Viewliner order awarded to CAF USA

[Chris J.]

The only true non-revenue things in a consist are a locomotive (obviously a necessity), baggage car, and dorm car. The Diners typically do not make much money since their primary customer is sleeping car passengers who have their meals included. There is a small amount of revenue produced by sales of alcohol and sales to coach passengers. Overall I would argue that the lounge produces more revenue and lower direct expenses since it only takes one man to work it, more hours available to make sales, and everyone has to pay regardless of class of service. Granted the lounges are probably losing money overall, but its a necessity to remain competitive in the marketplace.

They probably make a tiny bit of revenue on the bag cars from people paying for extra luggage over their 3-bag limit and with Amtrak Express Shipping.

 

[wrjensen]

From what I heard: The cars a slated to come out in this order, Baggage, Sleeper, Bag/Dorm. And very subject to change.

It based on design time and lead time for subassembly. It does not mean that all of one design will come out before the next, but the order the are released. If this schedule holds up the first cars (baggage) will go out west "to get some miles on them" also subject to change.

 

[spacecadet]

Are the Viewliners really as old as or older than the Amfleets? When are they gonna replace those? I'm all for a uniform-looking, consistent consist.

Me too, but I think this is one of those ideas that's considered obsolete these days, necessary for high speed rail but not really cost-effective at the speeds Amtrak's LD trains operate at. It was always sort of a marketing gimmick, having these matched consist streamlined trains, it wasn't for any real economic reason. The amount of money saved on fuel with the full streamlining is probably lost several times over in the additional time and energy required to wye entire trains and keep all the equipment in order (including having enough extra cars and locos of that same design at various points for protection). Plus you basically have to order full train sets all the time, which limits flexibility. (This is how most of the matched consists in the old days came to be; they were ordered in sets.)

I think the closest you're gonna get to a matched consist on an Amtrak LD train is one of the Superliners that runs without a dedicated baggage car. The loco still sticks out, but I don't mind that much anymore - that was the way things always were before the streamliner age (and still are in most other countries running low-speed trains).

Eastern trains are probably going to be a hodge podge of car types forever, given that the Amfleet cars still have probably 20 years of life left in them (and by then, who knows what Amtrak will look like?). At least the new Viewliners will cut the number of different types down to two, though, so it'll be a little classier looking. It's going to be sad seeing those heritage cars finally gone, though - I've got a lot of great memories on those old trains. I might have to take a trip somewhere before the final retirement just to have one last experience in a heritage diner.

 

[MattW]

I wouldn't say it's obsolete, and wouldn't say you have to wye a matched consist like you're describing, nor should you have to order a full trainset. I could be wrong seeing as how I'm just a young computer science railfan, but if you specify a standard shape (which I'm afraid Amtrak hasn't this go-round), and build to that standard, things should still match up. In my field of computers, it's the exact same reason why an Asus ATX motherboard will work with a case made by Alienware with the ATX form factor, or why a Sandisk USB stick will work with an HP computer. As for keeping the consist matched, for the upcoming Viewliner II, it seems like it'd be the same they're doing now, having to keep the vestibules all facing one direction (till they meet the diner of course to give it two vestibules).

As for the locomotives, yea, you're right, but at the same time, I don't care as much about how they blend with the train until you get up above 79mph at which point the sometimes inconvenient laws of aerodynamics begin to have a greater effect, but beggars can't be choosers, you can either run flat-front dual-ended cabs like the AEM-7s and get hit with drag right up front, or you can run slope-nosed dual-ended cabs like the HHP-8 and ALP46 and get hit with the drag just behind the locomotive, or you can run single-ended cabs with flat-backs and and solve both problems, but lose the operational flexibility of the dual-ended cabs unless you put a power car or matching cab car at the other end such as Acela.

I don't think (hope) Eastern trains will (won't) remain the hodge podge for much longer. I'm holding out hope that after/part way through this initial order of 130, Amtrak will begin seriously looking at Viewliner coaches and lounges and relegating the Amfleets to either commuter startups looking for cheap well-tested cars, or short-run corridor "startups" like a Heartland Flyer frequency expansion, or Illinois/Michigan service frequency expansions until true corridor cars begin rolling out of the factories.

 

[spacecadet]

I wouldn't say it's obsolete, and wouldn't say you have to wye a matched consist like you're describing, nor should you have to order a full trainset. I could be wrong seeing as how I'm just a young computer science railfan, but if you specify a standard shape (which I'm afraid Amtrak hasn't this go-round), and build to that standard, things should still match up.

Well yes, if you *always* order the same stuff. The problem is Amtrak's orders are (historically) about 20 years apart, and in that time a lot of stuff changes - customer tastes, safety regulations, economic concerns, builder availability, technology, etc.

Also, there aren't a lot of car builders left in the world, so it's not always the most cost-effective to give someone a custom design that matches stuff you already have. That's why the Amfleet and Superliners look the way they do; in the former case, Budd basically just took the shell of their Metroliner and said "here, take it or leave it" and Amtrak took it. They just weren't building the old straight-sided passenger cars anymore. The Superliners were only a little more loosely based on the design of the SF hi-level cars. These were designs that came from the builders, not Amtrak.

Amtrak actually did experiment with trying to make Amfleet sleeping cars and I think even full dining cars, but it didn't work for various reasons. But they wanted to have a matched fleet; the cars just weren't suitable. So they went back to the drawing board for the Viewliners.

By the time they do replace the Amfleet cars, they may or may not even be buying low-speed LD equipment anymore. They may not be running LD trains at all. They may have new requirements for various reasons. There may be a new design somewhere else in the world that's clearly superior to the Viewliner and that they can incorporate elements from. Or there may not be a builder that can even build a custom design like that. I also think it's probably not that likely that the basic Viewliner design will withstand what by then will be about 40 years worth of use without the need for some basic design modifications.

We still haven't even seen these new Viewliners; we don't know if they'll look exactly the same. What I've read just suggests they're "basically" the same (I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like that). But maybe they won't have fluted sides, or maybe the edges will be rounded off, I mean I don't think they're using the exact same blueprints.

The really famous old streamliners really were bought in full sets, usually with an extra set or two for protection. Lesser streamliners used more "off the shelf" cars but they were purchased with such regularity that the basic design didn't change much from car to car, even if they were purchased at different times. But Amtrak just doesn't buy often enough for that to really be the case.

In my field of computers, it's the exact same reason why an Asus ATX motherboard will work with a case made by Alienware with the ATX form factor, or why a Sandisk USB stick will work with an HP computer.

Well there are standards, I mean an Amfleet car matches up with a Viewliner in the same way an Asus motherboard will fit into an Alienware case. They just don't look the same, is all.

I don't think (hope) Eastern trains will (won't) remain the hodge podge for much longer. I'm holding out hope that after/part way through this initial order of 130, Amtrak will begin seriously looking at Viewliner coaches and lounges

There's just no money. They're sort of ramming this order through as it is. I personally think this might end up being Amtrak's last-ever LD car order. They'll stretch the Amfleet cars another 30 years (really beyond their lifespan, but they've done that with the heritage stuff now), and by then the whole system will just seem so ridiculously antiquated that it'll hopefully be replaced by HSR... though probably not with a fully national network.

 

[battalion51]

As excited as I am for the new order I do have to say some of the hodgepodgeness is actually kind of neat if you think about it. When you're sitting in the Dining car that's been around for 50 years, think about the thousands of people that have sat in the same seat and looked out that window and watched the country pass by. There's so much history in the cars, and all of the things that have happened in them (the "if these walls could talk" theory). They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Burlington Route Zepyrs were streamliners that were ordered as whole trains specific to the route and type of trains they were (long distance overnight, shorter distance day). There were as many as 18 daily Zephyrs at one time on the CB&Q/C&S/FW&D routes. The trains generally ran as complete consists until around 1960 when some trains were discontinued and the cars added to other trains or ran in second sections in heavy periods. The new Denver Zephyr was the last of these complete streamliners in 1957.

 

[NE933]

There's just no money. They're sort of ramming this order through as it is. I personally think this might end up being Amtrak's last-ever LD car order. They'll stretch the Amfleet cars another 30 years (really beyond their lifespan, but they've done that with the heritage stuff now), and by then the whole system will just seem so ridiculously antiquated that it'll hopefully be replaced by HSR... though probably not with a fully national network.

If ramming it in through out every-which-way is the only choice left, you do it, and do it with noise, charging forward to declare you refuse to die and give up. Sort of what a person would do if they were drowning, and it's become quite apparent the present fleet has vulnerable spots that would jeapardize an entire route or region. Amtrak did well by ordering the damned Viewliners, and let Congress pick up the tab. Their tabs have paid for unneeded wars, hookers, and confessions by lobbyists who in turn use our health insurance premiums to ram through a drug that may not be as harmless as the endless TV ads say.

A homeless person on the verge of starving is not committing a crime when he steals his first loaf of bread to feed himself, a drowning person is not doing any wrong when his or her shouts for help interupts the neighbors pod cast of the World Series, and Amtrak is not acting improper while buying new cars that shall replace 20 year overdue relics that are beloved, but can no longer stand up to the rigors of running thousands of miles a week. Anything else is courting failure.

 

[Donctor]

They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.

When they're not bad-ordered, that is.

I believe there are 24 active Heritage diners. Only 15 are required daily.

 

[PRR 60]

I have to wonder how hard Amtrak tried with the Heritage diners. Somehow VIA has been able to take cars of the same vintage, and restore them and maintain them to a very high standard for both operations and passenger comfort. Shiny new cars are great, but imagine for a moment Amtrak doing an in-depth restoration of the existing diner fleet (a real restoration, not the typical Amtrak "lipstick on pig" restoration), and then taking the savings and using the money for more sleepers or, dare I suggest, a proper single-level lounge.

File this under "wishful thinking."

VIA diner

 

[MikefromCrete]

I have to wonder how hard Amtrak tried with the Heritage diners. Somehow VIA has been able to take cars of the same vintage, and restore them and maintain them to a very high standard for both operations and passenger comfort. Shiny new cars are great, but imagine for a moment Amtrak doing an in-depth restoration of the existing diner fleet (a real restoration, not the typical Amtrak "lipstick on pig" restoration), and then taking the savings and using the money for more sleepers or, dare I suggest, a proper single-level lounge.

File this under "wishful thinking."

VIA diner

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.

 

[PRR 60]

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.

I agree that the cars are old, and the Amtrak cars are wrecks, but my point is that VIA is using cars just as old, and those cars are in great shape. The difference is that VIA's restorations were real restorations that produced modern cars in an old shell. The VIA cars are also maintained meticulously. The same basic equipment provides first class cars for first class dining on VIA, and a junk cars for OK dining on Amtrak.

Amtrak has always loved buying new stuff and, better yet, new stuff that they have to design from scratch and no one else buys. Restorations are not as "sexy" and do not create as many jobs (important for political considerations). So, regardless of the economics, buying new is more attractive to Amtrak than fixing old. But, it certainly could be done and, if the result was anything like the VIA diners, how great would that be?

 

[spacecadet]

If ramming it in through out every-which-way is the only choice left, you do it, and do it with noise, charging forward to declare you refuse to die and give up.

I don't disagree, but realistically, Amtrak usually doesn't even have a chance to ram an order through like this. From what I understand, they're able to do it this time with existing money (for the down payment; they're worrying about the rest later), because they got a *little* bit more of an appropriation this year than they usually do. It wasn't intended to pay for new cars but that's what they're going to use it for.

Usually they have barely enough money to even stay afloat, much less even make so much as a down payment on new cars. I mean usually the question is something like "do we repair this bridge that's in danger of falling into the river, or do we buy some new cars?" And the answer is pretty obvious.

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.

Delta is still flying DC-9's that aren't much younger

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.

When they're not bad-ordered, that is.

I believe there are 24 active Heritage diners. Only 15 are required daily.

There are technically 19 cars still on the roster, 17 of them are actually roadworthy, 16 of which are required for service. Amtrak has a spare diner in NY, and if any of them fail in Chicago, Hialeah, or New Orleans, the train gets sent out without one. If two fail in New York, trains get sent out without them.

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.

I agree that the cars are old, and the Amtrak cars are wrecks, but my point is that VIA is using cars just as old, and those cars are in great shape. The difference is that VIA's restorations were real restorations that produced modern cars in an old shell. The VIA cars are also maintained meticulously. The same basic equipment provides first class cars for first class dining on VIA, and a junk cars for OK dining on Amtrak.

Amtrak has always loved buying new stuff and, better yet, new stuff that they have to design from scratch and no one else buys. Restorations are not as "sexy" and do not create as many jobs (important for political considerations). So, regardless of the economics, buying new is more attractive to Amtrak than fixing old. But, it certainly could be done and, if the result was anything like the VIA diners, how great would that be?

Bill, you know not of what you speak. VIA Rail operates two trains that require diners, and neither of those trains operate daily. Amtrak has been running the guts out of those cars. As I noted above, essentially all of the cars are on the road. They are having the wheels rolled off of them. It would not surprise me at all to know that the mileage on the Amtrak cars was double the VIA cars. Actually, yes it would. I would be surprised if it was only double.

Its not just the age that are killing them. Its use. According to a friend of mine that works in Sunnyside, what remains of the once proud Heritage fleet suffers from one truly major and insurmountable problem- metal fatigue. Its not the trucks, nor the wiring, nor the interiors, nor the equipment. Its the cars basic shell that is wearing out. They are breaking apart. It would be more expensive to preserve these cars then to build new ones.

It would be like taking what remains of the third Bugatti Atlantic and "restoring it". It was hit by a train shortly after it was built. Restoring it would be taking the original front chassis rail, unbending it, and rebuilding one around it. It was actually the first car, the prototype, and it's body was built out of magnesium. The train caught fire on impact. Need I say more?

Rebuilding the heritage cars would be a similar effort.

 

[Donctor]

They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.

When they're not bad-ordered, that is.

I believe there are 24 active Heritage diners. Only 15 are required daily.

There are technically 19 cars still on the roster, 17 of them are actually roadworthy, 16 of which are required for service. Amtrak has a spare diner in NY, and if any of them fail in Chicago, Hialeah, or New Orleans, the train gets sent out without one. If two fail in New York, trains get sent out without them.

Ah, thanks for the correction.

How are 16 required for service? Crescent = 4, Meteor = 4, Star = 4, Lake Shore = 3, no?

 

[SunsetLimited01]

They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.

When they're not bad-ordered, that is.

I believe there are 24 active Heritage diners. Only 15 are required daily.

There are technically 19 cars still on the roster, 17 of them are actually roadworthy, 16 of which are required for service. Amtrak has a spare diner in NY, and if any of them fail in Chicago, Hialeah, or New Orleans, the train gets sent out without one. If two fail in New York, trains get sent out without them.

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.

I agree that the cars are old, and the Amtrak cars are wrecks, but my point is that VIA is using cars just as old, and those cars are in great shape. The difference is that VIA's restorations were real restorations that produced modern cars in an old shell. The VIA cars are also maintained meticulously. The same basic equipment provides first class cars for first class dining on VIA, and a junk cars for OK dining on Amtrak.

Amtrak has always loved buying new stuff and, better yet, new stuff that they have to design from scratch and no one else buys. Restorations are not as "sexy" and do not create as many jobs (important for political considerations). So, regardless of the economics, buying new is more attractive to Amtrak than fixing old. But, it certainly could be done and, if the result was anything like the VIA diners, how great would that be?

Bill, you know not of what you speak. VIA Rail operates two trains that require diners, and neither of those trains operate daily. Amtrak has been running the guts out of those cars. As I noted above, essentially all of the cars are on the road. They are having the wheels rolled off of them. It would not surprise me at all to know that the mileage on the Amtrak cars was double the VIA cars. Actually, yes it would. I would be surprised if it was only double.

Its not just the age that are killing them. Its use. According to a friend of mine that works in Sunnyside, what remains of the once proud Heritage fleet suffers from one truly major and insurmountable problem- metal fatigue. Its not the trucks, nor the wiring, nor the interiors, nor the equipment. Its the cars basic shell that is wearing out. They are breaking apart. It would be more expensive to preserve these cars then to build new ones.

It would be like taking what remains of the third Bugatti Atlantic and "restoring it". It was hit by a train shortly after it was built. Restoring it would be taking the original front chassis rail, unbending it, and rebuilding one around it. It was actually the first car, the prototype, and it's body was built out of magnesium. The train caught fire on impact. Need I say more?

Rebuilding the heritage cars would be a similar effort.

All of that might be true, but it doesn't stop anyone from doing it anyway.

 

[jis]

I have to wonder how hard Amtrak tried with the Heritage diners. Somehow VIA has been able to take cars of the same vintage, and restore them and maintain them to a very high standard for both operations and passenger comfort.

The CP Budd cars are some 10 years younger than the Amtrak Heritage fleet cars, and in general the rate at which VIA runs up miles on them is nothing like what Amtrak does. Afterall, more than a third of their Budd fleet sits around doing nothing in the off season.

The other thing going for VIA's Budd fleet is they were from a single owner (mostly) which makes it s single uniform fleet. Even those that VIA acquired from others, were essentially converted to the same equivalent standard at significant cost. OTOH Amtrak got a mish-mash of stuff from many owners and multiple manufacturers, and generally in poorer condition than the CP Budd fleet when VIA got it.

BTW, having met many railfans in many countries, I find that it is a peculiar North American phenomenon to want to keep fixing up old equipment for premium mainline service. Of course everyone loves to restore stuff and run them on special heritage service. But I have not generally come across railfans in other countries who keep insisting that 50 year old stuff be fixed and put back to general use. Indeed many vocally criticize their railways when they try to do anything remotely like that.

 

[spacecadet]

But I have not generally come across railfans in other countries who keep insisting that 50 year old stuff be fixed and put back to general use. Indeed many vocally criticize their railways when they try to do anything remotely like that.

I think that's a testament to how well built and designed the old Budd and Pullman cars were, though (I'm not sure about ACF; I've heard mixed things about maintenance on those cars). I've ridden in old trains in other countries and they just don't really compare.

You know, we were the world leader in rail travel up until about the late 1950's. And with the exception of speed, no other country has ever really equaled that standard of travel since then either (and neither have we). So I think there are perfectly rational reasons for wanting to preserve some vestige of that, especially in the absence of any better alternative. (Even for me, as a fan of heritage equipment, if the options were a) preserve the heritage fleet, or b) have a new, state of the art HSR system, I'd opt for the latter. But that's not the choice. The choice is between preserving old cars and buying new cars that do basically the same things, from a customer perspective.)

I like the Viewliners and I'm sure I will like the new cars, whatever they're actually called (and I read the press release again, it just says they're "similar" to the Viewliners). But those old heritage cars had real personality, which is one thing Amtrak has purposefully stripped out of all of their newer cars.

By the way, other countries do try to preserve modes of travel that they have led in. Look at England and the QE2, which is what, 50 years old now and still sailing? And they just recently produced the QM2, which is another true ocean liner (as opposed to a cruise ship, meaning it is designed for actual transport). This is also an outmoded form of travel, but they refuse to let it go, and they've proven that these ships can still be profitable regardless of how "obsolete" traveling by boat is seen by the rest of the world.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You know, we were the world leader in rail travel up until about the late 1950's. And with the exception of speed, no other country has ever really equaled that standard of travel since then either (and neither have we).

Amazing, isn't it? In a country that has far fewer vacation days than many other industrialized nations, speed is luxury, but most of our trains can't even give us that. Amtrak itself is admired more for what it is than what it does, and that's the problem. We used to be a leader in many areas of transportation technology and service. Now we're a has-been superpower blindly following our former sister-power into a budget-busting attempt to control Afghanistan.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

By the way, other countries do try to preserve modes of travel that they have led in. Look at England and the QE2, which is what, 50 years old now and still sailing? And they just recently produced the QM2, which is another true ocean liner (as opposed to a cruise ship, meaning it is designed for actual transport). This is also an outmoded form of travel, but they refuse to let it go, and they've proven that these ships can still be profitable regardless of how "obsolete" traveling by boat is seen by the rest of the world.

The QE2 was retired over two years ago and has been rotting away in Dubai.

There is a new Queen Elisabeth II but its only 2 years old, built in Italy

 

[Ryan]

Wrong again, Dutch. The new ship is the Queen Elizabeth (no "2" or "II") and Cunard hasn't taken delivery yet.

 

[jis]

You know, we were the world leader in rail travel up until about the late 1950's. And with the exception of speed, no other country has ever really equaled that standard of travel since then either (and neither have we). So I think there are perfectly rational reasons for wanting to preserve some vestige of that, especially in the absence of any better alternative. (Even for me, as a fan of heritage equipment, if the options were a) preserve the heritage fleet, or b) have a new, state of the art HSR system, I'd opt for the latter. But that's not the choice.

That is a good point.

I like the Viewliners and I'm sure I will like the new cars, whatever they're actually called (and I read the press release again, it just says they're "similar" to the Viewliners). But those old heritage cars had real personality, which is one thing Amtrak has purposefully stripped out of all of their newer cars.

One of the cornerstones of quality operation is reduction in variation or deviation from standard, whatever is set as such. This inevitably leads to reduction of individual personality of any given piece of equipment. I don;t think that is going to change anytime soon unless someone can find gobs of money to maintain said personalities.

By the way, other countries do try to preserve modes of travel that they have led in. Look at England and the QE2, which is what, 50 years old now and still sailing? And they just recently produced the QM2, which is another true ocean liner (as opposed to a cruise ship, meaning it is designed for actual transport). This is also an outmoded form of travel, but they refuse to let it go, and they've proven that these ships can still be profitable regardless of how "obsolete" traveling by boat is seen by the rest of the world.

That ships like QM2 are profitable as basic transport is highly questionable. At best they are curiosities and give bragging rights. Some like to spend money on such things. On the other hand the Cruise business is quite profitable, but that is not basic transportation. Ships are profitable as basic transport in areas where they make sense like the coastal steamer service in Norway. but no one in their right mind tries to use the likes of QM2 for that.

Oh well, and meanwhile our friends across the Pacific are on track to introduce HSR from Beijing to Urumqui over 2100 miles distance to be scheduled start to stop for 12 hours running time!

 

[spacecadet]

The QE2 was retired over two years ago and has been rotting away in Dubai.

There is a new Queen Elisabeth II but its only 2 years old, built in Italy

Woops, well I could have made basically the same point just referencing the QM2, which is an attempt to provide passengers with the same level of service that they've always been used to in ocean liners. If we were still building new train cars that were *just like* the old Budd- or Pullman-built cars, but more modern and with extra conveniences, then I think you wouldn't see people complaining about retiring the heritage equipment. But what Amtrak is doing instead is building new cars designed to be completely utilitarian. Which is understandable - they're a government agency - but this is why some of us are trying to preserve what's otherwise been lost.

 

[MrFSS]

Oh well, and meanwhile our friends across the Pacific are on track to introduce HSR from Beijing to Urumqui over 2100 miles distance to be scheduled start to stop for 12 hours running time!

Jis - do you have any idea what type amenities that train set will have? Sleepers (if they ran an overnight trip) - full meal service, etc.

 

[jis]

Jis - do you have any idea what type amenities that train set will have? Sleepers (if they ran an overnight trip) - full meal service, etc.

Haven't heard anything specific. All that I have heard is that they will be Siemens Valero knockoffs manufactured in China under license, with max speed of 350kph (217mph).

But just imagine..... New York to Chicago in 5 hours. A stopping train might take 6.