Washington DC Union Station redevelpment plans

[cirdan]

Am I misinterpreting the plans, or am I right that there is a big glass roof but that the sunlight doesn't actually go down to track level. So all the natural light and airiness is for the retail customers, and train passengers have yet another smelly dark hole in which to catch trains?

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Am I misinterpreting the plans, or am I right that there is a big glass roof but that the sunlight doesn't actually go down to track level. So all the natural light and airiness is for the retail customers, and train passengers have yet another smelly dark hole in which to catch trains?

First off, this is a Master Plan, not a finalized design. It represents an idea about what could be built and a draft to shape further discussion.

Under the current plans, tracks 5-10 & 20 will be under the trainshed and will have natural light. Track 21 will probably get a good deal of natural light, since it's just across the platform from 11. Tracks 1-4 will not be directly under the trainshed, and will not get a whole lot of light, but those are mostly for MARC trains anyway. The Lower Level (22-29) will not get any natural light, and neither will the future HSR tracks which will be fully underground.

That does not mean that passengers are going into a "dark, smelly hole". The platforms will likely be much better than they are today. Currently, most of the Upper Level is dimly lit and platforms are obstructed by huge columns supporting the parking deck.

But the fact is that the government has sold the air rights over the tracks, so development is going to go in there. I think this plan does a reasonable job accommodating both the development and trains.

Here's a view looking northwest from above track 20. Note there are several tracks in the foreground that are under the trainshed.

 

[Ryan]

What's the difference between 25KV and 11KV (other than the obvious)?

Clearance distance. You (or a metal train car) can get closer to 11kV (little "k" big "V") than you can to 25kV without it arcing over. If you get too close the current will actually arc over to you and find an alternative path to ground (through you), with predictably bad results.

 

[jis]

What's the difference between 25KV and 11KV (other than the obvious)?

Clearance distance. You (or a metal train car) can get closer to 11kV (little "k" big "V") than you can to 25kV without it arcing over. If you get too close the current will actually arc over to you and find an alternative path to ground (through you), with predictably bad results.

BTW, NEC South is 12kV nominally. Not 11kV. In the past it used to be 11kV but not any more.

Inside a tunnel there are techniques using insulated padding along the roof to allow the contact wire (or rail as is often used) to have much smaller clearance from the roof than would be in the case if just air was used as the insulation medium. Delhi Metro for example makes extensive use of such in the underground sections. Delhi Metro uses 25kV 50Hz overhead catenary in its entire network irrespective of whether it is in tunnels or in the open.

 

[PRR 60]

What's the difference between 25KV and 11KV (other than the obvious)?

Clearance distance. You (or a metal train car) can get closer to 11kV (little "k" big "V") than you can to 25kV without it arcing over. If you get too close the current will actually arc over to you and find an alternative path to ground (through you), with predictably bad results.

That is theoretically true, but from a practical standpoint, there is no real difference. The dry air arc distance of 11kV or 25kV is effectively the same: about 1 inch verses 2 inches. Arcing does not become a real issue until you get to transmission-class voltages: 69kV and up.

 

[jis]

What's the difference between 25KV and 11KV (other than the obvious)?

Clearance distance. You (or a metal train car) can get closer to 11kV (little "k" big "V") than you can to 25kV without it arcing over. If you get too close the current will actually arc over to you and find an alternative path to ground (through you), with predictably bad results.

That is theoretically true, but from a practical standpoint, there is no real difference. The dry air arc distance of 11kV or 25kV is effectively the same: about 1 inch verses 2 inches. Arcing does not become a real issue until you get to transmission-class voltages: 69kV and up.

Although using a dry air gap distance as the design parameter is generally asking for trouble since in areas like where NEC is located the air is seldom dry and often in addition to being wet it is also salty wet which does wonders to conductivity and flashover distances.

 

[RRUserious]

So Amtrak doesn't actually have the money? $7 billion seems like a lot for a train organization with derailments, what, every month? Every week? I keep losing track (no pun intended). This reminds me of the monumental projects that African dictators planned instead of dealing with the poverty that plagued their countries, a topic that aid experts like to talk about in the 60's and 70's.

 

[cirdan]

So Amtrak doesn't actually have the money? $7 billion seems like a lot for a train organization with derailments, what, every month? Every week? I keep losing track (no pun intended). This reminds me of the monumental projects that African dictators planned instead of dealing with the poverty that plagued their countries, a topic that aid experts like to talk about in the 60's and 70's.

I guess that because there will be a high degree of commercial usage that Amtrak is hoping to bring private investors on board.

Just think of all the rental income from that office space, from the retail stores etc.

 

[Anderson]

So Amtrak doesn't actually have the money? $7 billion seems like a lot for a train organization with derailments, what, every month? Every week? I keep losing track (no pun intended). This reminds me of the monumental projects that African dictators planned instead of dealing with the poverty that plagued their countries, a topic that aid experts like to talk about in the 60's and 70's.

I guess that because there will be a high degree of commercial usage that Amtrak is hoping to bring private investors on board.

Just think of all the rental income from that office space, from the retail stores etc.

Well, and the fact that it isn't likely to all be Amtrak money (and in fact, Amtrak might well not be terribly involved in some aspects of the financial side when the dust settles). I could see Amtrak's involvement being limited to the station alterations and to long-term leases on a lot of the air rights as a means to pay for those improvements. If they do maintain lots of control by not taking too much private money...again, there's a lot of rent/lease money to be generated from a bunch of apartments and offices within a few blocks of the the Capitol. Not to mention just how space-limited DC is because of the height restrictions throughout the city...

 

[jis]

The core additions to the station excluding the 6 additional tracks under the station is not likely to cost more than $1 billion, and possibly considerably less. I suspect the additional tracks under the station itself would eat up another billion though it really should not. The rest is likely to be all real estate driven financed the way real estate development is financed.

The station components will likely be jointly funded in some combo among Amtrak, MARC, VRE and WMATA. So I doubt that Amtrak itself will ever have to come up with anything more than a fraction of the $7 billion pricetag.

In New York for example, how much money do you think is going into the Moynihan headhouse and pedestrian improvement project (Phase I) either directly or indirectly via Amtrak?

 

[afigg]

The core additions to the station excluding the 6 additional tracks under the station is not likely to cost more than $1 billion, and possibly considerably less. I suspect the additional tracks under the station itself would eat up another billion though it really should not. The rest is likely to be all real estate driven financed the way real estate development is financed.

The station components will likely be jointly funded in some combo among Amtrak, MARC, VRE and WMATA. So I doubt that Amtrak itself will ever have to come up with anything more than a fraction of the $7 billion pricetag.

Union Station is owned by US DOT and operated by the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation (USRC) which also operates and receives all the revenue from the parking garage. Amtrak owns the tracks and platforms. Where exactly the dividing line is between Amtrak and USRC/USDOT ownership, don't know. Akridge now owns the air rights above the tracks.

USRC is likely to be the or a lead agency in the oversight of the project. DC government agencies will also be playing a major role in any major station expansion project with DDOT (DC DOT) likely contributing to the road, sidewalk, bike paths, H Street modifications, and streetcar access portions of the station project. US DOT as the owner of Union Station will be involved as well in approving the various parts of the design and projects.

Just to complicate matters, Columbus Plaza in front of the station entrance is owned and maintained by the National Park Service (NPS). The Plaza is currently being rebuilt and reconfigured in coordination with improving the access to the front of Union Station. If they want to build a parking garage under Columbus Plaza, then the NPS would have to approve. If you continue across the Plaza to the south side of Mass Ave, once you are on the sidewalk, you are on land under the control of the Architect of the Capitol and his boss, Congress.

There are many stakeholders in these plans for the Union Station expansion and many of them would be expected to contribute some portion of the costs. Getting all the stakeholders to agree to the various components of the project will almost certainly stretch out the schedule for the phases of the project. If they were to drop the idea of a second parking garage under Columbus Plaza on the south end of the station, that would simplify the process by leaving the NPS and the Architect of the Capitol out of the main aspects of the project.

 

[AlanB]

$7 billion seems like a lot for a train organization with derailments, what, every month? Every week? I keep losing track (no pun intended).

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Amtrak is being affected by freight train derailments, but there is nothing that Amtrak can do about that since Amtrak owns neither the tracks nor the freight trains.

 

[cirdan]

Amtrak is being affected by freight train derailments, but there is nothing that Amtrak can do about that since Amtrak owns neither the tracks nor the freight trains.

Seeing some freight lines allow their track to deteriorate to the point that they can tell Amtrak to either pay to fix it or live with the slow orders, it is maybe the next step that they will tell Amtrak to fix stuff so it doesn't derail.

 

[RRUserious]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

One key difference: Caesar couldn't charge a bunch of vendors rent to make his temple turn a profit. Amtrak can.

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

I did, and didn't see any weekly derailments. How about you provide us with some dates to support your claim?

 

[jis]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

Since you made a seemingly absurd claim perhaps you'd care to give us a list of Amtrak derailments in the last three months and if possible identify which ones were caused by track (infrastructure) fault? Thanks.

 

[afigg]

If I may get this back on topic, some of the DC preservation organizations are starting to weigh in on the plans for Union Station. Washington Post article. The Committee of 100 for the Federal City, Capitol Hill Restoration Society, the DC Preservation League and the National Trust for Historic Preservation have formed the Union Station Preservation Coalition and have issued a briefing on their position (~1 MB PDF file). They are in favor of the project (the Committee of 100 has a number of local businessmen), but will have a strong influence on the planning and design.

According to numbers I saw elsewhere, Akridge is planning to build a $1.5 billion mixed use project, the Burnham Place, with a total of 3 million square feet over the tracks. It would have a 500 room hotel, 1300 residential units, and (I don't have a number) a lot of office space. Given the prime location near Capitol Hill; easy access to commuter trains, Amtrak trains to NYC & Philly, DC Metro; southern edge of the rapidly developing NoMa district, the office space and residential units will command premium prices.

 

[Paulus]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

Since you made a seemingly absurd claim perhaps you'd care to give us a list of Amtrak derailments in the last three months and if possible identify which ones were caused by track (infrastructure) fault? Thanks.

According to the FRA, Amtrak has had 8 derailments in 2012 through the end of May

 

[jis]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

Since you made a seemingly absurd claim perhaps you'd care to give us a list of Amtrak derailments in the last three months and if possible identify which ones were caused by track (infrastructure) fault? Thanks.

According to the FRA, Amtrak has had 8 derailments in 2012 through the end of May

Right. Of those how many were on main line track, and how many of those were due to track defect in main line tracks, since afterall only those would be primarily consequential as far as affecting passengers in service goes. An yard incident could have an impact on service but not as directly as main line incident.

How does this compare with comparable operations elsewhere?

 

[Paulus]

FRA data doesn't show. As for comparison, the entirety of Europe reported 177 derailments in 2009, including freight. They're a wee bit better than us.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Amtrak isn't having derailments every month or every week for that matter.

Just google Amtrak derailment. It isn't all freight trains. Plus Amtrak is running on the tracks that derail both types of trains. The infrastructure is in decay. And this is like Caesar building himself a fancy temple celebrating his love of his ego.

Since you made a seemingly absurd claim perhaps you'd care to give us a list of Amtrak derailments in the last three months and if possible identify which ones were caused by track (infrastructure) fault? Thanks.

According to the FRA, Amtrak has had 8 derailments in 2012 through the end of May

MODS: I suggest this subthread be split into its own thread.

Paulus, thanks for sharing this tool. I didn't know it existed.

Let's look at the derailments:

#1: February 5: DERAILMENT: NJT Extra MMC Drill Crew shoving train in yard in Harrison NJ derailed one truck of one coach. Cause was switch previously run through.

#2: February 26: DERAILMENT: Train 291 derailed while backing onto end of Mansfield track in Rutland VT. Cause was worn switch points.

#3: March 2: DERAILMENT: 1 locomotive hauling 2 cars as a special train #861. Locomotive and first truck of first car derailed in NS yard in Spencer NC. Cause was weak ties allowing rails to spread.

#4: March 5: DERAILMENT: 1 switcher locomotive running light derailed in Washington Terminal rail yard in Washington DC. Cause was rails out of gauge by 5/8 inch.

#5: March 6: DERAILMENT: 1 switcher locomotive pushing 1 loco and 1 car into King Street station derailed in Seattle WA. Cause was a switch not lined and locked.

#6: March 16: DERAILMENT: 1 locomotive, 5 cars making reverse move into yard in Oakland CA derailed. Cause was switch improperly lined.

#7: March 29: DERAILMENT: Acela Express lead power car derailed in Davisville RI (MP 168). Passengers aboard. No injuries. Cause not specified.

#8: May 10: DERAILMENT: 2 locomotives running light (no cars) derailed in the MNRR yard in New Haven CT. Cause was deteriorated tie conditions allowing the rails to spread.

All of these derailments except for #7 happened in rail yards. #7 and #3 happened with passengers aboard, though #3 was a special not running on normal trackage.

It appears that #1 was actually a NJ Transit derailment, listed under Amtrak because Amtrak owns the yard.

#2, #3, and #8 were all derailments caused by deteriorated track conditions on track not owned by Amtrak.

#7 was discussed on this forum, here. Apparently, a maintenance crew did not properly line the switch frogs. The derailment happened at 15 mph.

EDIT: Added location of derailment #2.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Right. Of those how many were on main line track, and how many of those were due to track defect in main line tracks, since afterall only those would be primarily consequential as far as affecting passengers in service goes. An yard incident could have an impact on service but not as directly as main line incident.

Well, the FRA has that data too, going back to 1975.

For Amtrak: derailments on main line track:

Key: YEAR: total ML derailments / caused by track | total injuries (ML derailment) / total deaths (ML derailment)

1975: 10 / 6 | 24 inj / 0 kld

1976: 39 / 21 | 155 inj / 0 kld

1977: 41 / 15 | 27 inj / 0 kld

1978: 50 / 23 | 55 inj / 0 kld

1979: 50 / 21 | 108 inj / 2 kld

1980: 45 / 23 | 78 inj / 0 kld

1981: 33 / 18 | 47 inj / 0 kld

1982: 38 / 23 | 40 inj / 1 kld

1983: 12 / 8 | 40 inj / 4 kld

1984: 19 / 10 | 72 inj / 4 kld

1985: 18 / 8 | 98 inj / 0 kld

1986: 14 / 6 | 51 inj / 0 kld

1987: 17 / 7 | 42 inj / 0 kld

1988: 12 / 5 | 34 inj / 0 kld

1989: 10 / 1 | 40 inj / 0 kld

1990: 19 / 6 | 201 inj / 0 kld

1991: 10 / 3 | 50 inj / 8 kld

1992: 11 / 3 | 29 inj / 0 kld

1993: 15 / 6 | 123 inj / 47 kld

1994: 13 / 5 | 52 inj / 0 kld

1995: 6 / 2 | 41 inj / 1 kld

1996: 12 / 4 | 17 inj / 0 kld

1997: 20 / 8 | 70 inj / 1 kld

1998: 16 / 5 | 25 inj / 0 kld

1999: 5 / 3 | 8 inj / 0 kld

2000: 20 / 10 | 75 inj / 0 kld

2001: 15 / 9 | 65 inj / 1 kld

2002: 12/ 7 | 206 inj / 4 kld

2003: 12 / 10 | 2 inj / 0 kld

2004: 11 / 6 | 56 inj / 1 kld

2005: 13 / 7 | 49 inj / 0 kld

2006: 15 / 12 | 19 inj / 0 kld

2007: 8 / 5 | 1 inj / 0 kld

2008: 10 / 3 | 3 inj / 0 kld

2009: 14 / 8 | 6 inj / 0 kld

2010: 7 / 3 | 28 inj / 0 kld

2011: 9 / 4 | 4 inj / 0 kld

EDIT: Adding this bit of clarification:

For example, look at 1993. The 47 deaths (and 103 of the injuries) were caused by the collision of a barge with a bridge over Big Bayou Canot, which misaligned the track and caused a mainline derailment of the Sunset Limited. Not Amtrak's fault, but it's counted because it was a derailment.

 

[Paulus]

Where did you find the derailment details if I may ask?

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Where did you find the derailment details if I may ask?

On the same FRA website you pointed us to. I didn't know it existed, but you can get any kind of report you want.

For the derailment details: Home -> Data drop down, select "query" -> FRA Accident/Incident Query -> Reportable Rail Equipment Accidents -> Accident Detail Report

And then select the following fields:

Railroad: AMTRAK

Type of Accident: DERAILMENT

Unfortunately, you can only search one month at a time, so that's a little tedious.

You can filter by track type (Main, Yard, etc), state, county, cause of accident, passenger only, etc.

But there are lots of other reports you can generate, too.