What would you add?

[neroden]

Colorado will probably want to maintain the line west to... some point or other... but does anyone know whether Utah's state government would care at all?

I'm not sure how far Colorado would maintain the line to.  Definitely Winter Park (Fraser would close for sure).  Probably Glenwood Springs.   Maybe Grand Junction.  Almost certainly not Green River, IMO.  And there's the catch: Provo to Grand Junction is nearly the same distance (252 mi) as Denver to Glenwood Springs (273 mi), and does not benefit Colorado at all.  And I don't see Utah caring.

I have personally proposed, several times, the following arrangement:

(1) A "Extended Ski Train" run by Colorado which goes all the way from Denver to Grand Junction.  (Though Glenwood Springs is arguably more likely.  If they could extend from Glenwood springs to Aspen that would be better, and might be politically viable.)

(2) The California Zephyr going from Denver to Salt Lake City via Wyoming, which is actually faster than the current route.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

 

[bretton88]

Colorado will probably want to maintain the line west to... some point or other... but does anyone know whether Utah's state government would care at all?I'm not sure how far Colorado would maintain the line to.  Definitely Winter Park (Fraser would close for sure).  Probably Glenwood Springs.   Maybe Grand Junction.  Almost certainly not Green River, IMO.  And there's the catch: Provo to Grand Junction is nearly the same distance (252 mi) as Denver to Glenwood Springs (273 mi), and does not benefit Colorado at all.  And I don't see Utah caring.

I have personally proposed, several times, the following arrangement:

(1) A "Extended Ski Train" run by Colorado which goes all the way from Denver to Grand Junction.  (Though Glenwood Springs is arguably more likely.  If they could extend from Glenwood springs to Aspen that would be better, and might be politically viable.)

(2) The California Zephyr going from Denver to Salt Lake City via Wyoming, which is actually faster than the current route.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

Why would you think Utah wouldn't care? Utah is a state that has a really good intermodal system up the Wasatch front. I think Utah would care. The biggest problem the route faces is very little online population SLC to Grand Junction and it misses the biggest draw in the area (Moab). It would be hard for UDOT to justify saving the route versus running several better timed and cheaper busses from SLC that could directly serve Moab too.

 

[jis]

I thought Utah would not care about that specific route precisely because of the reason you mention. It runs through an area where there is hardly any source of ridership.

 

[railiner]

.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

Minor correction....BNSF line crosses the UP at Cheyenne, not Laramie.   You are right about it being slower than the UP route thru Greeley....about twice as long....

 

[frequentflyer]

Yeah. The Moffatt Line will be maintained at the minimal grade necessary for serving a few Coal Mines until they last. After that the business case becomes highly questionable. So it is either State sponsored or nothing. Just my partly informed speculation.

Makes one wander what was the business plan for UP buying the Rio Grande RR in the first place.

 

[jis]

Makes one wander what was the business plan for UP buying the Rio Grande RR in the first place.

Back when that happened there was Coal and no one had imagined it will have such a precipitous fall back then.

 

[railiner]

Way back when, the three original operator's of the CZ....Burlington, Rio Grande, and Western Pacific would have been a 'natural' merger...

 

[ehbowen]

If I'm Remembering Correctly, the MoPac, D&RGW, and Western Pacific were all under common ownership (Gould System) in the first half of the 20th century. Out of that came the transcontinental Scenic Limited from St. Louis to San Francisco over much of what would become the CZ's route. After Burlington had perfected the dome car and established the Zephyr franchise, they stepped in and supplanted MoPac as the partner east of the Rockies with a new terminus in Chicago (vs. St. Louis).

 

[railiner]

If I'm Remembering Correctly, the MoPac, D&RGW, and Western Pacific were all under common ownership (Gould System) in the first half of the 20th century. Out of that came the transcontinental Scenic Limited from St. Louis to San Francisco over much of what would become the CZ's route. After Burlington had perfected the dome car and established the Zephyr franchise, they stepped in and supplanted MoPac as the partner east of the Rockies with a new terminus in Chicago (vs. St. Louis).

What really made the Burlington the main connection east of Denver, was first, the building of the Moffat Tunnel, and then a few years later, the opening of the Dotsero Cutoff, which was 'officiated' by the Burlington's Pioneer Zephyr in 1934...

 

[neroden]

Minor correction....BNSF line crosses the UP at Cheyenne, not Laramie.   You are right about it being slower than the UP route thru Greeley....about twice as long....

But so many more high-population stops.  The extra 2 hours would be worth it to have stations at Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, and Fort Collins, instead of... just Greeley.  I mean, massive additional ridership.

 

[railiner]

But so many more high-population stops.  The extra 2 hours would be worth it to have stations at Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, and Fort Collins, instead of... just Greeley.  I mean, massive additional ridership.

Maybe RTD, someday...not likely Amtrak....

 

[jis]

Maybe RTD, someday...not likely Amtrak....

Yeah. I agree. A local DMU service. I would be very surprised to ever see an LD train on that route. I have spent quite a bit of time in Westminster and Fort Collins on work related visits and am rather familiar with the lay of the land and line there.

 

[railiner]

Yeah. I agree. A local DMU service. I would be very surprised to ever see an LD train on that route. I have spent quite a bit of time in Westminster and Fort Collins on work related visits and am rather familiar with the lay of the land and line there.

Funny you should mention Westminster...I lived there for many years.....

I did see the SFZ detour over that line one time...it "killed me", that I couldn't get to ride it that day....

 

[jis]

Funny you should mention Westminster...I lived there for many years.....
I did see the SFZ detour over that line one time...it "killed me", that I couldn't get to ride it that day....[emoji20][emoji6]

Westminster is where the old Western Electric plant that manufactured PBXs and the associated Bell Labs Denver used to be. I visited there often when I worked for the Bell Telephone Labs - my first job after Grad School back in the early ‘80s.

 

[railiner]

Westminster is where the old Western Electric plant that manufactured PBXs and the associated Bell Labs Denver used to be. I visited there often when I worked for the Bell Telephone Labs - my first job after Grad School back in the early ‘80s.

I lived within walking distance...12100 Melody Drive....

And I spent a year attending Front Range Community College, on the other side of that plant...

I used to use the RTD  "Wagon Road Park & Ride" to get to work, at times, but mostly just drove....

 

[neroden]

Just because the Front Range communities want local commuter rail doesn't mean they wouldn't be happy to get Amtrak as well.  BNSF is a friendlier host than UP.

 

[dumboldboy]

5. One additional East-West extension: Establish some service to Asheville, NC by extending the NC State's trains. Another pipe dream.

You may get half your wish on this one.  Many years ago, North Carolina's DOT built stations along the line to Asheville.  Expansion was put on hold at the host railroad's request due to capacity constraints of the Old Fort Loops (the grade up the Blue Ridge).  In the meanwhile, the state is considering a Thruway that would meet trains at either Salisbury or High Point and serve those dormant stations.

 

[west point]

It would seem that Ashville service start at the base of Old Fort Loops.  Run a thruway from there to Ashville.  That would make NC DOT schedules much more time appealing !  Could make it a station stop with a stub end siding with required surface HEP, potable water, lavatory servicing !

You may get half your wish on this one.  Many years ago, North Carolina's DOT built stations along the line to Asheville.  Expansion was put on hold at the host railroad's request due to capacity constraints of the Old Fort Loops (the grade up the Blue Ridge).  In the meanwhile, the state is considering a Thruway that would meet trains at either Salisbury or High Point and serve those dormant stations.

 

[dumboldboy]

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati - Charlotte

fixed it for you :-þ

 

[NSC1109]

Updates to the NEMP. Changes to previous listings are in blue, new additions are listed in red. 

[SIZE=14pt]Corridor Routes:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Wolverine (2x pair)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Blue Water (1x pair)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Pere Marquette (1x pair GRR-CHI, 1x pair GRR-DET)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Hiawatha (2x pair)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Lincoln Service (2x pair)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Expanded Missouri River Runner (1x pair)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Extended Heartland Flyer to Kansas City[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Cincinnatian [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Detroit-Toledo-Cincinnati)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Lake Cities [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Detroit – Traverse City)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Buckeye [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Detroit – Toledo – Columbus)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Bluegrass [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Cuyahoga Valley [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Toledo – Cleveland)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Iowan [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Davenport – Cedar Rapids)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Twin Cities [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Milwaukee – Minneapolis/St. Paul)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Black Hawk [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Dubuque)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Quad Cities Zephyr [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Quad Cities)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Queen City Limited [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Indianapolis – Cincinnati)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Prairie Star[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Kansas City – Hastings – Denver)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Desert Wind [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Los Angeles – Las Vegas)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Kansas City Zephyr [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Galesburg – Kansas City)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Apache Limited [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Los Angeles – Yuma – Phoenix)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Golden Gate [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Los Angeles – San Francisco)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]North Shore (Duluth – Minneapolis/St. Paul) (Connects with Frontier Service and Twin Cities)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Frontier Service (Minneapolis/St. Paul – Des Moines – Kansas City) (Connects with extended HF)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Pioneer (Portland – Hermiston – Boise)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Ohio Sprinter (Cincinnati – Columbus – Cleveland)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Long Distance Routes (New and Updated): [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]21st Century Limited [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](NYP – Philadelphia – Pittsburgh – Cleveland – Toledo – Chicago)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Bostonian [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Toledo – Cleveland – Buffalo – Albany – Springfield – Boston)[/SIZE]

City of Los Angeles  ( Chicago - Omaha - Denver - Salt Lake City - Las Vegas - Los Angeles)

[SIZE=12pt]Empire State [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Detroit – Niagara Falls – Albany – NYP)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Great Plainsman (Chicago – Omaha – Denver)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]International[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Chicago – Detroit – Toronto)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Lake Shore Limited [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Detroit – Albany – New York City)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Peachtree [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville – Nashville – Atlanta)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Silver Comet [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville – Nashville – Atlanta – Orlando – Tampa)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Silver Meteor [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](NYP– Washington – Savannah – Jacksonville – Orlando – Miami)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Silver Palm [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](NYP – Washington – Savannah – Jacksonville – Orlando – Tampa)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Texas Chief [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Los Angeles – Phoenix – El Paso – Dallas)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Centennial (Los Angeles – Las Vegas – Grand Junction – Denver)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Daily Cardinal[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Daily Sunset Limited – fully restored to Orlando[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Summary of Changes:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Heartland Flyer extension's northern terminus was changed from Witchita to Kansas City.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Chicago - Milwaukee - Minneapolis/St. Paul service name was changed from North Star to Twin Cities.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]3C service in Ohio was added as the Ohio Sprinter.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Service between Duluth and Minneapolis/St. Paul was added as the North Shore. This service will be timed to connect to the Twin Cities and Frontier Service in Minneapolis/St. Paul. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Service between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Kansas City was added as the Frontier Service. This service will be timed to connect to the Heartland Flyer in Kansas City and the North Shore in Minneapolis/St. Paul. [/SIZE]

Service to Boise was added as the Pioneer. This service will travel via Hermiton and connect with one of the Cascades service trains.

The Centennial and Great Plainsmen have been removed and combined into the City of Los Angeles, following the routing of the California Zephyr to SLC and then heading south to LV and LA. 

Restoration of both the daily Cardinal and Sunset Limited while also extending the SSL back to Orlando. 

 

[sttom]

- Better corridor service across the US. There are way too many areas that should have service and don't. Like Ohio in general, some parts of Michigan and Indiana along with parts of California and the south west. 

- Budget sleeper option. Amtrak is adding "business" class to some long distance trains. Make the upgrade worth something. 

- 2+1 business class. (What is the point of 2+2 business class besides the mark up?)

 

[cpotisch]

- 2+1 business class. (What is the point of 2+2 business class besides the mark up?)

2x1 Business Class seating is already offered on PLENTY of routes, such as the Empire Service, LSL, Ethan Allen Express, Maple Leaf, Cardinal, overnight Regionals, Downeaster and most of the Midwest state-supported routes. And as to the question of what benefits there can be of 2x2 BC, the answer is legroom and/or an improved soft product.

 

[sttom]

2x1 Business Class seating is already offered on PLENTY of routes, such as the Empire Service, LSL, Ethan Allen Express, Maple Leaf, Cardinal, overnight Regionals, Downeaster and most of the Midwest state-supported routes. And as to the question of what benefits there can be of 2x2 BC, the answer is legroom and/or an improved soft product.

My point is I would make it a consistent product. Coach has adequate legroom when compared to a bus or airline. A few extra inches isn't worth much compared to 2+1 business class. It's not even worth it with 2 bottles of water and a $6 food voucher thrown in. 

 

[Joke Insurance]

Amtrak wants more short-distance, city-to-city trains. But at what cost?
March 18, 2019

https://www.chicagotribune.com/busi...ort-routes-getting-around-20190311-story.html

"Amtrak says that because of this reality, it wants to increase its city-to-city, short-haul trips. That could mean adding trains between cities like Chicago and Cleveland, or Chicago and Cincinnati -- routes that could offer a time-competitive alternative to driving."

What short-distance, city-to-city routes would you all like to see? And yes, I am aware that this is old news.

 

[railiner]

Welcome to AU!

Highest on my wish list would be Cleveland Columbus Cincinnati....but yes, you are right...this is "old news"...