PVD]

If the sleeper wasn't there, it (the diner) would still be required to have the vestibule. The accessible space must be in a spot where a wheelchair can access it, but nothing requires it to be a sleeper and its H room. In practical terms though diners are not in use on any trains without sleepers, and the diners are either primarily or exclusively for the use of the sleeper passengers so it is the most reasonable setup. H room in the Boston section of the LSL when it runs normally will almost definitely not get to the wheelchair position in the diner with a standard width. chair or walker.

 

[cocojacoby]

(2) Single-level dining and lounge cars shall have at least one connecting doorway complying with §38.113(a)(2) of this part connected to a car accessible to persons using wheelchairs or mobility aids, and at least one space complying with §§38.125(d) (2) and (3) of this part, to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair, and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(3) Bi-level dining cars shall comply with §§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121 of this part.

(4) Bi-level lounge cars shall have doors on the lower level, on each side of the car from which passengers board, complying with §38.113, a restroom complying with §38.123, and at least one space complying with §38.125(d) (2) and (3) to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(5) Restrooms, complying with §38.123 shall be provided in single-level rail passenger coaches and food services cars adjacent to the accessible seating locations required by paragraph (d) of this section. Accessible restrooms are required in dining and lounge cars only if restrooms are provided for other passengers.

So how does a Superliner Bi-level dining car (#3) comply with this?

Obviously the Pacific Parlor Cars did not comply. Wonder if that was part of their demise.

Interestingly, it seems like the people who wrote the regulations realized that traditional dining in a railroad dining car was an integral part of train travel. Too bad Amtrak doesn't feel that way.

 

[Ryan]

You have to go and look what "§§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121" each say:

(2) Doorways at ends of cars connecting two adjacent cars, to the maximum extent practicable in accordance with regulations issued under the Federal Railroad Safety Act of 1970 ( 49 CFR parts 229 and 231), shall have a clear opening width of 32 inches to permit wheelchair and mobility aid users to enter into a single-level dining car, if available.

(b) Where provided, handrails and stanchions shall be sufficient to permit safe boarding, on-board circulation, seating and standing assistance, and alighting by persons with disabilities.

(a) Floor surfaces on aisles, step treads and areas where wheelchair and mobility aid users are to be accommodated shall be slip-resistant.

Each car shall be equipped with a public address system permitting transportation system personnel, or recorded or digitized human speech messages, to announce stations and provide other passenger information. Alternative systems or devices which provide equivalent access are also permitted.

None of those things seem like they are unobtainable for a Superliner to me. I've not taken a measuring tape to the doorways, though.

Edit: Link to the relevant section of code if you wish to review it further: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/38.111