Why does the Empire Builder lose so much money?

[erierail]

Why would any one expect any Amtrak long distance train to cover their costs. They are labor intensive, require lots of capital investment for equipment and must pay their host roads for access.

The private railroads could not turn a profit when they operated an robust service over their own track, shared joint union stations, and costs partially off set by express and generous mail contracts.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

the fatcat pension costs sink the profitability

Could you elaborate on this idea please?

I don't know anything about Amtrak's pensions or where to begin to look for info. Thanks.

 

[CCC1007]

the fatcat pension costs sink the profitability

Could you elaborate on this idea please?I don't know anything about Amtrak's pensions or where to begin to look for info. Thanks.

Why don't we actually check for factual information before declaring that Amtrak pays a fatcat pension.

 

[erierail]

I would image slot of Amtrak pensions go into the rail road retirement plans as and are per union contracts.

 

[neroden]

The pension costs for pre-1971 employees through Railroad Retirement were actually very high (back when railroads as a whole employeed way more people). Since the fund is funded by corporations proportional to *current* employment levels, and freight railroads employed far fewer people from the 1970s-present day, for several decades Amtrak was paying a disproportionate percentage of them, i.e. Amtrak has been subsidizing freight railroad pensions. I think this is becoming less and less of an issue over time as the pre-1971 employees collecting those pensions die.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Railroad Retirement Pensions are no longer as cushy as they were back in the Golden Days.

Also Amtrak employees do not pay into Social Security like most jobs, they contribute to Railroad Retirement and based on the Pensions of Retired Railroaders I know they are by no means "cushy"!

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

Best to my recollection it began about 1980 ... if you get my drift.

 

[Bob Dylan]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

Best to my recollection it began about 1980 ... if you get my drift.

I do and I think you get mine!

 

[afigg]

If the Empire Builder is Amtrak's buisiest LD train, and ....

The Coast Starlight is Amtrak's busiest LD train.

The CS currently has the most passengers among the LD trains, but only a few years ago, the EB easily had more annual passengers. Pulling up older monthly reports, in FY2010, the EB had 533,493 passengers, the CS was in 2nd place among the LD trains with 444,205 passengers. In FY2011, the delays on the EB route began to with a hit in On-Time Performance and the EB ridership fell to 469,167 passengers. But that still more than the CS at 426,t584 passengers. After FY2011, the problems and delays on the EB route got much worse, causing a sharp decline in ridership.

With the BNSF upgrades on the route and a fall-off in Bakken related traffic, the EB has recovered in OTP, but it takes longer to get the passengers back from the problems as bad as the EB had. If the EB can get back to the FY2009 and FY2010 passenger numbers, that will help to reduce the EB total operating losses.

The CS ridership appears to be in more of an overall slow growth mode (in recent years). The completion in the next year or so of the upgrades on the Cascades corridor and some of the various track projects on the corridor segments in CA could help to boost ridership on the CS in the coming years.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

Would any of it have to do with probably 130,000 out of 151,000 in to and out of MSP, going between MSP, MKE, CHI, and intermediate shops?

 

[BCL]

The CS currently has the most passengers among the LD trains, but only a few years ago, the EB easily had more annual passengers. Pulling up older monthly reports, in FY2010, the EB had 533,493 passengers, the CS was in 2nd place among the LD trains with 444,205 passengers. In FY2011, the delays on the EB route began to with a hit in On-Time Performance and the EB ridership fell to 469,167 passengers. But that still more than the CS at 426,t584 passengers. After FY2011, the problems and delays on the EB route got much worse, causing a sharp decline in ridership.

But it's a bit difficult to say the EB is one route. Is there another route with that kind of split?

And what does "busiest" mean? The EB is a long route and passengers are getting on and off. The CS is one of the most packed LD routes that Amtrak operates.

 

[greatcats]

Quite a few years ago when I was working in NJ Transit Crew Dispatchers in Hoboken, we came across a really stupid article in the NY Post, a rag paper: The headline on the front page read: "Ticket Puncher makes $103,000 in one year. ". It was about a Metro North trainman who made that much in one year. They were trying to make a scandal out of this matter. Several of us signed a letter of protest to the editor. This man was the type willing to work any job called for, work seven days a week, and not be home very much. Yes, the railroad pays decent money, but if one works strictly 40 hours per week, the wages will be good, but not fabulous. The man who was the subject of this trash journalism EARNED his hefty pay checks !

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The CS currently has the most passengers among the LD trains, but only a few years ago, the EB easily had more annual passengers. Pulling up older monthly reports, in FY2010, the EB had 533,493 passengers, the CS was in 2nd place among the LD trains with 444,205 passengers. In FY2011, the delays on the EB route began to with a hit in On-Time Performance and the EB ridership fell to 469,167 passengers. But that still more than the CS at 426,t584 passengers. After FY2011, the problems and delays on the EB route got much worse, causing a sharp decline in ridership.

But it's a bit difficult to say the EB is one route. Is there another route with that kind of split?

And what does "busiest" mean? The EB is a long route and passengers are getting on and off. The CS is one of the most packed LD routes that Amtrak operates.

Maybe the PM/TM metric is better for this purpose. The western LD routes usually top the LD ridership totals but they have more miles and more stops to pick up passengers.

PM/TM Report from FRA: http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L17387

The EB is around the middle with a PM/TM of 166. The CZ is slightly higher (168). The SWC comes out way ahead at 191. The Auto Train's is a whopping 377. The highest non Auto Train among LD is the CS at 222. Others above 200 are the SM (216) and the LSL (210). Next up are the SWC (191), CL (189), SS (182).

 

[JoeBas]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

When the Gordon Geckos took over a certain party...

 

[saxman]

Consider this aspect : Using the Southwest Chief as an example, the labor costs really add up. In terms of operating crews, never mind on board service, I have figured that it takes about 22 or 23 engineers, conductors, and assistant conductors to get this train from Chicago to Los Angeles. As another poster notes, The EB splits into sections. If an airplane is flown Chicago to the west coast, that involves one cockpit crew. I am all in favor of the trains, but maybe someone else can make an estimate of the crew costs that I've brought up.

Not sure how this compares to flying. Only one crew to operate ONE flight, but the Southwest Chief serves dozens of cities creating dozens more city pairs. You'd have to add in all those crews as well that operated those flight. Not to mention, most of the cities served don't have much commercial airline service.

 

[greatcats]

Granted, these are two different modes of travel, but the crew costs of the train must really amount to a bundle and that is my point. Yes, the train does serve many intermediate locations, but many of them handle only modest numbers of passengers - ex: Winslow and Needles. The service is important and should be maintained and improved, not nickel and dimed to death. And with my remark about crew costs, I am not criticizing the employees, most of whom do a great job under often difficult circumstances.

 

[Bob Dylan]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

When the Gordon Geckos took over a certain party...

Yep, "Greed is Good!" ( see 2008,the result of the 1980 Reagan Revolution" with it's Voodoo Economics,"Deregulation" and Union Busting!

 

[tricia]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

When the Gordon Geckos took over a certain party...

Yep, "Greed is Good!" ( see 2008,the result of the 1980 Reagan Revolution" with it's Voodoo Economics,"Deregulation" and Union Busting!

Um, I agree with you guys on this, but think you're over the no-politics line that helps keep this forum civil.

 

[Carolina Special]

Agree on the no-politics line. Pension economics and the impacts thereof are best left elsewhere, otherwise you risk turning off potential train supporters.

 

[Bob Dylan]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

When the Gordon Geckos took over a certain party...

Yep, "Greed is Good!" ( see 2008,the result of the 1980 Reagan Revolution" with it's Voodoo Economics,"Deregulation" and Union Busting!

Um, I agree with you guys on this, but think you're over the no-politics line that helps keep this forum civil.

It's not Politics, it's History! You could look it up!
As the Late, Great Harry Truman used to say from the Platform on his Rail Car during his Famous 1948 Whistle Stop Campaign where audiences would yell out "Give 'em Hell Harry! ", " I just tell the Truth and they think it's Hell! "

 

[JoeBas]

When did it become fashionable to bash American workers for having a decent pension and benefits?

When the Gordon Geckos took over a certain party...

Yep, "Greed is Good!" ( see 2008,the result of the 1980 Reagan Revolution" with it's Voodoo Economics,"Deregulation" and Union Busting!

Um, I agree with you guys on this, but think you're over the no-politics line that helps keep this forum civil.

IMO, if that line was crossed, it was crossed the moment someone mentioned "Fat cat pensions" as the source of all Amtrak's woes...

 

[tommylicious]

the fatcat pension costs sink the profitability

Could you elaborate on this idea please?

I don't know anything about Amtrak's pensions or where to begin to look for info. Thanks.

$1.2 Billion liability on the 2014 balance sheet.

 

[Ryan]

Ok, now elaborate on why you think that makes them "Fat Cat" pensions? How many people are we talking about here? How much in pensions do each of them earn individually? How much do you think they deserve after a lifetime of hard labor away from home for long and inconvenient hours?

 

[neroden]

And what does "busiest" mean? The EB is a long route and passengers are getting on and off. The CS is one of the most packed LD routes that Amtrak operates.

Maybe the PM/TM metric is better for this purpose. The western LD routes usually top the LD ridership totals but they have more miles and more stops to pick up passengers.

PM/TM Report from FRA: http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L17387

It's interesting to look at that report and realize that, *8 years after it was mandated*, Amtrak has still not managed to report short-term avoidable costs. I strongly suspect every single train covers its short-term avoidable costs, but Amtrak hasn't bothered to make its accounting functional enough to report that.

Anyway, the PM/TM is interesting. Sorting from highest to lowest:

377 Auto Train

336 Lynchburg

272 Newport News

258 Carolinian

228 Adirondack

225 NE Regional Boston-Washingon

222 Coast Starlight

216 Silver Meteor

214 Pennsylvanian

210 Lake Shore Limited

202 Richmond

196 Acela Express

191 Southwest Chief

189 Capitol Limited

182 Silver Star

176 Norfolk

176 Texas Eagle

166 Empire Builder

161 City of New Orleans

160 Blue Water

160 Ethan Allen Express

157 Crescent

153 Pacific Surfliner

151 Hiawatha

146 Wolverine

145 Keystone

144 Palmetto

137 Vermonter

134 Sunset Limited

133 Empire Service

132 Lincoln Service (Chicago - St Louis)

128 Cascades

124 San Joaquin

123 Cardinal

119 Illini/Saluki (Carbondale)

117 Pere Marquette (Grand Rapids)

115 Maple Leaf

112 New Haven - Springfield

93 Carl Sandburg / Illinois Zephyr (Quincy)

85 Kansas City - St Louis

85 Downeaster

85 Heartland Flyer

84 Capitol Corridor

72 Piedmont

60 Hoosier State

This is an interesting metric. You know, this may actually be a better proxy for "how well is this train doing financially" than any of Amtrak's half-baked accounting.

If I were a state starting a new service, I would have my go/no-go threshold set at a PM/TM of roughly 88. (This would require three buses to supply similar capacity, and three *competent* bus drivers should cost at least as much as an engineer, conductor, and one on-board service person.)

 

[tommylicious]

The pension costs are why we have such poor staffing. Not saying it's right, but that's what's going on and why Amtrak looking to cut/save so much headcount from the trains. Salary plus a ton of pension liabilities which accrue in addition to the wages. This is why on board service is so spotty and only declining further it sadly seems. Not saying it's right, but that's the calculus.