Why aren't overnight trains able to compete with flying?

[Exvalley]

What happened was airlines drained away the business travel that these trains depended on. Their clientele evaporated.

Let's be fair here. The airlines provided a service. Consumers are the ones who made the choice - and they chose what they preferred. You can't fault the airlines for giving the consumer what they wanted.

It is not necessary to make short segments very HSR. Just get rid of the slow(er) sections.

Agreed! I rode a Northeast Regional for the first time in years this past weekend. One of the things that surprised me the most was how long it took to travel between Pelham and Penn Station. I know that there is no easy answer, but that long loop through Astoria at a not-so-fast speed seemed to be incredibly inefficient.

 

[tonys96]

A single rider's experience is not the factual situation of "everyone" else.
I found a dead mouse in my garage last week. Does that mean everyone else in the world has dead nice in their garage? Of course not.
It does mean that I probably have a few more live ones out there, though, unfortunately. Hello hardware store for some mouse traps.

 

[jruff001]

A train I take twice a month and often look up the numbers on does provide me some hard data. I frequently look up it’s load factor. His proof for his original claim was a round about single story not suggesting a trend.

What data do you have access to that shows the ratio of business to leisure travelers on the Night Owl (or whatever it is you are using to claim there are a lot of business travelers on the Night Owl)?

 

[Tlcooper44]

What data do you have access to that shows the ratio of business to leisure travelers on the Night Owl (or whatever it is you are using to claim there are a lot of business travelers on the Night Owl)?

You didn’t read any of my posts very carefully, so I’m not sure why I should entertain a reply...

I never stated that there were a lot of business travelers on the Night Owl. I only stated that I use it for business, and that it is a well patronized train, probably not exclusively used for leisure (the claim I was contesting was “night trains worldwide only work for tourism”). There’s a bunch of reasons people travel outside of leisure and business... to suggest that all 400 passengers on the Night Owl are tourists is highly unlikely (and incorrect if I’m on the train...). Around the world, especially in China, the original claim is flat out wrong.

It is very easy to find the average load factor of all Amtrak trains. Just do 5 minutes of research.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’ve rarely ridden a long distance / overnight train where I didn’t meet someone who was traveling for “non-leisure” purposes. This includes the Canadian and even Iowa Pacific’s Pullman service where one of my fellow travelers was an IT guy who used the city of New Orleans regularly and when he saw the Pullman was running a special he booked it instead of his normal roomette.

 

[Trogdor]

This last week we were in LA for a vacation. On Thursday we took an UBER to the airport for our 9:25 red eye return flight to east coast. The flight was delayed, delayed, then cancelled. We ended up spending the night in the airport and catching a 2:30pm next day flight. Total time lost due to flight cancel was 20 hours. And that STILL was preferred over train travel time.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Nobody in this thread ever claimed a three-night, coast-to-coast LD train was time-competitive with flying.

 

[jruff001]

You didn’t read any of my posts very carefully, so I’m not sure why I should entertain a reply...

I never stated that there were a lot of business travelers on the Night Owl. I only stated that I use it for business, and that it is a well patronized train, probably not exclusively used for leisure (the claim I was contesting was “night trains worldwide only work for tourism”).

You are right; I did mis-read your post. My apologies.

It is very easy to find the average load factor of all Amtrak trains. Just do 5 minutes of research.

Yes I know that. I was wondering if there was data that showed whether the purpose of someone's trip was business or leisure, and if so what that is based on.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yes I know that. I was wondering if there was data that showed whether the purpose of someone's trip was business or leisure, and if so what that is based on.

That data doesn’t exist for flights either.

 

[jruff001]

That data doesn’t exist for flights either.

I don't know, I have gotten surveys from airlines after flights and been asked what the purpose of my trip was. (Maybe Amtrak does this too but I don't remember getting one of those, unless they are caught in a spam filter.) Of course the results would be proprietary and so not publicly available.

Also I think you can sorta extrapolate with flights based on fare and travel patterns. There is a good chance that someone flying into a city Tuesday and leaving within the next day or so without staying over the weekend, and who bought an expensive ticket not too far in advance of departure, is likely on a business trip (or a family emergency, but that would be much rarer). And someone flying somewhere for a week or two over a weekend is likely traveling for leisure - remember the old "Saturday Night Stay" rule. There is a good chance a group of four going to Orlando for a week is a family on vacation, etc.

Yes I know that is far from perfect but airlines certainly target who they think is traveling on business and make those fares higher since it is likely being paid by OPM (Other People's Money - i.e., the client or employer) and not the traveler.

 

[MARC Rider]

Yes I know that is far from perfect but airlines certainly target who they think is traveling on business and make those fares higher since it is likely being paid by OPM (Other People's Money - i.e., the client or employer) and not the traveler.

I will say that when I used to ride overnight trains for business purposes, I got a lot of extra scrutiny. After a while, I just started having them reimburse me for the coach fare only, and I would pay the sleeper accommodation charges out of my own pocket. Also, our travel systems couldn't really handle Amtrak travel outside of the Northeast Corridor (where it was actually the mandated form of travel.) When I filled out reimbursement vouchers, I had to designate my Amtrak rides as "public transportation." I hope it's been long enough that some auditor doesn't come out of the blue to me in retirement and start asking me about a 2012 trip I took on the Silver Star, or something.

Also, while there are cult fanatics like me who ride the long distance trains for business (there was even once an article about it in the Washington Post), the vast majority of Amtrak's long-distance riders are probably not doing so.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Also, while there are cult fanatics like me who ride the long distance trains for business (there was even once an article about it in the Washington Post), the vast majority of Amtrak's long-distance riders are probably not doing so.

Yeah I was questioned about my Amtrak trips as well... with one management company it was just easier to take the flight they wanted to book me on.

While the typical Amtrak LD is not filled with business travelers it’s also not filled with tourists and “experiential” travelers. It’s a pretty big mix of people traveling for all different reasons.

 

[Qapla]

The problem/confusion comes when people only look at "sleepers" ... coach is often filled with people using Amtrak as "transportation" not because they are on a business trip or a vacation.

 

[jruff001]

I don't know how my company would react to me traveling Amtrak for a business trip since it takes so long and sleepers are expensive. I travel quite a bit for work but have never been able to coordinate those trips with Amtrak's schedules for anything that even remotely makes any sense, and I have zero desire to spend PTO days (or weekends) (or travel overnight in coach) on what is essentially business travel, so I have never even asked.

 

[zephyr17]

As noted in a prior post, I was able to use Amtrak twice for long distance business trips. Both required some arm wrestling with finance, both required that I pay the accommodation charge myself, and both required use of some PTO. They were at two separate companies

Most companies are not set up for overnight rail business travel and it can be a challenge to navigate it. You have to be quite motivated to take it on. Even when successful, it usually imposes costs in terms of unreimbursed expenses and personal time.

Those trips represent a very small exception in my own travel on business. I almost always just flew.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't know how my company would react to me traveling Amtrak for a business trip since it takes so long and sleepers are expensive. I travel quite a bit for work but have never been able to coordinate those trips with Amtrak's schedules for anything that even remotely makes any sense, and I have zero desire to spend PTO days (or weekends) (or travel overnight in coach) on what is essentially business travel, so I have never even asked.

I used to get a set travel stipend that was the same amount the plane ticket they booked for my coworkers was. That would usually cover the trip. Some would be a little less, some a little more so it would all even out.

When a new manager wouldn’t give me the stipend I asked to be booked Southwest, that way I could cancel the southwest ticket, keep that amount, and then travel however I wanted.

 

[jruff001]

I used to get a set travel stipend that was the same amount the plane ticket they booked for my coworkers was. That would usually cover the trip. Some would be a little less, some a little more so it would all even out.

When a new manager wouldn’t give me the stipend I asked to be booked Southwest, that way I could cancel the southwest ticket, keep that amount, and then travel however I wanted.

Like a lot of (or even most, larger) companies now, we use a third party online travel agency vendor and have to do all of our travel and hotel bookings through them. When I go to book travel for a trip, Amtrak doesn't even show up as an option. So I am sure I would have to jump through multiple administrative exception hoops and hurdles if I ever stumbled upon a trip where taking Amtrak might actually make sense. Which I don't ever see happening in the remainder of my working life, so it is a non-issue.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Like a lot of (or even most, larger) companies now, we use a third party online travel agency vendor and have to do all of our travel and hotel bookings through them. When I go to book travel for a trip, Amtrak doesn't even show up as an option. So I am sure I would have to jump through multiple administrative exception hoops and hurdles if I ever stumbled upon a trip where taking Amtrak might actually make sense. Which I don't ever see happening in the remainder of my working life, so it is a non-issue.

If you don’t want it to make sense, it never will. If you want it to make sense it will.

 

[zephyr17]

Luckily, when I did my trips, travel was still done in house. They had a travel agency and portal you could use, but it wasn't mandatory. In a few cities where there were hotel contracts you had to use those hotels.

 

[nendee]

Are there any other “easy” overnight journeys that make sense like the Boston/DC trip? I think we can agree the NYC/Chicago trip is probably a little less desirable - but perhaps there are other connecting journeys?

 

[nendee]

Okay, but this is how this thread started:


In no way shape or form is taking the train from New York to Chicago faster than flying.

If you don’t want it to make sense, it never will. If you want it to make sense it will.

With remote working, reduced travel and general Covid hangover, asking now if you can take an overnight Amtrak for the currently now very rare business trip is the last thing a responsible business wants to think about.

 

[jruff001]

If you don’t want it to make sense, it never will. If you want it to make sense it will.

I am based in Florida. I have to go to the Milwaukee area once in a while for a day or two of meetings. Tell me how to do that on Amtrak without it taking an entire week.

 

[Tlcooper44]

With remote working, reduced travel and general Covid hangover, asking now if you can take an overnight Amtrak for the currently now very rare business trip is the last thing a responsible business wants to think about.

I admit I think it would be hard anywhere but the NEC, because the train is now part of the culture in the northeast.

I could see an argument for coach. It’s very cheap, and can save on hotel cost. If sleeper is more your style, you can pay the difference.

 

[jruff001]

I admit I think it would be hard anywhere but the NEC, because the train is now part of the culture in the northeast.

I could see an argument for coach. It’s very cheap, and can save on hotel cost. If sleeper is more your style, you can pay the difference.

No one (except maybe a couple of people here) would volunteer to sit in coach all night or pay a lot of money for a sleeper to go on a business trip, when they could get free air fare and hotel accommodations from their company.

 

[Tlcooper44]

No one (except maybe a couple of people here) would volunteer to sit in coach all night or pay a lot of money for a sleeper to go on a business trip, when they could get free air fare and hotel accommodations from their company.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Exvalley]

No one (except maybe a couple of people here) would volunteer to sit in coach all night or pay a lot of money for a sleeper to go on a business trip, when they could get free air fare and hotel accommodations from their company.

I would never travel overnight in coach for business. Not when the alternative is a nice hotel room.

I have been able to get overnight travel in a roomette approved - but it took some effort. It has worked three times on the Lake Shore Limited. It helps that I can get done with meetings in the evening and have until 9:30 PM to board the train in Chicago. I was able to make the case that the overnight train saved me a night in a hotel and the cost of the Amtrak trip was less than than the cost of a hotel night and airfare combined.

The problem is that the next day is pretty much shot. If I fly, I can be back in the office well before noon. I've tried to explain that I can work on the train, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. For this reason, I think that the days of getting overnight train travel approved are numbered.