What happens on the train when it is twelve hours late?

[MennoRoger]

On October 21, 2024 (today), the Southwest Chief #3 is listed by Railrat.net as 12 hours late on departure from Albuquerque. We are planning our first train trip on this train in January. What happens on the train when it is twelve hours late? Do they keep serving food for roomette passengers (for free)? Is there enough water and whatever else is needed for the passengers? Does the train staff provide anything to help pass the time or otherwise occupy the time? Thanks for any experiences or comments.

 

[PaTrainFan]

I had an experience like this on the California Zephyr several years ago, 12 hours late into Emeryville. Their reserve food at the time was Dinty Moore beef stew over rice for lunch and dinner. That's it. I forget what was done for breakfast, but I think there was enough in reserve to manage a reduced menu. Water wasn't issue on that trip but given the aging equipment failure of the equipment is a risk at any given time. Staff didn't do anything above and beyond to help "pass the time." They were as frustrated as we were. The most unfortunate part was we arrived in Emeryville at about 4 a.m., and were dumped into the night.

 

[zephyr17]

They'll serve a meal to all passengers, typically Dinty Moore stew over rice. They probably will not serve the regular diner menu to sleeper passengers as they likely will have run out.

They'll likely run low on all items, including bottled water. However, no one will go thirsty, They'll make the regular watering stops so the cars' supplies will not run out. It's potable.

The crew doesn't do anything special.

I have been on more 8-14 hour late trains than I can count, and have "eaten the stew" many times.

 

[zetharion]

At least its some really good stew lol. I like that Dinty Moore stuff.

 

[JayPea]

I was on the Empire Builder train #8 that was 12 hours late into Chicago two weeks ago. The sleeper passengers got an extra entree (no dessert or appetizer) and coach passengers got the beef stew and a goodie box for food. Passengers who missed their connections in Chicago were given room accommodations and were able to be rebooked on the next day's train, and all of us were given food vouchers. And I got, and am guessing, everyone else got $200 travel vouchers, good for a year. I wasn't making same day connections so it didn't bother me. An extra night on the train and and an extra entree?? Worth it to me. The crew was excellent; they were very accommodating, especially toward the coach passengers. I was in a sleeper and was very impressed by our car attendant, Manny. We were that late due to slow orders because of high winds and because of wildfires that damaged the tracks east of Williston. We were held in Williston for 8 hours before going again. Great job by the crew in a difficult situation.

 

[JayPea]

I was on the Empire Builder train #8 that was 12 hours late into Chicago two weeks ago. The sleeper passengers got an extra entree (no dessert or appetizer) and coach passengers got the beef stew and a goodie box for food. Passengers who missed their connections in Chicago were given room accommodations and were able to be rebooked on the next day's train, and all of us were given food vouchers. And I got, and am guessing, everyone else got $200 travel vouchers, good for a year. I wasn't making same day connections so it didn't bother me. An extra night on the train and and an extra entree?? Worth it to me. The crew was excellent; they were very accommodating, especially toward the coach passengers. I was in a sleeper and was very impressed by our car attendant, Manny. We were that late due to slow orders because of high winds and because of wildfires that damaged the tracks east of Williston. We were held in Williston for 8 hours before going again. Great job by the crew in a difficult situation.

I should add too that for what would have been the last meal into Chicago, all coach passengers, free of charge, got their choice of a hot dog or meatless burger from the dining car.

 

[Amtrak25]

At what point do they call up Quiznos (which I had on a Pioneer when the diner was rendered unsuable by a water tank leak), Subway, or KFC ? Subway is not set up well for mass production.

 

[AFS1970]

Subway is not set up well for mass production.

This surprises me. My local Subway advertises platters and six-foot-long sandwiches. I have seen them lay out 4-5 sandwiches at once and do the toppings. So, I would assume if they were making all the sandwiches the same, it would be fairly simple. Granted it would need to be scaled up for a whole train.

 

[Asher]

While on the train you are along for the ride. Hunger may be an issue. Once off the train a whole list of things may have to be adjusted or scrapped. Connections, flights, lodging, reservations and so on. Hang loose.

 

[zephyr17]

At what point do they call up Quiznos (which I had on a Pioneer when the diner was rendered unsuable by a water tank leak), Subway, or KFC ? Subway is not set up well for mass production.

That's usually if the diner goes out of service for some reason, or bustitutions, not so much severe lateness. My guess is, if it's done in cases of lateness, they don't have enough stock of the emergency rations onboard for some reason.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

It not too bad when your late on a train.
It totally different experience to be waiting for a late train.

 

[Trollopian]

In the post that started this thread, the Chief was 10 hours late into Albuquerque, which is roughly the halfway point of the route. It's a biggish city and a longish stop under normal circumstances. Does that matter to restocking the train? I would think it might, because one hopes that there are more options in Albuquerque than in, say, Needles CA or Williston ND.

(And yes, MennoRoger is booked on the Chief in January, but his question is more generalizable to major delays that could happen on any route. I'm just speculating that "where?" and "why?" make a difference in Amtrak's response. Or not. In the most nightmarish case, Amtrak takes no responsibility even to transport its paid passengers, never mind feed them. See https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ssion-q4-2023-2024.86124/page-12#post-1046889.)

 

[zephyr17]

In the post that started this thread, the Chief was 10 hours late into Albuquerque, which is roughly the halfway point of the route. It's a biggish city and a longish stop under normal circumstances. Does that matter to restocking the train? I would think it might, because one hopes that there more options in Albuquerque than in, say, Needles CA or Williston ND.

(And yes, MennoRoger is booked on the Chief in January, but his question is more generalizable to major delays that could happen on any route. I'm just speculating that "where?" and "why?" make a difference in Amtrak's response. Or not. In the most nightmarish case, Amtrak takes no responsibility even to transport its paid passengers, never mind feed them. See https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ssion-q4-2023-2024.86124/page-12#post-1046889.)

Amtrak only has commisary services at terminals. The only western LD with a mid route commisary is the Starlight which can use the Oakland commisary to top off. They do not stock diners or cafes away from commisaries.

Santa Fe/Fred Harvey maintained several commisaries along the route up to the end, Kansas City, La Junta and Albuquerque come to mind. But that was Santa Fe, we are now stuck with Amtrak.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Seems to me that the "dumping out in the middle of the night", as in Emeryville, needs to stop. At that hour, the train should stay operational in the station with passengers allowed to stay on board if they wish and the dump-out happening maybe at 6 or 7 in the morning. This is another reason why Seattle, Emeryville and LA need one more trainset in each long-distance train rotation to deal with the problem of late equipment turns. Yes, that costs money, theoretically, but with all the railroad and weather delay problems of today, it's now the cost of doing business.

 

[zephyr17]

This is another reason why Seattle, Emeryville and LA need one more trainset in each long-distance train rotation to deal with the problem of late equipment turns. Yes, that costs money, theoretically, but with all the railroad and weather delay problems of today, it's now the cost of doing business.

It isn't the money, they flat do not have enough equipment to have extra consists.

The crew stops being paid the second the train stops at its terminal. That is indeed a matter of money, but also of culture. When they initially moved the Sunset's arrival at Los Angeles to 5:35 am, the policy was that they'd allow sleeper occupancy until 6:30 am. And the train can and does arrive as early as around 4:30 am. The problem was the crews often kicked the passengers off at arrival anyway, despite being paid for the extra time if they'd have remained on duty. Amtrak surrendered to reality and dropped the 6:30 am occupancy.

OBS doing their own thing in spite of published policy has gone on for literally decades and is now very deeply rooted in Amtrak’s corporate culture. That Amtrak management should address it generally, and should have addressed the occupancy issue on the Sunset specifically, is beyond question. But they have persistently ignored it. Reversing such embedded corporate culture will be a work of years of persistent and consistent work, even if they started tomorrow. Which they show not the slightest hint of doing.

What you state would work well at a theoretical Amtrak, unfortunately we are stuck with the actual one.

 

[jis]

It isn't the money, they flat do not have enough equipment to have extra consists.

The crew stops being paid the second the train stops at its terminal. That is indeed a matter of money, but also of culture. When they initially moved the Sunset's arrival at Los Angeles to 5:35 am, the policy was that they'd allow sleeper occupancy until 6:30 am. And the train can and does arrive as early as around 4:30 am. The problem was the crews often kicked the passengers off at arrival anyway, despite being paid for the extra time if they'd have remained on duty. Amtrak surrendered to reality and dropped the 6:30 am occupancy.

OBS doing their own thing in spite of published policy has gone on for literally decades and is now very deeply rooted in Amtrak’s corporate culture. That Amtrak management should address it generally, and should have addressed the occupancy issue on the Sunset specifically, is beyond question. But they have persistently ignored it. Reversing such embedded corporate culture will be a work of years of persistent and consistent work, even if they started tomorrow. Which they show not slightest hint of doing.

What you state would work well at a theoretical Amtrak, unfortunate we are stuck with the actual one.

Very well put. I think if an extra consist was stabled out of use for each LD year round just for those occasions when incomings were too late, The OIG would get on the case of Amtrak about waste of resources too. Afterall money really does not grow on trees and even consists held dead cost operating funds money. Afterall we criticize Amtrak all the time for holding over 20% of available fleet away from revenue service already.

 

[Harmon Shay]

It isn't the money, they flat do not have enough equipment to have extra consists.

The crew stops being paid the second the train stops at its terminal. That is indeed a matter of money, but also of culture. When they initially moved the Sunset's arrival at Los Angeles to 5:35 am, the policy was that they'd allow sleeper occupancy until 6:30 am. And the train can and does arrive as early as around 4:30 am. The problem was the crews often kicked the passengers off at arrival anyway, despite being paid for the extra time if they'd have remained on duty. Amtrak surrendered to reality and dropped the 6:30 am occupancy.

OBS doing their own thing in spite of published policy has gone on for literally decades and is now very deeply rooted in Amtrak’s corporate culture. That Amtrak management should address it generally, and should have addressed the occupancy issue on the Sunset specifically, is beyond question. But they have persistently ignored it. Reversing such embedded corporate culture will be a work of years of persistent and consistent work, even if they started tomorrow. Which they show not the slightest hint of doing.

What you state would work well at a theoretical Amtrak, unfortunately we are stuck with the actual one.

Amtrak does have the three Capitol Limited consists coming out of service soon. It would be nice to use the cars from those trainsets to expand existing consists, but I wonder if it isn't more realistic to put those extra sets in Seattle, Oakland (Emeryville) and Los Angeles. I think it's a flat requirement in Seattle now (and possibly Portland for the Empire Builder Portland section). Those Northwest fast turns are simply no longer realistic.

 

[zephyr17]

Amtrak does have the three Capitol Limited consists coming out of service soon. It would be nice to use the cars from those trainsets to expand existing consists, but I wonder if it isn't more realistic to put those extra sets in Seattle, Oakland (Emeryville) and Los Angeles. I think it's a flat requirement in Seattle now (and possibly Portland for the Empire Builder Portland section). Those Northwest fast turns are simply no longer realistic.

The Builder turns at Seattle and Portland never were entirely realistic. But most of the time the worst effect is they go out a just a couple hours late, which is not great, but not catastrophic either. Since the January 1st, it left Seattle more than 2 1/2 hours late 12 times, and more than 4 hours late just 4 times. The 10 and 11 pm departures are attention grabbing but uncommon (just two that late).

The equipment is needed to try to get the consists closer to back where they were in 2019, which I do not consider an expansion but a restoration of minimums. The Builder lost its recently restored and badly needed second Seattle coach in August. The SW Chief recently lost its second sleeper. The Zephyr and the Starlight both operated with three standard sleepers plus a transdorm in peak season. They operated with three and four coaches in peak periods The Sunset had a transdorm in addition to at least one standard sleeper.

In light of the general Superliner equipment shortage, keeping extra consists seems like using an ax as a flyswatter.

With all that said, I would hope that any new LD order includes more robust protection equipment, though I do not hold out great hopes for that. Until then, "delayed departure due to late inbound equipment" is just a sorry fact of life.

 

[railiner]

In addition to having enough spare equipment at long distance train turn-around points to “set in” an on time train, what about crews, both OBS and T&E? How many times are departure’s delayed, waiting for rested crews?
Of course, that would be costly as well, to have more crew drawing wages and benefits than are required normally.

 

[zephyr17]

In addition to having enough spare equipment at long distance train turn-around points to “set in” an on time train, what about crews, both OBS and T&E? How many times are departure’s delayed, waiting for rested crews?
Of course, that would be costly as well, to have more crew drawing wages and benefits than are required normally.

Most crew rest related delays are at smaller crew bases en route, not at the endpoints where the train is turned. Particularly at the en route away terminals. At endpoints in larger cities most crews at the base are qualified on multiple routes so there are others available. In most cases an entirely different crew will routinely take the turned consist outbound. Their call time should be adjusted to match the estimated departure. The only LD exception I can think of is the Starlight, where an SLO based crew works SLO-LA-SLO. I don't know if both directions are both Starlight or a Starlight/Surfliner combo, like Seattle-Portland is a Starlight/Cascades combo.

As to OBS crews, there are no HOS rules. At away terminals, their rest is however long the consist takes to turn. There will be an on duty time established when the actual delay is known before the train's arrival. Departure shouldn't be delayed due to a turning OBS crew's rest. I've had conversations with OBS on severely (12-14 hours) late Builders into Chicago about how miserable it was going to be.

The SW Chief's, Starlight's and Sunset's home OBS terminal is LA, the Seattle section of the Builder's OBS home terminal is Seattle. Only the Zephyr and the Portland Builder do not have their home OBS terminals on the West Coast end. The Portland Builder's OBS crew does not turn with the consist at Portland, they lay over to the next day's 28. I don't know about the Zephyr's OBS crew turn in Oakland.

In short, crew rest does not have a significant effect on delaying turns. But T&E crew rest can significantly add delay to trains en route.

 

[Harmon Shay]

The Builder turns at Seattle and Portland never were entirely realistic. But most of the time the worst effect is they go out a just a couple hours late, which is not great, but not catastrophic either. Since the January 1st, it left Seattle more than 2 1/2 hours late 12 times, and more than 4 hours late just 4 times. The 10 and 11 pm departures are attention grabbing but uncommon (just two that late).

The equipment is needed to try to get the consists closer to back where they were in 2019, which I do not consider an expansion but a restoration of minimums. The Builder lost its recently restored and badly needed second Seattle coach in August. The SW Chief recently lost its second sleeper. The Zephyr and the Starlight both operated with three standard sleepers plus a transdorm in peak season. They operated with three and four coaches in peak periods The Sunset had a transdorm in addition to at least one standard sleeper.

In light of the general Superliner equipment shortage, keeping extra consists seems like using an ax as a flyswatter.

With all that said, I would hope that any new LD order includes more robust protection equipment, though I do not hold out great hopes for that. Until then, "delayed departure due to late inbound equipment" is just a sorry fact of life.

Still it seems to me that these blown fast turns shouldn't be happening when a solution is probably at hand. I hate to think what this winter's going to be like. Amtrak just can't keep operating this way and expect to stay credible.

 

[zephyr17]

Still it seems to me that these blown fast turns shouldn't be happening when a solution is probably at hand. I hate to think what this winter's going to be like. Amtrak just can't keep operating this way and expect to stay credible.

1. What solution is "at hand"?
2. What is special about this coming winter?
3. There were a hell of a lot more blown turns on the Builder for years during the Bakken oil boom of the early 2010s before BNSF added a lot of second main track than there are now.
4. Amtrak has been Forrest Gumping its way along on a shoestring for over 53 years. Credibility has never been a strong point.

 

[Harmon Shay]

1. What solution is "at hand"?
2. What is special about this coming winter?
3. There were a hell of a lot more blown turns on the Builder for years during the Bakken oil boom of the early 2010s before BNSF added a lot of second main track than there are now.
4. Amtrak has been Forrest Gumping its way along on a shoestring for over 53 years. Credibility has never been a strong point.

The equipment solution would be in the Capitol Limited Superliner sets coming out of that rotation November 10th.
The National Weather Service and other forecasters, as I understand it, are predicting a really cold, nasty winter across at least the northern part of the country this year, apparently more so than usual. That would lead to more equipment delays and speed restrictions.
Amtrak needs to prevent Forest Gumping whenever it can, and this equipment realignment could give it the ability to do so. And Amtrak really needs to improve its credibility right now, seems to me.

 

[Brian Battuello]

Travelling in a sleeping car on Amtrak is an odd mix of cruise ship and camping, and you never know which one you'll get.

But don't get your hopes up for cruise ship....

 

[Amtrak25]

The Capitol Ltd will release 6 sleepers, 6 coaches and 3 37000 diner/lounges.

There is always the possibility of cut cars. If they don't have 6 coaches or sleepers to add to the Zephyr sets, they could have 3 to cut/add at Denver. It would be very easy with it backing in for each direction.

2 sleepers, 3 coaches, and a diner/lounge could be a Chicago-based spare trainset for anything coming in 12-18 hours late and saving them from cancelling trains in each direction for a day.

The Eagle has at St Louis cut coach. Could they for the Chief at KC ?

In a few months, they will have to scrape up equipment for the Denver Ski train. What does the RMR equipment do all winter ? Could Amtrak lease it for the purpose ?